New to Electric and looking to buy a Leaf

[LeftieBiker]

The 2013 Leaf is in some ways better* than the 2014 - and as long as it was built in April or later of that year, and still has the original battery, it also has the same battery as a 2014.

* 80% charge option, and the ability to get one with both the Charge Package and Premium package (not possible in the '14).

 

[Dyno1]

Alozzy , just curious how many bars are showing on your 2013 Leaf. Since you live in the same region and you said I should be able to get 80-90 Kms. The 2014 I mentioned has 11 bars and not 12, and my furthest commute to work one way is about 45kms. How long before I could run into distance issues with the battery . I would probably need it to commute for another 6-8 possibly years .

 

[Dyno1]

As for which leafs were built later in the year , can you tell by the vin when it was manufactured or just the decal inside the drivers door which usually shows the manufacturer date .

 

[LeftieBiker]

The VIN will tell you. Just use a (preferably free) VIN lookup service.

 

[alozzy]

Alozzy , just curious how many bars are showing on your 2013 Leaf. Since you live in the same region and you said I should be able to get 80-90 Kms. The 2014 I mentioned has 11 bars and not 12, and my furthest commute to work one way is about 45kms. How long before I could run into distance issues with the battery . I would probably need it to commute for another 6-8 possibly years .

It's really hard to predict what range to expect 6 - 8 years from now, because no one owns a 2013 LEAF that's 14 - 16 years old yet. I don't expect to be still driving my 2013 LEAF (recently dropped to 10 bars) in 6 years, simply because the range will no longer be sufficient for my needs. BTW, as the pack ages the CHADEMO DC fast charge becomes even more important as otherwise it's impractical to do even middle distance trips without waiting forever at an L2 EVSE to get enough kWhs to make it back home.

I think you should plan on losing a capacity bar roughly every 2 years on average, in our climate. I would guess that the winter range on a 6 bar LEAF would be a max of 70 km in summer and a max of 50 km in winter, but it could be even worse. Keeping the tire pressure at 40 psi helps, using ECO mode helps, limiting heater use helps, aero mods help, but those only take you so far.

My plan is to sell my LEAF in a year or two for whatever I can get for it (either as is or selling off parts and battery modules on eBay) and then upgrade to a 2018 LEAF since a 40 kWh pack (even a bit degraded) would give me enough range for many years of use.

In all honesty, current used car prices are stupid. In your shoes, I would wait on the sidelines for a bit if you can and get a 2018 LEAF when the price drops down to your budget.

Hope that helps

 

[Dyno1]

Found a 2015 S , 11 bars and the person said they can get 120kms and if in eco mode 140kms. Asking $13,000 Canadian and I might be able to get for a bit less . Is it worth having a look at or am I better to wait. The price seems good band it’s accident free. It would have the lizard pack battery which is a plus.

 

[jlv]

Found a 2015 S , 11 bars and the person said they can get 120kms and if in eco mode 140kms.

Ignore what the "person said".

The 2015 range when new is 85 miles (136 km). With 11 bars, it has between 77%-85% remaining capacity (*). That implies a range of 65-72 miles (105-116 km).

That range is under good conditions (summer, dry roads, no HVAC) and with a driver who has learned to "chill" while driving the car (avoid taking advantage of the instant torque, slowing down on the highway, etc.; basically someone who has learned to make the most of their driving efficiency). Range in the winter will be less, and much less when using the heater.

If the "person said" is talking about the range shown on the car's dashboard (the GOM or Guess-o-Meter), just completely ignore them. That value is vastly inflated compared to the actual range.

When I sold my 2013 with 12 bars (87% SOH, e.g., remaining battery capacity), it had a summer range of 67 miles and a winter range of about 55. Those ranges were from actually driving it, *and* were backed up with readings of the remaining battery kWh taken by LeafSpyPro (and multiplied by my average driving efficiency, 4.1 mi/kWh). The GOM often bogusly displayed over 100 miles of range.

(*) the first bar goes away at 85% SOH; each subsequent bar goes away at 7.5% increments

 

[Dyno1]

Guess the only way of getting the true battery system is a drive test or using the leafspy app with the obd2 reader . 2017 just came up but down already 2 bars with only 55,000kms could it just need updating? It’s a base s model and o think they are asking to much $17500 Canadian.

 

[alozzy]

I definitely wouldn't pay over $17k for a 2017 30 kWh LEAF, but today's used car market is stupid expensive.

Hyperinflation, and the economic impact of that, will correct the used car pricing eventually, which sounds nonsensical until you think about how many cars will get sold off for cheap when higher mortgage interest rates stress people's ability to afford their homes.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Guess the only way of getting the true battery system is a drive test or using the leafspy app with the obd2 reader . 2017 just came up but down already 2 bars with only 55,000kms could it just need updating? It’s a base s model and o think they are asking to much $17500 Canadian.

Two things to consider:

First, LeafSpy can also be fooled by a recent BMS reset. A car that is down two capacity bars isn't likely to fool it, but it could still drop additional bars if it was reset a few weeks or a month ago. In that case, LeafSpy would likely show a lower capacity than what should be expected with two bars gone.

Second, the BMS update doesn't always fix the problem. Why? Because there are actually two different problems with the 30kwh pack: some have faulty BMS programming, and some have bad packs that actually degrade quickly. So the update only fixes the first problem, not the second. The same car can also have both problems. The update is required to have been done, though, before a 30kwh pack is replaced under the capacity warranty.

