possibility of future mod to vehicle to allow 18kW AC Chrge?

[jlsoaz]

[note, I did a quick look at topics and didn't see anything on this. I'm not sure of good search terms, so am just going ahead and posting this as a new topic.]

This $2,195 18 kW AC Charge Station has got me to thinking:
http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/charging-station-cs-100-high-power/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm wondering if somehow one were to go in near where I live, and if I somehow had a vehicle that could make use of it, then it would shorten a lot of my trips dramatically. I'm basically assuming that even if the installation costs are higher than the usual 7.2 (or so) kW AC charger, that they would be nowhere near the high costs of installing a 480V fast charge station. There is not as much likelihood of a DC fast charge stationr going in around here, but if a 10-20 kW AC charge station would cost less than $10k to put in, then maybe it would be a good compromise?

So, the question becomes, could the Leaf (I have a 2012) be modified to accept this fast(er) AC charge. I"m assuming that initially Nissan would say "uh, no, we're not going to do it" but my question isn't whether Nissan would want to, but, just in theory, what would it take, technologically, approx. how much might it cost, and what concerns there might be about wear-and-tear on the battery (as with DCFC).

[edited to correct "charger" to "charge station"

 

[keydiver]

Have you read the posts about adding a Brusa charger to your 2012? Its not 18 kW, but its a start:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12323" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You might want to consult some of the experts in that link, to see if multiple Brusa's could be stacked, but my first thought is that there is not enough room for an 18 kW charger.

 

[valerun]

[note, I did a quick look at topics and didn't see anything on this. I'm not sure of good search terms, so am just going ahead and posting this as a new topic.]

This $2,195 18 kW AC Charger has got me to thinking:
http://www.clippercreek.com/store/product/charging-station-cs-100-high-power/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I'm wondering if somehow one were to go in near where I live, and if I somehow had a vehicle that could make use of it, then it would shorten a lot of my trips dramatically. I'm basically assuming that even if the installation costs are higher than the usual 7.2 (or so) kW AC charger, that they would be nowhere near the high costs of installing a 480V fast charger. There is not as much likelihood of a DC fast charger going in around here, but if a 10-20 kW AC charger would cost less than $10k to put in, then maybe it would be a good compromise?

So, the question becomes, could the Leaf (I have a 2012) be modified to accept this fast(er) AC Charge. I"m assuming that initially Nissan would say "uh, no, we're not going to do it" but my question isn't whether Nissan would want to, but, just in theory, what would it take, technologically, approx. how much might it cost, and what concerns there might be about wear-and-tear on the battery (as with DCFC).

correction: 18kW unit you are referencing is not a charger but a charging station. Also, if you are after higher power in the *charging station*, no need to pay $2k. <shameless plug> - check out EMotorWerks JuiceBox at http://emotorwerks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; </shameless plug>

Anyway, summary of prior discussions on similar topics:
1. There was a discussion on related topic at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=9552" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
2. This is possible
3. It would require addition of 1 or more slave chargers to the Leaf
4. Victor Tikhonov of MetricMind has done this mod using [expensive but bulletproof] BRUSA chargers - at ~$800/kw. His work is described at http://www.metricmind.com/leaf/main.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
5. We (EMotorWerks) are now working on an 8kW add-on charger in $2k price range. It would be a scaled-down version of our existing 20kW product (http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/76-emotorwerks-isocharge-20000-20kw-isolated-ev-charger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. It would have ~11x8x4" dimensions and IP67 protection.

We could use this thread to discuss further.

Thanks,
Valery.

 

[jlsoaz]

correction: 18kW unit you are referencing is not a charger but a charging station. Also, if you are after higher power in the *charging station*, no need to pay $2k. <shameless plug> - check out EMotorWerks JuiceBox at http://emotorwerks.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; </shameless plug>

Thanks, I have corrected the wrong terminology in my original post, I will look to respond on the rest of your helpful points at a later time.

 

[smkettner]

As far as I am concerned faster charging will come when Nissan makes the option available as original equipment.
Retrofit seems over the top expensive for what you get.

Frankly I would prefer to spend the money on a larger battery first.

 

[jlsoaz]

Have you read the posts about adding a Brusa charger to your 2012? Its not 18 kW, but its a start:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=12323" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
You might want to consult some of the experts in that link, to see if multiple Brusa's could be stacked, but my first thought is that there is not enough room for an 18 kW charger.

Thanks, this is interesting, I didn't know about it.

To clarify, I am a lessee and would not try to modify my car in this way. However, my goal is to discuss a bit, and figure out my next move on my next car, and I guess to agitate for change. I thought that Nissan's 3.3 kW seemed inadequate from the start. For many purposes the 6.x kW modification does look like it would be useful to help with my use of the car. I can't say that I hold out much hope though of Nissan modifying my leased Leaf?

Also, I have participated in putting in at least one public charge station and if I had it to do over again would opt for the 18 kW station over the 7.2 kW station.

 

[jlsoaz]

As far as I am concerned faster charging will come when Nissan makes the option available as original equipment.
Retrofit seems over the top expensive for what you get.

Frankly I would prefer to spend the money on a larger battery first.

