possibility of future mod to vehicle to allow 18kW AC Chrge?

[smkettner]

I doubt there will be much improvement in charging power until Nissan installs a 35+ kWh battery.

 

[neofightr]

I suggest you look up the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act...

You do realize this directly violates the battery warranty right?

No need to look up that 1975 act. I have the Nissan warranty book right in front of me with an obvious disclaimer that makes it crystal clear that using non-nissan equipment violates the warranty.

This is what the 1975 act mandates by the way.

 

[GregH]

IMHO we'd be better off pushing for more 25-50kW DCQC stations than to push for integrated 18kW AC onboard charging AND the upgrading of public EVSEs to support 80A rather than the much more common 30A.

I think you're missing something.... I think it's quite a bit more money to buy and install DCFC than 10-20 kW AC. Further, I think the 10-20 kW AC will be "backward compatible" with existing vehicle J1772 ports that can only go as high as 6.6 or 3.3 kW. So, I think there's an argument to be made for the competitiveness of the 10-20 kW AC choice, from the standpoint of decision-making as to installing public EVSE, especially if, in the end, it costs not "that" much more installed cost than under-10kW AC.

No doubt a new 80A capable EVSE is a lot cheaper to install than a DCQC (at the station level). That wasn't my point. I was merely speculating as to the future momentum of this movement. In the next few years are we likely to see more 80A EVSEs or DCQCs in public locations? If you were building a new EV to market in 2015 or 2016 and you were trying to decide what kind of charging capabilities to include, would you (the manufacturer) pay for a higher power on board charger or just slap on the DCQC interface?

Or from the consumer side, would you rather have a DCQC port or an 18kW onboard charger? (assuming both cost the same.. although the incremental cost of the 18kW charger is probably a lot higher than the DCQC port). Yeah I know.. why not both right? It's just a matter of $$...

Some of the Teslas can pull 80A AC... is there a push from the drivers to have 80A EVSEs installed in public? How successful have they been?

 

[cwerdna]

Every time you use it you are cutting a chunk of the total lifespan of the batteries.
Nissan just won't come out and say that.

Source?

I guess you haven't seen http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14271" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=341828#p341828" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Don't worry, in a few very short years we will have quick-change battery replacement stations much like we have jiffy lubes now and enhanced battery packs that make this discussion obsolete.

I guess you haven't heard of Better Place and what happened to them (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=295700#p295700" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

 

[neofightr]

Every time you use it you are cutting a chunk of the total lifespan of the batteries.
Nissan just won't come out and say that.

Source?

I guess you haven't seen http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14271" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=341828#p341828" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Don't worry, in a few very short years we will have quick-change battery replacement stations much like we have jiffy lubes now and enhanced battery packs that make this discussion obsolete.

I guess you haven't heard of Better Place and what happened to them (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=295700#p295700" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

Wow, just wow.
I don't know why I need to justify this to you but screw it, if this helps somebody else then so be it.

Ironically the source is right in front on your nose, i.e. the owner's manual and on this very site!
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss#Battery_Aging_Model" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"A question that is often asked is whether L2 charging (240 volts, 16 amps generally) is harmful to the battery. To put the question in perspective, you need to know that charging speed is measured by the C-rate, where 1 C is the current necessary to charge the battery in one hour. Since the Leaf with 3.3 kw charging takes a full charge in about 7 hours, the charging rate is C/7 (1/7 C). There is one study which measured the amount of capacity loss as a function of charging rate. It turned out that C/2 (about 12 kw for the Leaf) was the sweet spot and that slower or faster charging speeds had higher rates of capacity loss."

And it case you still don't get it, there is a SWEET SPOT and the 30 minute or better fast charge ain't it. The car manual from Nissan even states it for pete's sake.

Note: to me capacity loss directly relates to usable battery life. You can play with semantics if you like but it doesnt matter.
Bottom line: the faster you charge the battery the shorter the usable life span.
Otherwise we would have laptops charging to full capacity in 15 minutes by using a charger plugged into your dryer outlet. Think before you question but go ahead and question.

Note: I really really hope the Idaho numbers hold up over time. My fear based on my engineering background is that the chemical composition breaks down over time (accelerating the loss) and that test can't answer to that because it can't fast forward time.
This is the missing piece of data.

