Theism vs Atheism

[AndyH]

I see...for a moment there I was worried about aliens

"To Serve Man"

:lol:

 

[Yanquetino]

I would be most curious to hear how theists would respond to this short essay by A C Grayling: God and Disaster

 

[klapauzius]

I would be most curious to hear how theists would respond to this short essay by A C Grayling: God and Disaster

With denial, like to any other logical argument?

 

[GregH]

If anyone out there is interested in religion as a topic, I'd like to recommend a book.
"The Evolution of GOD" by Robert Wright. Unlike many of the other "atheist" books (Dawkins, Hitchins, Harris etc) this book takes a purely historical look at the whole concept of gods dating from early tribal cultures through early Jewish polytheism on to Yaweah monotheism... A lot of the book deals with Jesus the man and his likely aspirations from a historical context and more importantly the work of his disciples (mostly Paul) who invented the salvation story to sell Christianity to the Romans (Jesus' enemies as a messiah). The book also covers Mohamed and the evolution of Islam (for which there is much more documentation than for Judaism or Christianity) I found it a fascinating read.. It explains a lot!

I haven't read the book. However, I would have to disagree that the "salvation story" was merely an invention following Jesus' time on earth. The Old Testament (a.k.a. Hebrew Bible) seems to clearly, prophetically anticipate the Messiah and ultimately all the nations of the earth seeing the Light of God. The book of Daniel, specifically Chapter 9, seems to predict hundreds of years ahead of time the specific year when the Messiah ("anointed one") would be "cut off and have nothing", which we understand to be the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

There were a lot of "messiah's" around the time of Jesus... Jesus wasn't even really the most popular. The term Messiah from the Jewish perspective at the time meant someone to defeat the Roman occupiers and take the throne as king of the Jews (clearly he failed). His follows believed he would come back to life and fulfill his promise as Messiah but he did not (he was after all, dead).. It's hard to make a rebellious freedom fighter out to be the salvation of all mankind but this was Paul's creation. In the decades after Jesus' death, Paul (setting up the church abroad) and James (back in Judea) actually differed on a lot.. Would new believers have to be circumcised and eat kosher? Paul said no but many of Jesus' followers back home disagreed. The whole salvation story was really ripped off from many of the existing Roman pagan beliefs in an attempt to sell Christianity to the Romans (it worked!) it's hard to imagine where Christianity would have been today without Paul.. Just another failed Messiah I guess...

 

[Yanquetino]

 

[Ready2plugin]

There were a lot of "messiah's" around the time of Jesus... Jesus wasn't even really the most popular. The term Messiah from the Jewish perspective at the time meant someone to defeat the Roman occupiers and take the throne as king of the Jews (clearly he failed). His follows believed he would come back to life and fulfill his promise as Messiah but he did not (he was after all, dead).. It's hard to make a rebellious freedom fighter out to be the salvation of all mankind but this was Paul's creation. In the decades after Jesus' death, Paul (setting up the church abroad) and James (back in Judea) actually differed on a lot.. Would new believers have to be circumcised and eat kosher? Paul said no but many of Jesus' followers back home disagreed. The whole salvation story was really ripped off from many of the existing Roman pagan beliefs in an attempt to sell Christianity to the Romans (it worked!) it's hard to imagine where Christianity would have been today without Paul.. Just another failed Messiah I guess...

Okay I've been enjoying this discussion for awhile, but it's time to jump in here. So are you saying that Jesus lived but did not rise for the dead? There were 100's of people who saw him in the days after the crucifixion. I agree that He left us before His work was completed, and that is way those of us who believe in Him do expect His return someday. He did use Paul, even though Paul was responsible for trying to first stop Christianity, to expand the church.

My faith really started when the most beautiful woman I have ever known, my grandmother, died. The night before she went, she called my mom into her bedroom in the middle of the night and introduced her to some of her long dead relatives that were standing beside my grandmonther's bed. Of course my mom could not see them, but she stated that the were there to take her to Heaven. My grandmother was still expected to live for some time, still lived in her own home, but my mom went to visit her for a couple of weeks, because she had a feeling that she needed to be there. That night my grandmother died in her sleep. I believe everyone has a choice to believe or not to believe. I chose to believe. For me, living as a blessing that I will never be able to fully appreciate, but I try. Having faith and doing my best to show how to respect others as well as the planet we are so blessed to be living on, goes hand in hand.

