Good Bye Fast Free Charging & CHAdeMO & New Nissan EV ARYIA Nissan

[gmcjetpilot]

Bummer indeed. On those rare occasions I would usually go to the Nissan dealer to get a quick top off, I now no longer have the option of Free CHAdeMO charging in my 2015 LEAF. The fast charger at closest NISSAN dealer has been replaced by another fast charging station which requires a credit card. Still, they do offer free LEVEL 2, but that's going to take longer - 20-30 minutes instead of 5-10 to get reasonable top off. To pass the time, I decided to look around at the new cars and saw the Nissan EV Cross Over ARIYA 2023.

Sitting in the ARIYA for a bit I was impressed with fit and finish. I noticed the CCS port located in front fender, right hand side, passenger side, aft near the door jam. I'm guessing the Nissan LEAF is still around, but the range has gone up to 289 miles and the price is around 45K-$55K. Nissan has obviously gone with CCS - the J1772 plug with two extra large garage connectors located near the J1772 and below but separate, so it's cleverly designed for either a J1772 or CCS plug. It's definitely a win, but unfortunately CHAdeMO appears to be fading away - I'm not sure who even used it besides Nissan. The new ARYIA does not have CHAdeMO.

My 2015 LEAFE SV with all the options has CHAdeMO. Looks like it might be useless, except may be for fee commercial chargers. I will never go for fee. My LEAF is 2nd car for local only. I home charge mostly or dealer (free) or nearby public park if going for walk (free). The for fee chargers in my area are "Electrify America" and goes by the minute not electricity. If you are stuck with LEVEL 2 only you will pay excessively. The location near my house does have CHAdeMO up to 50Kw. Worst case I carry my LEVEL 1 cable in the car. I have an 2200W Ryobi Generator any may carry that. Ha ha. Seriously I could charge LEVEL 1 with my small gas generator.

As far as having any free charging anywhere I am grateful at least for LEVEL 2 as my 2015. I charge at home with my LEVEL 2 Clipper Creek 4.6Kw station 95% of the time. It is fine for a tiny 24Kw/?hr battery pack (now 19KW/Hr after 8 yrs) . Even when down below 20% to get to 80% is only a little over 2 hours. I have the high 6.6 KW LEVEL 2 option as well. However as the range goes down (now 80 miles, 72 winter) I might need a little boost while out and about. I hate going below 20% SOC at times, but I have had to accept going below that at times.

On a slightly related note, I do love it when Tesla owners have to use an adapter to charge their vehicle at a Nissan dealer, since we can't use Tesla Super Chargers it bugs me. They are in a $130K Model 2 P90D Tesla and are charging at Nissan dealer? Ha ha.

 

[DougWantsALeaf]

Yes, the number of free DC stations continues to fall, but Ibelieve it to be a good thing. Only by charging can a real business model be established. It also then reduces unnecessary charges opening charges for those who really need it.

I am split whether level 2 should also charge, as if it's sponsored by a business to bring customer that's fine.

 

[cwerdna]

https://www.chademo.com/products/products_type/evs lists some CHAdeMO vehicles. Others in the US that had it include gen 1 Soul EV, Mitsubishi i-MiEV and (still sold) Outlander PHEV.

All Tesla Model S and newer can use the discontinued CHAdeMO adapter (https://web.archive.org/web/20210309023825/https://shop.tesla.com/product/chademo-adapter). There's even a thread https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/chademo-charging-the-model-3.160882/. I know of some folks that use it and have witnessed other Teslas of various models using their own CHAdeMO adapter.

Battery capacity is measured in kilowatt-hours (kWh, kW-h also ok) not "KW/Hr".

 

[GerryAZ]

Unfortunately, CHAdeMO is fading away. I believe it is a much more robust and safer charging connector than CCS, but all of the manufacturers except Tesla are using CCS. One of the reasons I traded my 2015 for the 2019 SL Plus is because the larger battery yields enough range for my normal driving needs so that I rarely use DCQC. Even with significant degradation in the future, I will still have sufficient range to make round trips from home to my office or the airport so I should be able to get by without DCQC. I do use DCQC once in a while just to support the charging networks and because the LEAF Spy battery parameters improve slightly after each DCQC.

