Multiple DC Quick Charges did get a Hot Battery for this guy

[edatoakrun]

Everyone is also failing to recognize the time to get ICE vehicle removed from the Blink QC location.
When I used the Cleveland, TN Blink QC at Sunday lunch rush, both spots at the Blink QC had ICE vehicles in them.
Cracker Barrel was very helpful, and proceeded to page both vehicle owners.
But a full Cracker Barrel is fairly loud.
I think they had to page 3 or 4 times before one of the ICE vehicle owners heard the page and came and moved the vehicle.
Took about 30 minutes before I could get into the spot to start the QC from 77% indicated by the Blink QC (probably 8 out of 12, 67% on the LEAF) to 100% which took 25 minutes.
More than 100% overhead time in getting ICE vehicle moved.
It still appears to me that the Blink QC software that reads the LEAF info is erroneous.
I'll have to try the Murphy Express Eaton QC sometime to see if its the same, or has correct software.

Unfortunately most QC's seem to have problems with location and design, apparently due to the lack of understanding of their efficient use.

QCs should never be placed in parking lots, adjacent to attractions which invite space competition, from non-QC vehicles.

No amount of regulation and enforcement can make up for putting the QC in the wrong place, to begin with, as your experience illustrates.

The Southern Oregon QCs, and all the others on 1-5, which I've seen photos of, seem to be generally well located, but each has a L2 charger right next to it, inviting the QC to be PHEVd, by the driver of a QC-incapable vehicle. What sort of total lack of foresight was involved, to not see they would often be disabling the QC, by deliberately placing an attraction for long-term parking, within L2 cable range of the QC?

DC chargers are expensive. They should only be placed where they will operate most efficiently, near long-range driving corridors, and out of the way of those, driving non-QC capable vehicles, looking for a place to park.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

ok, 11 pages, what have we decided?

 

[TimLee]

If you do inadvisable things with QC you can get the battery hot, no matter what the ambient temperature is.
And not very many people will use QC to drive the LEAF more than 200 miles in one day.
I might drive from Chattanooga to Knoxville and back in one day.
I might drive to Nashville, if I'm staying over night.
But I doubt I ever drive to Memphis. Just too inefficient, and maybe not very good for the battery life.

 

[edatoakrun]

ok, 11 pages, what have we decided?

OT?

IMO:

That the pattern of charging and driving the driver did on that trip, may cause your Leaf to show 9 bars of battery temp.

Any significance beyond that report, is speculative.

Reports, during warmer weather, should reveal if it's easy, or difficult, to "overheat" a LEAF battery pack, with extreme use.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

well i'm guessing

1) its your car, learn it, drive it based on what you learned

2) if you are in that much of a hurry, fly

3) if putting half of something into something that is empty, not likely to spill. if putting half into something that is already half full...

4) i personally would have stopped at every QC too. its a must!! cant go there and not stop

5) i need to know the name of the guy who forced you to charge to 90% SOC!! i will kick his ass for ya. then next time, there will be no one standing in front of that big red stop button

but seriously. if you want to know the limits, here ya go.

what not to do? here ya go.

 

[N952JL]

I think what we have learned is: with current battery QC doesn't really matter much. The range is just no enough even with QC's every 40 miles. What we need is a good 210 mile range @ 70 as a beginning. then QC's every 50 to 75 miles on major corridors. Or a good extended range trailer, like Phil's.

 

[Nubo]

... in the San Joaquin Valley, given current BEV range (Tesla can take care of themselves) no one in their right mind will use a BEV for long north-south trips on I-5.

Well, I think I'd probably take our LEAF from SF to LA if there were enough QC to make it work. I might agree that hwy 101 would be a better choice for an EV corridor. Drivers on I-5 take a dim view even of those daring to drive as slowly as 70 mph.... :roll:

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

one of the things I've learned is that just because there are QC's every 25 miles doesn't mean you have to use each one. Rather than spacing them out, putting them closer than they need to be, like gas stations today, helps reduce the load on any given charging station... frankly, we will eventually need them placed closer and closer together as more and more EV's get on the road and demand increases, giving people more options. You really don't want everyone to be running out of juice at the same intervals.

I think what we have learned is: with current battery QC doesn't really matter much. The range is just no enough even with QC's every 40 miles. What we need is a good 210 mile range @ 70 as a beginning. then QC's every 50 to 75 miles on major corridors. Or a good extended range trailer, like Phil's.

 

[useopenid]

As the one whose posting apparently triggered this long discussion... ;-) let me see if I can answer some of the questions (sorry I didn't get in here sooner - I don't have time to keep up with the volume here, so haven't really been trying and just found out about this thread)

* the trip south took 10.5 hours because I had to L2 charge in Eugene. There will be a QC between Corvallis and Eugene any day now which would eliminate that problem, and I figure the normal case would be 7-7.5 hours (vs 4-5 in a gas car).

* Unless I was trying to stretch the limits of range, I was driving at the speed limit (65mph) on cruise control.