 

[abasile]

I would be most curious to hear how theists would respond to this short essay by A C Grayling: God and Disaster

That essay seems to implicitly assume that suffering and death are always evil, and that a truly good God would prevent suffering. However, if one views our life on earth as a prelude to eternity, and union with Christ as an ultimate goal, then earthly suffering has positive value. I remember C.S. Lewis, a prominent Christian author of the last century, asserting that suffering is a chisel that God uses to shape our character. I have observed this to be true in my own life. We often experience greater personal and spiritual growth through life's trials than when everything seems to be going well.

When lives are swept away by natural disasters, we are reminded that to everyone is appointed a time to die. Sometimes death comes unexpectedly. The Bible reminds us not to take our future on this Earth for granted. That is not to say that we shouldn't plan ahead or take good care of our bodies. But it is a reminder to seek to be right with God every day.

Of course, death and suffering are also frequently the consequences of human sin. Nowadays, some of our natural disasters are likely the consequences of poor stewardship of our planet, for instance. And there has always been more than enough injustice to go round.

According to the Bible (Paul's writing, actually), God has placed all of us on earth at different times and in different places in order that we might seek Him. Let's face it; people tend to be more motivated to seek God when they encounter life challenges. Even though I seek to avoid suffering, I have no problem with knowing that God will use suffering as a tool to shape me. I find it perfectly appropriate to thank God when things go well for me. With spiritual maturity comes the ability to be thankful for difficulties as well.

 

[Yanquetino]

I would be most curious to hear how theists would respond to this short essay by A C Grayling: God and Disaster

That essay seems to implicitly assume that suffering and death are always evil, and that a truly good God would prevent suffering. However, if one views our life on earth as a prelude to eternity, and union with Christ as an ultimate goal, then earthly suffering has positive value. I remember C.S. Lewis, a prominent Christian author of the last century, asserting that suffering is a chisel that God uses to shape our character. I have observed this to be true in my own life. We often experience greater personal and spiritual growth through life's trials than when everything seems to be going well.

When lives are swept away by natural disasters, we are reminded that to everyone is appointed a time to die. Sometimes death comes unexpectedly. The Bible reminds us not to take our future on this Earth for granted. That is not to say that we shouldn't plan ahead or take good care of our bodies. But it is a reminder to seek to be right with God every day.

Of course, death and suffering are also frequently the consequences of human sin. Nowadays, some of our natural disasters are likely the consequences of poor stewardship of our planet, for instance. And there has always been more than enough injustice to go round.

According to the Bible (Paul's writing, actually), God has placed all of us on earth at different times and in different places in order that we might seek Him. Let's face it; people tend to be more motivated to seek God when they encounter life challenges. Even though I seek to avoid suffering, I have no problem with knowing that God will use suffering as a tool to shape me. I find it perfectly appropriate to thank God when things go well for me. With spiritual maturity comes the ability to be thankful for difficulties as well.

Ah...! So... this omniscient, omnipotent, "loving" god allowed more than a quarter of a million men, women, children, babies, and animals to drown in the Indonesia and Japan tsunamis, in utter, horrific, gasping, desperate terror, to "shape their character"...? To "seek him," even though the vast, vast majority of those victims knew nothing about your Christian god? Your answer to Grayling's essay is that people pray to god after such disasters to express that they are "thankful for such difficulties"...? Because such suffering and death actually have "positive value"...?

Wow. I'll pass on that deity, thanks! Let's sum up here:

• Is he able and willing to prevent such suffering? Then why is there suffering?
• Is he unable but willing to prevent such suffering? Then he is not omnipotent.
• Is he able but unwilling to prevent such suffering (as you assert)? Then he is vile.
• Is he both unable and unwilling to prevent such suffering? Then why call him "god"?

 

[AndyH]

Of course, death and suffering are also frequently the consequences of human sin. Nowadays, some of our natural disasters are likely the consequences of poor stewardship of our planet, for instance. And there has always been more than enough injustice to go round.