I know about "better place" going belly up. Open your blinders and don't focus on just one example.
http://www.teslamotors.com/batteryswap" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you seriously don't think they are going to master this process within the next 3 years think again. Eventually all the car makers will design their EVs to make this work.
Note: There is no free lunch, this will cost money to the customer to use but they are promising it will be less than full tank of SUV gas.

BTW Apple might be buying Tesla just in case you think Tesla will go the way of "better place"

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

I would love to be able to do 20kW charging on the Leaf. currently, the unmodified Leaf is not even fully J1772 compliant. Nissan failed to meet the protocol even though it was well established before the Leaf went into production. the Leaf can't understand the pilot signal from a 20kW, or anything over 70A station including the CS 100, even though it can handle a charge from such stations because it regulates the charge on board. clipper creek is allowing Sun Country to install dual amp CS 100's that will charge the Leaf as well as all other EV's, but only at their respective rates determined by the charger in the car. I imagine these will be available to the public eventually. All of the stations that are slated for WA state will be 20kW capable. Sun Country is talking about expanding all over the US as it has with it's 1,000 stations across the Canada, so a 20kW mod for the charger in the Leaf could prove quite valuable fairly soon.

If there is a high amp mod out there that works, I'd consider it after my Lease ends. I suspect there are going to be tens of thousands of cheap used 2011-13 Leaf's unloaded on the market in the next year or two as the original leases end which could make the total cost of purchase and modification very affordable.

 

[jlsoaz]

I would love to be able to do 20kW charging on the Leaf. currently, the unmodified Leaf is not even fully J1772 compliant. Nissan failed to meet the protocol even though it was well established before the Leaf went into production. the Leaf can't understand the pilot signal from a 20kW, or anything over 70A station including the CS 100, even though it can handle a charge from such stations because it regulates the charge on board. clipper creek is allowing Sun Country to install dual amp CS 100's that will charge the Leaf as well as all other EV's, but only at their respective rates determined by the charger in the car. I imagine these will be available to the public eventually. All of the stations that are slated for WA state will be 20kW capable. Sun Country is talking about expanding all over the US as it has with it's 1,000 stations across the Canada, so a 20kW mod for the charger in the Leaf could prove quite valuable fairly soon.

If there is a high amp mod out there that works, I'd consider it after my Lease ends. I suspect there are going to be tens of thousands of cheap used 2011-13 Leaf's unloaded on the market in the next year or two as the original leases end which could make the total cost of purchase and modification very affordable.

Your thinking seems good and the Sun Country info in WA is appreciated.

I'd also love to be able to charge faster. There appears to be no chance that Nissan will take any initiative to bring faster public charging (or public charging of any sort) near to where I live. It's 40 miles to the nearest Blink L2 and 60 miles to the nearest DCFC. I did work with someone to get an L2 installed in between, but it's still just a 7.2kW device charging my 3.3 kW Leaf so the bottom line is that a drive home that used to take an hour takes about 4-5 hours in my Leaf. So, the issue isn't how much $ the Leaf costs me every month, but also how much time.

 

[jlsoaz]

No doubt a new 80A capable EVSE is a lot cheaper to install than a DCQC (at the station level). That wasn't my point. I was merely speculating as to the future momentum of this movement. In the next few years are we likely to see more 80A EVSEs or DCQCs in public locations? If you were building a new EV to market in 2015 or 2016 and you were trying to decide what kind of charging capabilities to include, would you (the manufacturer) pay for a higher power on board charger or just slap on the DCQC interface?

Or from the consumer side, would you rather have a DCQC port or an 18kW onboard charger? (assuming both cost the same.. although the incremental cost of the 18kW charger is probably a lot higher than the DCQC port). Yeah I know.. why not both right? It's just a matter of $$...

Some of the Teslas can pull 80A AC... is there a push from the drivers to have 80A EVSEs installed in public? How successful have they been?

Thanks Greg, I didn't mean to misinterpret or misrepresent your point.

On my side, I am not sure of the future momentum (where are we going with this), but it seems worth mulling over.

 

[TomT]

Alas, you are wrong once again...

I suggest you look up the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act...

You do realize this directly violates the battery warranty right?