* Even the highest point of the trip, the Siskiyous on the California border was only 1000m (I'm not sure where someone was getting 4000 and 6000ft numbers - you have to go into the Cascades to do that), but overall, the trip south is uphill and the trip north is downhill. Since the point of the trip was the opening ceremonies for the West Coast Electric Highway (those 8 DCFC stations), rather more time was taken on the return trip while those activities played out, as well as dealing with the broken station in Grants Pass and the L2 charging there.

* Given that it cooled off to 8 bars between Grants Pass and Ashland, I think it just barely made 9 bars, but I also stopped in Central Point (to find the station blocked off) and then drove more slowly in order to make it to Ashland.

* In fact, I *did* stop the charging early a few times after I realized this was an issue, and in fact meant to stop it earlier in Grants Pass, but was reading and didn't notice it'd gone past where I wanted to stop - which was fortunate or I wouldn't have made it to Ashland.

* No, it did not turtle.

* If I do it again (and I probably will), I will stop at each station again - until they are 10 miles apart with redundancy, you can't afford to skip a chance to charge up on a cross country trip. I'm not sure if I'll stop it at 80% or not (and it's not just the AVs that go to 89% - we have some others in Portland and they all go to 90%, I'm pretty sure it's the Leaf telling them when to stop) - doing that risks an L2 charge or worse if there's a problem at the next station. Yes, that means it effectively doubles the length of a long trip, and I'm not sure I'd want to do it with kids, but for just me, that's ok - if I'm on that sort of road trip, I'm sightseeing. If I want to get to a destination, I'll probably fly. We're still in the early pioneering days: it won't be long until we have 100kWh packs and 250kW charging, and then we can treat EVs like we do gas cars today. I'm happy to trade a little inconvenience to avoid sending money to the middle east. I like to read anyhow ;-)

* That said, such a trip is and will be for some time, a rarity. Normal quick charging, at least for me, will be a short 5-10 minute bridge charge, then a destination charge for running around, repeating for the return trip. And that only a few times a month. For daily use, I charge at home once or twice a week with 5-10 miles per day of driving around town... Neither heating, or QC frequency will be an issue...

If there are any questions I missed or additional ones, I'm happy to answer them...

 

[edatoakrun]

As the one whose posting apparently triggered this long discussion... ;-) let me see if I can answer some of the questions ...* Even the highest point of the trip, the Siskiyous on the California border was only 1000m (I'm not sure where someone was getting 4000 and 6000ft numbers ...

I believe you may be referring to total ascent/descent numbers I posted.

Those are the totals for all the ascents, and descents, during the trip, from Corvallis to Ashland only, estimated by eyeball, from a profile of that road section.

Anyone know a more accurate method?

North to South, looked to total about 6,200 ft of ascents, and 4,500 ft of total descents, as you are about 1700 ft higher altitude in Ashland, than at the start, in Corvallis.

The point being, not only does it require more kWh overall, it generates more battery heat, both in discharging as you climb, and charging with regen in descents, than would a trip of the same length, with a single 1700 ft ascent.

Congratulations on the trip. I never looked into requesting a "fob" for these chargers.

Are they available to the public yet?

 

[useopenid]

I believe you may be referring to total ascent/descent numbers I posted.

Ahh, ok, that makes sense and sounds right. I do have a garmin track log, so there's probably something that could actually calculate the actuals, but probably more work than it's worth...

The point is, It takes more kWh to do all this climbing and descending, than would a single 1700 ft ascent.

Yes, exactly

Congratulations on the trip. I never looked into requesting a "fob"for these chargers.-

Are they available to the public yet?

Thanks! Yes, they are: http://evsolutions.avinc.com/services/subscriber_network/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[useopenid]

A little off topic for this subforum, but since y'all've been talking about the post: I've updated the WCEH photo journal with links to the first four approaches to the charging stations, taken with a little $50 dashcam (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00567H67C/ref=oh_o05_s00_i00_details" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. It does surprisingly well for the price, but shipped directly from Hong Kong and defaulted to chinese menus, which made it "interesting" to get switched to English ;-) Unfortunately, it's apparently too easy to switch out of the recording mode, and has a tendency to lock up (make sure you have a Universal Reset Tool with it at all times! A ballpoint is too big, it needs a paper clip...). As a result, those four are the only ones I got...

If you don't want to wade through the story, here's the links:

http://media.batie.org/wceh/wceh-sb-cottage_grove.mpeg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://media.batie.org/wceh/wceh-sb-rice_hill.mpeg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://media.batie.org/wceh/wceh-sb-roseburg.mpeg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://media.batie.org/wceh/wceh-sb-canyonville.mpeg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

At least the last one got me asking the gas attendant for directions to the charging station ;-)

The Rice Hill clip shows the Drive In on the west side that I didn't notice, but two people have told me it's a "must do" ice cream stop ;-)

 

[lpickup]

ok, 11 pages, what have we decided?

I've decided that it's an interesting theoretical discussion, but in practice I'll never be doing a QC more than maybe twice in one day in the LEAF. After that point the additional travel time overhead crosses the pain threshold of taking the ICE and paying a ton of money for gas.