When one sits down to play chess, they accept the rules of the game, including the fact that pieces will be removed from the board in the course of the game. The participants are fully aware that they will stand up at some point and leave the game behind.

Consider the possibility that this is an absolutely amazing playground where the participants enter voluntarily in order to have experiences not available to them in their natural state. They select a group of very close friends that they trust in order to arrange the 'stage play'. For one to experience betrayal, a trusted friend agrees to experience being betrayer. Some come for a short experience, some plan to stay much longer. They don't think of leaving the game as 'death' any more than an Earthly motorist fears parking their car - they're both using a vehicle that provides the mobility they desire. One twist of this experience is that in order to have the fullest experience, we temporarily forget who we really are. In spite of our friends stepping in from time to time to remind us, many have started to feel isolated - disconnected - and the mythology of separateness has grown over the years.

Non-domesticated animals remember this and they prefer the feeling and energy of a young, frisky, body. They remember that they can step out when the vehicle doesn't meet their needs. Sometimes they'll simply lie down and separate from the physical. Others, probably the more x-treme critters decide instead to run in front of a car. Chances are very good that they get off the ride over here, and circle around to get back in line for another go.

Don't forget to remember who you are.

edit...fixed quote. Sorry/Thanks Yanquetino.

 

[Yanquetino]

AndyH:

I didn't write that quote above: abasile did. Please edit that, okay?

I am not sure I understand your analogy with a "game" such as chess. "Voluntarily" sit down to play according to the rules? Experiences not available to us in our "natural" state?

 

[davewill]

Consider the possibility that this is an absolutely amazing playground where the participants enter voluntarily in order to have experiences not available to them in their natural state.

Consider the possibility that everything you see is real and death is final. Now...which way would you rather be incorrect?

I'd rather start with the assumption that I'm in the real world. If Morpheus comes along and proves it's not, THEN I'll change my mind...

 

[klapauzius]

I would be most curious to hear how theists would respond to this short essay by A C Grayling: God and Disaster

That essay seems to implicitly assume that suffering and death are always evil, and that a truly good God would prevent suffering. However, if one views our life on earth as a prelude to eternity, and union with Christ as an ultimate goal, then earthly suffering has positive value. I remember C.S. Lewis, a prominent Christian author of the last century, asserting that suffering is a chisel that God uses to shape our character. I have observed this to be true in my own life. We often experience greater personal and spiritual growth through life's trials than when everything seems to be going well.

When lives are swept away by natural disasters, we are reminded that to everyone is appointed a time to die. Sometimes death comes unexpectedly. The Bible reminds us not to take our future on this Earth for granted. That is not to say that we shouldn't plan ahead or take good care of our bodies. But it is a reminder to seek to be right with God every day.

Of course, death and suffering are also frequently the consequences of human sin. Nowadays, some of our natural disasters are likely the consequences of poor stewardship of our planet, for instance. And there has always been more than enough injustice to go round.

According to the Bible (Paul's writing, actually), God has placed all of us on earth at different times and in different places in order that we might seek Him. Let's face it; people tend to be more motivated to seek God when they encounter life challenges. Even though I seek to avoid suffering, I have no problem with knowing that God will use suffering as a tool to shape me. I find it perfectly appropriate to thank God when things go well for me. With spiritual maturity comes the ability to be thankful for difficulties as well.

I thought I would not really continue this argument, but this seems a rather outrageous statement.Yanquetino already called you out on that, but I will take it one step further:

Are you suggesting, that the holocaust, the mass killings in Cambodia in the 70s and 80s, the mass murders committed in Bosnia in the 90s, Rwanda, are you seriously BELIEVING, that these were mere spiritual experiences or "life challenges"?

 

[AndyH]

Consider the possibility that this is an absolutely amazing playground where the participants enter voluntarily in order to have experiences not available to them in their natural state.

Consider the possibility that everything you see is real and death is final. Now...which way would you rather be incorrect?

I'd rather start with the assumption that I'm in the real world. If Morpheus comes along and proves it's not, THEN I'll change my mind...