 

[SageBrush]

All Tesla Model S and newer can use the discontinued CHAdeMO adapter

Tesla EVs are now outfitted with the hardware to charge via CCS using a $250 adapter. Vastly superior to the now discontinued CHAdeMO adapter. Between the Tesla Supercharger network and the CCS DCFC network, Tesla EVs have an unparalleled fast charging experience.

 

[WetEV]

Between the Tesla Supercharger network and the CCS DCFC network, Tesla EVs have an unparalleled fast charging experience.

Now.

The future isn't always the same as the past.

If most public chargers were CCS, then Tesla EVs would be the ones that usually need a clunky adaptor to charge. A second rate experience.

 

[SageBrush]

If most public chargers were CCS, then Tesla EVs would be the ones that usually need a clunky adaptor to charge. A second rate experience.

If my grandmother had wheels, she would be an autobus. [translated]

The CCS adapter is far from clunky, but in any case the network growth is waaay in Tesla's favor. Last quarter Tesla installed over 10,000 additional plugs. In 3 months. Think about that. And Tesla has already figured out how to capture the US charging infrastructure money without degrading the Tesla charging experience.

So what is left ? Non Tesla CCS installers ? Worse case Tesla owners will use a small adapter, but I give it even money that the installers will install Tesla magic docks to cater to the largest market segment. And then CCS cars will continue to be 3rd or 4th tier customers, just like now. The silver lining, of course, is that they will not be stuck with CHAdeMO.

 

[WetEV]

Duplicate

 

[WetEV]

If most public chargers were CCS, then Tesla EVs would be the ones that usually need a clunky adaptor to charge. A second rate experience.

If my grandmother had wheels, she would be an autobus. [translated]

The CCS adapter is far from clunky, but in any case the network growth is waaay in Tesla's favor.

The future is not like the past.

Sure, if Tesla maintains an 80% market share... But that's not happening. It's down to 65%, and falling.

So future network growth is going to likely to favor CCS...

Yet, you might be right. Space Karen might become the first trillionare.

A dream.... far more correctly a nightmare.

 

[SageBrush]

Last quarter Tesla installed over 10,000 additional plugs. In 3 months. Think about that.

Error on my part. 11,000 connectors in 2022, not Q4/2022.
About 30 new connectors (250 kW chargers) a day on average

And in case WetEV forgets, these are high reliability and highly maintained, installed for less cost than the money grabbing fly-by-night operations that plague CCS.

Too bad Biden cannot just hand over the $7.5B to Tesla in return for 25% of connectors being Tesla/CCS enabled. We would all come out way ahead instead of wasting money on the likes of Greenlots/Ford/GM/Blink etc

 

[WetEV]

Too bad Biden cannot just hand over the $7.5B to Tesla in return for 25% of connectors being Tesla/CCS enabled. We would all come out way ahead instead of wasting money on the likes of Greenlots/Ford/GM/Blink etc

We would?

Locking in 75% market share for Tesla would be Musk's dream.

Everyone else, a nightmare.

Twitter is becoming Musk's dream as well

https://www.theverge.com/2023/2/14/23600358/elon-musk-tweets-algorithm-changes-twitter

Free speech for Musk.

And everyone else? Chinese dissidents are getting shadow bans. Musk can't allow some kinds of free speech.

 

[SageBrush]

Too bad Biden cannot just hand over the $7.5B to Tesla in return for 25% of connectors being Tesla/CCS enabled. We would all come out way ahead instead of wasting money on the likes of Greenlots/Ford/GM/Blink etc

We would?

Yes. At least they would actually work. And don't forget that Tesla installs 250 kW chargers for a fraction of the cost that the **** CCS installers put up 62 kW. The infrastructure money does not go far when the CCS installers are at the trough, and the installations are then neglected once the subsidy money is gone.

By the way, fwiw the 'analysts' are projecting 20 - 25% EV CAGR, although a big fraction of that is in China where small pack EVs are a big slice of the market and do not really play in the DC fast charging sphere. The Tesla Supercharger network has been growing at ~ 35% CAGR for years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger

Here is a log-normal graph of the Wikipedia data. Tesla ain't slowing down

 

[WetEV]

Yes. At least they would actually work.

Until Musk decides to ban all GM products from charging. Or Ford products. Or just you.