No need to look up that 1975 act. I have the Nissan warranty book right in front of me with an obvious disclaimer that makes it crystal clear that using non-nissan equipment violates the warranty. This is what the 1975 act mandates by the way.

 

[smkettner]

Regardless, are you willing to drag this into court to force a warranty payment?
Choose your battles carefully.

 

[GregH]

I would love to be able to do 20kW charging on the Leaf. currently, the unmodified Leaf is not even fully J1772 compliant. Nissan failed to meet the protocol even though it was well established before the Leaf went into production. the Leaf can't understand the pilot signal from a 20kW, or anything over 70A station including the CS 100, even though it can handle a charge from such stations because it regulates the charge on board. clipper creek is allowing Sun Country to install dual amp CS 100's that will charge the Leaf as well as all other EV's, but only at their respective rates determined by the charger in the car. I imagine these will be available to the public eventually. All of the stations that are slated for WA state will be 20kW capable. Sun Country is talking about expanding all over the US as it has with it's 1,000 stations across the Canada, so a 20kW mod for the charger in the Leaf could prove quite valuable fairly soon.

If there is a high amp mod out there that works, I'd consider it after my Lease ends. I suspect there are going to be tens of thousands of cheap used 2011-13 Leaf's unloaded on the market in the next year or two as the original leases end which could make the total cost of purchase and modification very affordable.

? I charge off a 240V Clipper Creek CS-100 here at work (at a lowly 3.3kW). I know the eBoxes can pull 17kW from the unit. Perhaps the pilot signal isn't set for full power(?)... the eBoxes can set charge current on the dashboard.

[edit] correction.. The pilot on this CS-100 seems to be set to 60A..

 

[jlsoaz]

So, the question becomes, could the Leaf (I have a 2012) be modified to accept this fast(er) AC charge. I"m assuming that initially Nissan would say "uh, no, we're not going to do it" but my question isn't whether Nissan would want to, but, just in theory, what would it take, technologically, approx. how much might it cost, and what concerns there might be about wear-and-tear on the battery (as with DCFC).

[edited to correct "charger" to "charge station"

update from my end - while it's unlikely that I would be willing to push the envelope and deal with my dealer being upset about heavily modifying their car, I'd like to take a stab at what it is going to cost me not to have this.

The lack of faster charging between myself and my regular destination points is now going to cost me about an extra $5k-$10k over the next two years remaining on my lease. This is the amount it will cost me to get a hopefully reliable gasoline or diesel used vehicle and maintain and run it for that period.

I did have one, but I sold it last year as kind of an elective, so some of this is my fault. (For example, in getting the new Leaf, it became more apparent to me that I wasn't in love with my old vehicle and would like if possible not to have to deal with it, though I liked the reliability and economy of it). However, I still think it's useful to put a number on some of this.

It could also be argued that there will be some value left in whatever gasoline vehicle I get for the time it will take to tide me over until I am able to secure something like a PHEV or Tesla Model-E in a couple of years. However, I generally haven't had much success getting a lot of $ out of high-mileage used cars that I have sold, so I am not planning on it.

I am writing from a Starbuck's where I have been for 2-3 hours waiting for a charge, so I think this helps illustrate that the Leaf is costing me a lot of time, on certain trips. Perhaps one way to put this - if I did own my 2012 Leaf, I'd probably try to look into modifying it with the modifications suggested in this and other threads, to deal with this nasty bottleneck.

I have also done what I can to contact various parties and have a DCQC installed along my driving route, but while some have listened politely, nobody seems that interested so far. Given the small # of vehicles so far along this route, I'm not holding my breath, and I don't blame folks for not making it a priority. I guess part of my thinking is.... if only my Leaf accepted 18 kW, I would pay for it myself to install an 18 kW AC Charge station along the path and I would probably be out the same (or less?) money than it will cost me to buy and maintain and run another used gasoline vehicle for the next two years.

As to the DCQC, my dealer in Tucson did install one, an ABB, which I used for the first time yesterday, and it worked great. A difficult thing for me is that this dealer family recently established a Ford Dealership directly along my route in Green Valley, AZ, but I have not got anywhere as to convincing them to consider a DCQC outside that new dealership fence (i.e.: has to be available to all, 24x7x365, or it's not really fully useful to me or others).