Completely agree - one agrees to 'assume' the game is real - and they need to temporarily forget that it's a game - or the game wouldn't be much fun.

I used to fear death, and used to believe much of my Catholic background. But I cannot see 'death' as final because there is no death. Once you've been out of your body you'll probably agree.

Look at just part of the amazing complexity of this environment! We're so free we can choose to forget, we can choose bondage! But it'll all come rushing back when we give the body back to Mother Earth and head home. Fear not. Someone long ago reminded us that we'll do all that and more.

 

[Ready2plugin]

I thought I would not really continue this argument, but this seems a rather outrageous statement.Yanquetino already called you out on that, but I will take it one step further:

Are you suggesting, that the holocaust, the mass killings in Cambodia in the 70s and 80s, the mass murders committed in Bosnia in the 90s, Rwanda, are you seriously BELIEVING, that these were mere spiritual experiences or "life challenges"?

You got to be kidding me. These were not spiritual events. God did not create a perfect world, even He said it was "good" not even "great" let alone perfect. We have free will and with it some chose to do bad things with it. These tragic things that happened in history and even now are being done by man, not God. Some would argue that they were influenced by Satin through man, but that is another argument.

 

[AndyH]

AndyH:

I didn't write that quote above: abasile did. Please edit that, okay?

Fixed. I'm very sorry!

I am not sure I understand your analogy with a "game" such as chess. "Voluntarily" sit down to play according to the rules? Experiences not available to us in our "natural" state?

The game analogy is borrowed from Richard Bach. I like the way Neal Donald Walsch presents it in "The Little Soul and the Sun":

Once upon no time, there was a little Soul who said to God, "I know who I am."

And God said, "That's wonderful! Who are you?"

And the Little Soul shouted, "I'm the Light!"

God smiled a big smile. "That's right!" God exclaimed. "You are the Light."

The Little Soul was so happy, for it had figured out what all the souls in the Kingdom were there to figure out.

"Wow," said the Little Soul, "this is really cool!"

But soon, knowing who it was was not enough. The Little Soul felt stirrings inside, and now wanted to be who it was. And so the Little Soul went back to God (which is not a bad idea for all souls who want to be Who They Really Are) and said,

"Hi, God! Now that I know Who I am, is it okay for me to be it?"

And God said, "You mean you want to be Who You Already Are?"

"Well," replied the Little Soul," it's one thing to know Who I Am, and another thing altogether to actually be it. I want to feel what it's like to be the Light!"

"But you already are the Light," God repeated, smiling again.

"Yes, but I want to see what that feels like!" cried the Little Soul.

"Well," said God with a chuckle, "I suppose I should have known. You always were the adventuresome one."

Then God's expression changed. "There's only one thing..."

"What?" asked the Little Soul.

"Well, there is nothing else but the Light. You see, I created nothing but what you are; and so, there is no easy way for you to experience yourself as Who You Are, since there is nothing that you are not."

"Huh?" said the Little Soul, who was now a little confused.

"Think of it this way," said God. "You are like a candle in the Sun. Oh, you're there all right. Along with a million, gazillion other candles who make up the Sun. And the sun would not be the Sun without you. Nay, it would be a sun without one of its candles...and that would not be the Sun at all; for it would not shine as brightly. Yet, how to know yourself as the Light when you are amidst the Light -that is the question."

"Well," the Little Soul perked up, "you're God. Think of something!"

Once more God smiled. "I already have," God said. "Since you cannot see yourself as the Light when you are in the Light, we'll surround you with darkness."

"What's darkness?" the Little Soul asked.

God replied, "It is that which you are not."

"Will I be afraid of the dark?" cried the Little Soul.

"Only if you choose to be," God answered. "There is nothing, really, to be afraid of, unless you decide that there is. You see, we are making it all up. We are pretending."

"Oh," said the Little Soul, and felt better already.

Then God explained that, in order to experience anything at all, the exact opposite of it will appear. "It is a great gift," God said, "because without it, you could not know what anything is like. You could not know Warm without Cold, Up without Down, Fast without Slow. You could not know Left without Right, Here without There, Now without Then."