 

[Dyno1]

Ok , thanks for that information I may have tracked down a 2015 sv full battery with 41,000 Kms. It’s from eastern Canada looking at the car fax so has never been in a hot environment. First is it realistic for a 2015 to still have full bars , seeing it came from a colder climate and what would be a good price on it ? Is a 2015 full bar with the lizard pack just as good as a 30kwh with 11 bars. I guess the 30kwh would still be under warranty were the 2015 isn’t. I am learning a lot on the forum and would like to thank you all for your help

 

[LeftieBiker]

You're welcome, speaking for me. A 30kwh pack with 4 bars lost has about the same capacity as a new 24kwh pack, so if range is a concern then the 30kwh, mixed bag though it is, is better overall. If you want as little time spent at the dealership as possible, and a bit under a hundred kilometers is enough range, then the 24kwh Lizard pack is the better bet. And yes, a 2015 from a cool climate could still have 12 bars, although it would more likely than not be down to no more than 90% of original capacity maybe as little as 86%. It would probably also have a CD player, and heated rear seats, which were dropped with the 30kwh cars. (In the US. Maybe Canada made Nissan keep at least the heated rear seats..?)

 

[Dyno1]

Interesting that a 30kwh with 4 bars down has the same range as a full 24 kWh, I wouldn’t have thought that . That’s great info to know . I’d definitely need more than 100km range just to play it safe for my commute. Definitely want either a SV or SL model.

 

[alozzy]

Interesting that a 30kwh with 4 bars down has the same range as a full 24 kWh, I wouldn’t have thought that . That’s great info to know.

Hmm, not sure that's a valid conclusion. A 24 kWh pack has nominally 80% of the capacity of a 30 kWh pack. Brand New, a full bar Leaf has 140 km of range in summer for city driving. A 2017 Leaf with only 8 bars would have about 100 km of range in summer.

 

[Dyno1]

I just found the spec sheets for the 2015 Leaf from nissan few interesting finds:

Li-ion battery pack warranty – 8 years or
100,000 miles against defects; 5 years or
60,000 miles against excessive capacity loss

EPA Estimated Fuel Economy
City (MPGe) 126
Highway (MPGe) 101
Combined (MPGe) 114

So the battery has an 8 year warranty or 160,000kms for defects but only 5 years or 96,000kms on capacity loss, couldn't excessive capacity lose be considered a battery defect? and the mileage given is more than the 84 miles I have heard. Alozzy since you live here in the lower mainland , in your opinion would a 24kwh lizard pack at 12 bars showing ( mind you it could be far less in percentage ) be enough for where we live during the fall and winter months which would probably be when the heater and other items would be used.

 

[alozzy]

Can you charge at work? Are you open to occasionally charging en route?

 

[LeftieBiker]

Interesting that a 30kwh with 4 bars down has the same range as a full 24 kWh, I wouldn’t have thought that . That’s great info to know.

Hmm, not sure that's a valid conclusion. A 24 kWh pack has nominally 80% of the capacity of a 30 kWh pack. Brand New, a full bar Leaf has 140 km of range in summer for city driving. A 2017 Leaf with only 8 bars would have about 100 km of range in summer.

Crap. It looks like I confused two things in discussion: the range of a 24kwh Leaf with almost one bar lost, and the range of a 30kwh Leaf with four bars gone. I swear I remember people here saying words to that effect, though: that a 30kwh Leaf with four bars lost has about the same range as a new 24kwh Leaf. Maybe it was actually THREE bars lost... at any rate, I apologize for my mistake.

 

[knightmb]

Crap. It looks like I confused two things in discussion: the range of a 24kwh Leaf with almost one bar lost, and the range of a 30kwh Leaf with four bars gone. I swear I remember people here saying words to that effect, though: that a 30kwh Leaf with four bars lost has about the same range as a new 24kwh Leaf. Maybe it was actually THREE bars lost... at any rate, I apologize for my mistake.

Might be easier to compare capacity, does a 8 bar 30 kWh Leaf have at least 21 kWh of capacity when fully charged? That would be the same as a brand new 2011-2015 era Leaf.

 

[alozzy]

No worries, it's a fair amount of speculation anyways on all our parts - many variables involved, not least of which is if the OP has a heavy foot

I seem to recall that a 2017 has 28 kWh when new. An 8 bar would have at best 62.5 SOH (100 - 15 - (7.5*3)), so that would be 17.5 kWh. An 11 bar 2015 would have at best almost 19 kWh. Not much of a difference...

 

[Dyno1]

No need to apologize Leftiebiker, your wealth on knowledge is a huge help to me. I just calculated the range in kilometers for a 30 kwh battery losing 4 bars and a 24kwh losing one bar and the 30kwh would have roughly 117kms of range left and a 24kwh down to 11 bars would have roughly 114kms if I have done my math correctly. So the 30kwh would appear to have still more range after losing 4 bars and by then wouldn't the battery be covered under warranty for replacement if it falls during the warranty period? As for winter driving with the heater on what percentage of battery use could one expect that would affect the range? I would be able to charge the car at work . There is a dealership locally that has a 2016 SV which would have the 30kwh battery. But after speaking to the salesperson who called me about it, they want almost $24,000 Canadian before taxes for it which seems very high to me. It's fair amount more than I was looking to spend. The 2015 which was originally from eastern Canada is about $17,000 Canadian before taxes.