 

[HighDesertDriver]

A little off topic for this subforum, ...snip... four are the only ones I got...

http://media.batie.org/wceh/wceh-sb-cottage_grove.mpeg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://media.batie.org/wceh/wceh-sb-rice_hill.mpeg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://media.batie.org/wceh/wceh-sb-roseburg.mpeg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://media.batie.org/wceh/wceh-sb-canyonville.mpeg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Thanks for posting even these four videos. The surprise for me was that the Oregon "Electric Highway" QC facilities have been placed in such varied and obscure locations. I see the practical desire to minimize costs by tapping into existing electrical service, but I envisioned them in adjacent rest stops or highly visible areas near the freeway exits. At this stage, they might even be compared to CNG facilities -- if you don't know what you are looking for and where to find them, you'll likely never see them. With all that said, however, even these Oregon facilities are an order of magnitude better than the ones that don't (yet) exist here in California.

 

[edatoakrun]

ok, 11 pages, what have we decided?

I've decided that it's an interesting theoretical discussion, but in practice I'll never be doing a QC more than maybe twice in one day in the LEAF. After that point the additional travel time overhead crosses the pain threshold of taking the ICE and paying a ton of money for gas.

Me too, and that is probably pretty close to the "average" response to the question.

Of course, as BEV battery capacity and m/kWh performance improve, this distance will increase from the present 200 or so miles, for LEAF and I owners.

Personally, I'm hoping for a 2016 ESLOW, with a 30 kWh battery pack, and 4 m/kWh performance, at freeway speeds.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=2671" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We'd be talking about a one-hour total BEV "time premium", for a 250 mile trip.

I'd probably get health benefits, by a break for "slow food", as opposed to the scorched-pink-slime-on-a-bun, I often force down, at the 150-mile pit-stop, when driving an ICEV.

I'd probably keep my 2011 LEAF, for "truckster" duty, when I need to haul passengers or cargo, locally.

 

[lpickup]

Of course, as BEV battery capacity and m/kWh performance improve, this distance will increase from the present 200 or so miles, for LEAF and I owners.

I meant to call attention to the fact that I said "in the LEAF"

The story may be different for future cars with better range, but I'm willing to bet it will be the same for me for even 300 mile EV's: no more than 2 QC's in a given day. That gives me probably close to 900 miles of range (okay maybe more like 700) which is pretty close to the distance I'd consider driving in a single day anyway, and if you also figure that the QC charge time of a 300 mile battery is going to be 90 minutes or so, you'd need a decent sized break--so, lunch and dinner. Perfect! However, I also suspect that the issue raised in the original post, that QCing so frequently and quickly wouldn't apply. The battery would have about 4-5 hours to cool down from its previous charge.

 

[edatoakrun]

I just called AeroVironment’s Subscriber Network.

Was told I could receive the FOB, but was told I had to prepay for charging, first.

$2.50 per charge session, unlimited kWh per session, sold in increments of 4, 10, 20, and up, charge sessions.

Hell of a deal for an 85 kWh battery Tesla S owner, with a Chademo adapter, I'd say!

Not bad, even for a LEAF needing only 10 or 15 kWh.

I think I'll wait till I'm closer to committing to the long (in hours for me, 170 miles on L2 to Ashland) drive north, and see how they are working, before, I buy a 4, 10, or 20 pack, They also said, you can expect receipt of the fob, within 5 days of payment.

BTW. I was also told that, free use, limited to one time, by phone call, is still available.

 

[lpickup]

$2.50 per charge session, unlimited kWh per session, sold in increments of 4, 10, 20, and up, charge sessions.

I'd say that's very fair, compared to the $12.50 being bantered about go GoE3 and potentially eVgo (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8356) and hopefully it will set a precedent. I also figure that you'd usually get your money's worth out of that $2.50 on a distance trip. Maybe not so much on a local "need to top off" type trip, but even so it seems fair for the convenience factor.

 

[edatoakrun]

$2.50 per charge session, unlimited kWh per session, sold in increments of 4, 10, 20, and up, charge sessions.

I'd say that's very fair, compared to the $12.50 being bantered about go GoE3 and potentially eVgo (http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=8356) and hopefully it will set a precedent. I also figure that you'd usually get your money's worth out of that $2.50 on a distance trip. Maybe not so much on a local "need to top off" type trip, but even so it seems fair for the convenience factor.

Not too high a charge, IMO, but the poor efficiency that will result, of of not charging fees per kWh, could be problematic.

To get the lowest cost per kWh, BEV drivers will tend to top-off, even during summer peak grid demand, and even when they don't need the charge till the next day, when they could get their top-off at home, later that night.

And, someday, you may find yourself waiting, behind a cheapskate at the QC, slowly topping off to100% capacity.

 

[FairwoodRed]

I just called AeroVironment’s Subscriber Network.

Was told I could receive the FOB, but was told I had to prepay for charging, first.

$2.50 per charge session, unlimited kWh per session, sold in increments of 4, 10, 20, and up, charge sessions.

BTW. I was also told that, free use, limited to one time, by phone call, is still available.

That's a rate that I can get behind. Do you have the number you called? I'd like to buy some charge sessions...