I'm with you on the larger battery, and I"m with you on seeing this as something Nissan has to do, but for better or worse, the process of agitating for the carmakers to do something over the years has often entailed some folks retrofitting or testing the boundaries and, thus, tending to get the automakers to wake up.

I suppose the really top-level ingenious invention would be to invent a method to get just one of the automakers to take a different approach so that drivers are not constantly having to cajole them and push them to do things by going into grey area on mods. Maybe in some ways the landscape has changed a bit more than I realize and some of the automakers which are more committed than others have become more responsive to obviously-needed-mods.

 

[jlsoaz]

...5. We (EMotorWerks) are now working on an 8kW add-on charger in $2k price range. It would be a scaled-down version of our existing 20kW product (http://emotorwerks.com/products/online-store/product/show/76-emotorwerks-isocharge-20000-20kw-isolated-ev-charger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. It would have ~11x8x4" dimensions and IP67 protection.

We could use this thread to discuss further.

Thanks,
Valery.

As a lessee, I am reluctant to modify anything. If Nissan were somehow to agree that there are certain mods that would help extend and improve the useful life of existing 2011-2012 vehicles and they might be open to it, then that might be useful for some of those folks. In my case, my Arizona Leaf seems to be losing some range and so to be honest in my case, I am not so keen on spending money on the vehicle.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Nissan, nor any company, isn't going to "agree to modifications". That's not the way the car business works.

But, if the door handle breaks, they can't deny you a warranty claim because you modified the charger.

If the battery shows any wear and tear, believe that they will make a federal case out of it and deny your claim. Of course, that doesn't really matter on a lease, right? You're just going to turn it in whether the battery is degraded, or not.

 

[jlsoaz]

Nissan, nor any company, isn't going to "agree to modifications". That's not the way the car business works.

But, if the door handle breaks, they can't deny you a warranty claim because you modified the charger.

If the battery shows any wear and tear, believe that they will make a federal case out of it and deny your claim. Of course, that doesn't really matter on a lease, right? You're just going to turn it in whether the battery is degraded, or not.

Thanks, on my personal vehicle, I do not see modifying it. The battery is already showing signs that I am not going to be able to reach some of my destination points that I could a few months ago. I'll have to figure out what to do about this, if anything. Options will have to include buying an old cheap gasoline vehicle to supplement my EV. Options probably won't involve mucking with the innards of the car, though I can see how others might if they own the car. Mucking with the innards if the car is leased would seem to be a trickier decision though perhaps some will see it as a bit of justified (in some way) EV disobedience?

However, I think we can discuss things outside of our personal vehicle issues. My discussion points often come from my liking to discuss EVs and the industry and not necessarily because I need to figure out what to do on my own personal car.

In this case, it also comes from the oddball point that I recently helped buy a 7.2 kW AC Charger for public use, and I realized later that we could have got the 18 kW for less. This parallels the question in my mind as to where we will see onboard AC chargers going the next few years (would it stay in the ~6 kW area or go higher?). I'll have to read more in the group later to catch up with what some knowledgeable may have said on this point.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... we will see onboard AC chargers going the next few years (would it stay in the ~6 kW area or go higher?). I'll have to read more in the group later to catch up with what some knowledgeable may have said on this point.

All Tesla powered vehicles (Roadster, Model S, X, E, Toyota Rav4 EV Gen II, Mercedes Benz B-Class ED) have onboard chargers that use 40 amps or greater (40 amps * 250 volt = 10kW)

Roadster uses 70 amps (17.5kW at 250 volts)

Model S, X, E with twin chargers use 80 amps (20kW at 250 volts)

Of course, most public charge stations are 208 volt * 30 amps, or about 6.2kW.

 

[JasonA]

If you want to mod you Leaf to charge faster off the J-plug or AC side of things and are leasing it, don't worry.. others are doing it and the mod is fairly easy to do.

I was the first to get it all up and running with the help of many on this group and now it's a solid solution and automatic operation.

Just the charger costs abit.. the rest is easy

 

[neofightr]

If you want to mod you Leaf to charge faster off the J-plug or AC side of things and are leasing it, don't worry.. others are doing it and the mod is fairly easy to do.

I was the first to get it all up and running with the help of many on this group and now it's a solid solution and automatic operation.

Just the charger costs abit.. the rest is easy

Ok, so let me get this straight, you are suggesting that people who are leasing go ahead use recharge mods??

You do realize this directly violates the battery warranty right? And if you think Nissan won't realize this, think again. As all leaf drivers know Nissan is getting telemetry data everyday. So basically they know when the car is getting supercharged and at what rate. What this means is they could hold lessee's liable for the battery wear when they turn in the cars at the end of the lease.

At the very least they could fight a battery replacement mid-lease if they catch you red-handed supercharging the car. Obviously they will not count the official fast charging method as it's part of their official upgrade package.