"And so," God concluded, "when you are surrounded with darkness, do not shake your fist and raise your voice and curse the darkness. Rather be a Light unto the darkness, and don't be mad about it. Then you will know Who You Really Are, and all others will know, too. Let your Light shine so that everyone will know how special you are!"

"You mean it's okay to let others see how special I am?" asked the Little Soul.

"Of course!" God chuckled. "It's very okay! But remember,'special' does not mean 'better.' Everybody is special, each in their own way! Yet many others have forgotten that. They will see that it is okay for them to be special only when you see that it is okay for you to be special."

"Wow," said the Little Soul, dancing and skipping and laughing and jumping with joy. "I can be as special as I want to be!"

"Yes, and you can start right now," said God, who was dancing and skipping and laughing right along with the Little Soul.

"What part of special do you want to be?"

"What part of special?" the Little Soul repeated. "I don't understand."

"Well," God explained, "being the Light is being special, and being special has a lot of parts to it. It is special to be kind. It is special to be gentle. It is special to be creative. It is special to be patient. Can you think of any other ways it is special to be?"

The Little Soul sat quietly for a moment. "I can think of lots of ways to be special!" the Little Soul then exclaimed. "It is special to be helpful. It is special to be sharing. It is special to be friendly. It is special to be considerate of others!"

"Yes!" God agreed, "and you can be all of those things, or any part of special you wish to be, at any moment. That's what it means to be the Light."

"I know what I want to be, I know what I want to be!" the Little Soul announced with great excitement. "I want to be the part of special called 'forgiving'. Isn't it special to be forgiving?"

"Oh, yes," God assured the Little Soul. "That is very special."

"Okay," said the Little Soul. "That's what I want to be. I want to be forgiving. I want to experience myself as that."

"Good," said God, "but there's one thing you should know."

The Little Soul was becoming a bit impatient now. It always seemed as though there were some complication.

"What is it?" the Little Soul sighed.

"There is no one to forgive."

"No one?" The Little Soul could hardly believe what had been said.

"No one!" God repeated. "Everything I have made is perfect. There is not a single soul in all creation less perfect than you. Look around you."

It was then that the Little Soul realized a large crowd had gathered. Souls had come from far and wide ~ from all over the Kingdom ~ for the word had gone forth that the Little Soul was having this extraordinary conversation with God, and everyone wanted to hear what they were saying. Looking at the countless other souls gathered there, the Little Soul had to agree. None appeared less wonderful, less magnificent, or less perfect than the Little Soul itself. Such was the wonder of the souls gathered around, and so bright was their Light, that the Little Soul could scarcely gaze upon them.

"Who, then, to forgive?" asked God.

"Boy, this is going to be no fun at all!" grumbled the Little Soul. "I wanted to experience myself as One Who Forgives. I wanted to know what that part of special felt like."

And the Little Soul learned what it must feel like to be sad. But just then a Friendly Soul stepped forward from the crowd.

"Not to worry, Little Soul," the Friendly Soul said, "I will help you."

"You will?" the Little Soul brightened. "But what can you do?"

"Why, I can give you someone to forgive!"

"You can?"

"Certainly!" chirped the Friendly Soul. "I can come into your next lifetime and do something for you to forgive."

"But why? Why would you do that?" the Little Soul asked. "You, who are a Being of such utter perfection! You, who vibrate with such a speed that it creates a Light so bright that I can hardly gaze upon you! What could cause you to want to slow down your vibration to such a speed that your bright Light would become dark and dense? What could cause you ~ who are so light that you dance upon the stars and move through the Kingdom with the speed of your thought--to come into my life and make yourself so heavy that you could do this bad thing?"

"Simple," the Friendly Soul said. "I would do it because I love you."

The Little Soul seemed surprised at the answer.

"Don't be so amazed," said the Friendly Soul, "you have done the same thing for me. Don't you remember? Oh, we have danced together, you and I, many times. Through the eons and across all the ages have we danced. Across all time and in many places have we played together. You just don't remember."

"We have both been All Of It. We have been the Up and the Down of it, the Left and the Right of it. We have been the Here and the There of it, the Now and the Then of it. We have been the male and the female, the good and the bad; we have both been the victim and the villain of it."