Sorry, I'm not a fan of monopolies.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/visit-the-post-for-more--801288958676856803/

 

[SageBrush]

Yes. At least they would actually work.

Sorry, I'm not a fan of monopolies.

Neither am I, but this is not monopoly, it is competition. The CCS installers are grossly incompetent and outrageously expensive, bordering on a legal scam. They do not deserve public subsidy. If they ever get their act together, I will agree with you

The situation today is that for the same amount of public subsidy, Tesla will build more CCS, at much higher speeds, at much higher quality and reliability than non Tesla CCS networks. It is beyond idiocy to not choose Tesla as the vendor just because Tesla is able to piggy-back additional Superchargers into the installation at no additional cost to the public.

 

[WetEV]

Sorry, I'm not a fan of monopolies.

Neither am I, but this is not monopoly, it is competition.

I beg to differ. There is "competition" where in the end is one company standing... Everyone else is gone. That's monopoly. That is not in customer's interest. Only the monopolist would be better off.

How could we avoid that? How can end up with competing networks? Not just until Tesla bankrupts everyone else, but long term?

If you are not a fan of monopolies, give a reasonable plan for avoiding one.

 

[SageBrush]

If you are not a fan of monopolies, give a reasonable plan for avoiding one.

Choose vendors (one or more) that offer the best product and service for the lowest price

A snippet from the Sherman act:
Monopolization requires (1) monopoly power and (2) the willful acquisition or maintenance of that power as distinguished from growth or development as a consequence of a superior product, business acumen, or historic accident.

 

[WetEV]

If you are not a fan of monopolies, give a reasonable plan for avoiding one.

Choose vendors (one or more) that offer the best product and service for the lowest price

A snippet from the Sherman act:
Monopolization requires (1) monopoly power and (2) the willful acquisition or maintenance of that power as distinguished from growth or development as a consequence of a superior product, business acumen, or historic accident.

Sadly missing my point.

Suppose Vendor A and Vendor X are competing. As a monopoly is so bad, I might buy from Vendor A even if A is slightly more expensive, or slightly less functional, or slightly worse service... just to maintain the competition.

See Intel and AMD.

Monopolies no longer need to care.

 

[SageBrush]

I might buy from Vendor A even if A is slightly more expensive, or slightly less functional, or slightly worse service... just to maintain the competition.

Fair enough.
Define 'slightly' quantitatively

E.g., is 5x more expensive 'slightly' ?
Is 70% uptime 'slightly' less than 97% ?
Is 62 kW 'slightly' less than 250 kW ?

 

[WetEV]

I might buy from Vendor A even if A is slightly more expensive, or slightly less functional, or slightly worse service... just to maintain the competition.

Fair enough.
Define 'slightly' quantitatively

I'm not sure if I can. Sorry.

E.g., is 5x more expensive 'slightly' ?
Is 70% uptime 'slightly' less than 97% ?
Is 62 kW 'slightly' less than 250 kW ?

Not a clue what you are talking about.

 

[KenH]

Now.

The future isn't always the same as the past.

If most public chargers were CCS, then Tesla EVs would be the ones that usually need a clunky adaptor to charge. A second rate experience.

Most of the public chargers I've seen in the MO,IL, IA,KS,NB are CCS. Sounds wonderful, but the reality in my experience has been 90%+ at least one if not all the charging stations at the stations have been inoperative.

If tesla used CCS, then possibly. However Tesla designed their own plug and have installed >50,000 worldwide with about 2,500 of them in the USA.

Tesla charging locations are much more plentiful and will be available to vehicles using the NACS (Tesla) plug starting with the 2025 model year, which most of the American car manufacturers have signed up for. I've seen a couple of Tesla locations where they have supplied a NACS to CCS adapter so that CCS equipped vehicles can charge there.

Personally, I've used Chademo Qucik Charges a total of 9 times (and never for a complete fillup; only 20 min or so to verify I could do it if needed) since I got my 2018 Leaf SL new in February 2018 with 5 miles on the odometer. I installed a L1/L2 charger a couple weeks after I I got my Leaf and have done 1,815 L1/L2charges per LeafSpy today, all at home. SOH is 87.5% so I still have 12 bars of battery.