Here is a quote directly from the current battery capacity warranty which refers to this paragraph:
"WHAT IS NOT COVERED ....
DAMAGE OR FAILURES DUE TO ALTERATION OR MODIFICATION This warranty does not cover damage,failures or corrosion resulting from or caused by: Alteration, tampering, or improper repair. Installation of non-Nissan approved accessories or components. Improper installation of any Nissan approved after- market accessory or component. A vehicle whose odometer mileage has been al- tered, or the odometer repaired or replaced and the actual vehicle mileage cannot be correctly and readily determined. "

As for me, my new Leaf arrives later next week and I am not leasing it so these are options I could take if I want to disregard the battery capacity warranty.

Don't get me wrong, I am looking forward to a healthy after-market and I am crossing my fingers that entrepreneurial geniuses will find some way to offer refurbished battery replacements for a few thousand dollars in 4 years time. One can always hope

 

[Elephanthead]

So when will the leaf offer a 18kw charger instead of the dumb qc port where there aren't any charger or they are all broken.

 

[jlsoaz]

If you want to mod you Leaf to charge faster off the J-plug or AC side of things and are leasing it, don't worry.. others are doing it and the mod is fairly easy to do.

I was the first to get it all up and running with the help of many on this group and now it's a solid solution and automatic operation.

Just the charger costs abit.. the rest is easy

Ok, so let me get this straight, you are suggesting that people who are leasing go ahead use recharge mods??
[...]

Hi -

I'm leasing and I would not consider doing a retrofit of this type. I think you're correct to lay out the issues with this.

That being said, there is to me the reality of the weak points of the Gen1 technology. Is Nissan going to offer faster onboard AC charge equipment, bigger batteries and better/faster offboard portable EVSE on future models? Will it meet Gen1 lessees and purchasers partway and offer any retrofits particularly for features whose importance is highlighted by the prevalence of underground solutions? I'm guessing "no", and I'm not saying this is a terrible answer, but then again, maybe they would consider this or that retrofit, so might as well ask.....

 

[neofightr]

Hi -

I'm leasing and I would not consider doing a retrofit of this type. I think you're correct to lay out the issues with this.

That being said, there is to me the reality of the weak points of the Gen1 technology. Is Nissan going to offer faster onboard AC charge equipment, bigger batteries and better/faster offboard portable EVSE on future models? Will it meet Gen1 lessees and purchasers partway and offer any retrofits particularly for features whose importance is highlighted by the prevalence of underground solutions? I'm guessing "no", and I'm not saying this is a terrible answer, but then again, maybe they would consider this or that retrofit, so might as well ask.....

All I am saying is don't be surprised if the dealership whips out a penalty fee when someone turns in the car for messing with their batteries via supercharges. Remember they are the legal owners of the car not the customer.

Granted they might come halfway with someone to keep your loyalty but who knows.

 

[neofightr]

So when will the leaf offer a 18kw charger instead of the dumb qc port where there aren't any charger or they are all broken.

When they feel they won't shorten the battery life span to 4 years vice 8 (educated guess) using higher-rated charges routinely. Can you imagine the uproar if the batteries only lasted 4 years max.

This is why the manual says minimize use of the fast charge as much as possible. Every time you use it you are cutting a chunk of the total lifespan of the batteries.
Nissan just won't come out and say that.

Don't worry, in a few very short years we will have quick-change battery replacement stations much like we have jiffy lubes now and enhanced battery packs that make this discussion obsolete.

Tesla is leading the way on this. Great times for all new EV owners in only a few years tops.
Imagine pulling up to a station and having a fresh set of batteries (200mi range) for 20 bucks. They would be loaner batteries of course or maybe a membership would change that model who knows.

The future looks bright in any case.

 

[GregH]

Of course, most public charge stations are 208 volt * 30 amps, or about 6.2kW.

So when will the leaf offer a 18kw charger instead of the dumb qc port where there aren't any charger or they are all broken.

Hmm... indeed.
IMHO we'd be better off pushing for more 25-50kW DCQC stations than to push for integrated 18kW AC onboard charging AND the upgrading of public EVSEs to support 80A rather than the much more common 30A.

My employer does not share this view... But I think we have to consider the momentum in the market and try to visualize the future landscape rather than just wishing really hard that things had been done differently. Same goes for V2G.

 

[TomT]

I suggest you look up the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act...

You do realize this directly violates the battery warranty right?

 

[jlsoaz]

Of course, most public charge stations are 208 volt * 30 amps, or about 6.2kW.

So when will the leaf offer a 18kw charger instead of the dumb qc port where there aren't any charger or they are all broken.

Hmm... indeed.
IMHO we'd be better off pushing for more 25-50kW DCQC stations than to push for integrated 18kW AC onboard charging AND the upgrading of public EVSEs to support 80A rather than the much more common 30A.

My employer does not share this view... But I think we have to consider the momentum in the market and try to visualize the future landscape rather than just wishing really hard that things had been done differently. Same goes for V2G.

I think you're missing something.... I think it's quite a bit more money to buy and install DCFC than 10-20 kW AC. Further, I think the 10-20 kW AC will be "backward compatible" with existing vehicle J1772 ports that can only go as high as 6.6 or 3.3 kW. So, I think there's an argument to be made for the competitiveness of the 10-20 kW AC choice, from the standpoint of decision-making as to installing public EVSE, especially if, in the end, it costs not "that" much more installed cost than under-10kW AC.