"Thus have we come together, you and I, many times before; each bringing to the other the exact and perfect opportunity to Express and to Experience Who We Really Are. And so," the Friendly Soul explained further, "I will come into your next lifetime and be the 'bad one' this time. I will do something really terrible, and then you can experience yourself as the One Who Forgives.

"But what will you do?" the Little Soul asked, just a little nervously, "that will be so terrible?"

"Oh," replied the Friendly Soul with a twinkle, "we'll think of something."

Then the Friendly Soul seemed to turn serious, and said in a quiet voice, "You are right about one thing, you know."

"What is that?" the Little Soul wanted to know.

"I will have to slow down my vibration and become very heavy to do this not-so-nice thing. I will have to pretend to be something very unlike myself. And so, I have but one favour to ask of you in return."

"Oh, anything, anything!" cried the Little Soul, and began to dance and sing, "I get to be forgiving, I get to be forgiving!"

Then the Little Soul saw that the Friendly Soul was remaining very quiet.

"What is it?" the Little Soul asked. "What can I do for you? You are such an angel to be willing to do this for me!"

"Of course this Friendly Soul is an angel!" God interrupted. "Everyone is! Always remember: I have sent you nothing but angels."

And so the Little Soul wanted more than ever to grant the Friendly Soul's request. "What can I do for you?" the Little Soul asked again.

"In the moment that I strike you and smite you," the Friendly Soul replied, "in the moment that I do the worst to you that you could possible imagine ~ in that very moment..."

"Yes?" the Little Soul interrupted, "yes...?""Remember Who I Really Am."

"Oh, I will!" cried the Little Soul, "I promise! I will always remember you as I see you right here, right now!"

"Good," said the Friendly Soul, "because, you see, I will have been pretending so hard, I will have forgotten myself. And if you do not remember me as I really am, I may not be able to remember for a very long time. And if I forget Who I Am, you may even forget Who You Are, and we will both be lost. Then we will need another soul to come along and remind us both of Who We Are."

"No, we won't!" the Little Soul promised again. "I will remember you! And I will thank you for bringing me this gift ~ the chance to experience myself as Who I Am.

" And so, the agreement was made. And the Little Soul went forth into a new lifetime, excited to be the Light, which was very special, and excited to be that part of special called Forgiveness.

And the Little Soul waited anxiously to be able to experience itself as Forgiveness, and to thank whatever other soul made it possible. And at all the moments in that new lifetime, whenever a new soul appeared on the scene, whether that new soul brought joy or sadness--and especially if it brought sadness--the Little Soul thought of what God had said.

"Always remember," God had smiled, "I have sent you nothing but angels."

Borrowed from here. Please return it to the shelf when you're finished.

 

[klapauzius]

I thought I would not really continue this argument, but this seems a rather outrageous statement.Yanquetino already called you out on that, but I will take it one step further:

Are you suggesting, that the holocaust, the mass killings in Cambodia in the 70s and 80s, the mass murders committed in Bosnia in the 90s, Rwanda, are you seriously BELIEVING, that these were mere spiritual experiences or "life challenges"?

You got to be kidding me. These were not spiritual events. God did not create a perfect world, even He said it was "good" not even "great" let alone perfect. We have free will and with it some chose to do bad things with it. These tragic things that happened in history and even now are being done by man, not God. Some would argue that they were influenced by Satin through man, but that is another argument.

No this is actually quite serious. If we have free will, then there cannot be an omnipotent God, right? Simply because we can oppose it if that were true (why would "it" be a "he" btw?). At this point God would be just a very powerful being, but actually would not really be "God" anymore...
This would be more like the Greek Gods...Is that what you had in mind?

Even so, what do you think the role of this God would be then?

Suppose your children play in the yard (i.e. your "creation" ) and are attacked by a bear. Would you help them? Or just watch and see how things play out?
And how would you think of parents (i.e. a "father"), who would do such a thing?

Wouldn't you agree that by the act of creating a world, where there is pain, suffering and fear (of death), the creator would have to take on some responsibility. Even more so, since its creatures cannot really opt out of this crazy cruel world.

So overall, this seems to be a rather twisted worldview.
The good news is, there is an alternative explanation of the world, and it is much more sane....

 

[klapauzius]

"Thus have we come together, you and I, many times before; each bringing to the other the exact and perfect opportunity to Express and to Experience Who We Really Are. And so," the Friendly Soul explained further, "I will come into your next lifetime and be the 'bad one' this time. I will do something really terrible, and then you can experience yourself as the One Who Forgives.

Borrowed from here. Please return it to the shelf when you're finished.

Wow, that is one piece of twisted morale...
So say the Nazis are the "Friendly Soul"?
You can fill in the rest..

Or, the victims family should be grateful to the murderer, because he/she showed them how much they loved e.g. their murdered child?
Remind me, why are we putting the "friendly souls" in jail?


DO you believe this seriously? Or are you just naive and think "doing something terrible" means stealing "little souls" cookies? It would be time then to open your eyes and take a look around...Maybe not in your cozy little neighborhood, but in the real world?

 

[Ready2plugin]

I thought I would not really continue this argument, but this seems a rather outrageous statement.Yanquetino already called you out on that, but I will take it one step further:

Are you suggesting, that the holocaust, the mass killings in Cambodia in the 70s and 80s, the mass murders committed in Bosnia in the 90s, Rwanda, are you seriously BELIEVING, that these were mere spiritual experiences or "life challenges"?

You got to be kidding me. These were not spiritual events. God did not create a perfect world, even He said it was "good" not even "great" let alone perfect. We have free will and with it some chose to do bad things with it. These tragic things that happened in history and even now are being done by man, not God. Some would argue that they were influenced by Satin through man, but that is another argument.

No this is actually quite serious. If we have free will, then there cannot be an omnipotent God, right? Simply because we can oppose it if that were true (why would "it" be a "he" btw?). At this point God would be just a very powerful being, but actually would not really be "God" anymore...
This would be more like the Greek Gods...Is that what you had in mind?

Even so, what do you think the role of this God would be then?

Suppose your children play in the yard (i.e. your "creation" ) and are attacked by a bear. Would you help them? Or just watch and see how things play out?
And how would you think of parents (i.e. a "father"), who would do such a thing?

Wouldn't you agree that by the act of creating a world, where there is pain, suffering and fear (of death), the creator would have to take on some responsibility. Even more so, since its creatures cannot really opt out of this crazy cruel world.

So overall, this seems to be a rather twisted worldview.
The good news is, there is an alternative explanation of the world, and it is much more sane....

God did not create us to be robots....we have the choice to love Him or not. He rejoices at the those that turn away from sin to follow him....why would He make us any other way? I know you will keep to your atheist views, which is fine. Like I said we can all make our own choice in this world...it will be harder to do the same in the next . Humor me and just take a look at this....Rich Deem states it better than I can. Thanks, I have to save my 5 year old from playing with the bear while my 12 month takes a bath by herself...hey what can happen!

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evilandsuffering.html

 

[Yanquetino]

The game analogy is borrowed from Richard Bach. I like the way Neal Donald Walsch presents it in "The Little Soul and the Sun"

Ah... well... a kind of "sweet" fairy tale, but --of course-- based upon fairies: "god" and "soul." To date, not a shred of verifiable, empirical evidence suggests that either one exists. There is no "ghost in the machine." We are the machine. And when the machine dies... we cease to exist.

Who am I? Thanks to the scientific advances initiated with the Enlightenment, I know I am a homo sapiens (although I often question the adjective), just one of an incredibly vast myriad of related life forms that have evolved over billions of years through natural selection on this planet. And just think: not one of our ancestors failed to reproduce! That makes me and you the truly lucky ones, and we should make the most of our 80 or so turns on this carousel around the sun while the ride lasts. We get one chance at life, and it would be shameful to squander it, hoping instead that there will be a "better" existence after we die.

 

[klapauzius]

Thanks, I have to save my 5 year old from playing with the bear while my 12 month takes a bath by herself...hey what can happen!

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/evilandsuffering.html

The worst? As good parents we would not want to take chances.

The link you mentions points to yet another text, where it is said that violence and suffering are morally acceptable and according to the bible not a bad thing...
I guess the Taliban are relying on similar sources.