Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[DaveEV]

I've devoted considerable time to studying it, and you could provide a good basic infrastructure for California's major highways with just 20-25 stations spaced every 100-150 miles, not counting those in urban areas. 300+ miles of range eases the siting problems considerably.

Sounds suspiciously like Tesla's Supercharger network, except without the benefit and ease of charging at home for most of your charging.

In fact, Tesla will have about 25 Superchargers locations in California by the end of the year.

No need to wait for fuel cells, just go buy a Model S!

By the time the first production fuel cell vehicles start hitting the showroom floors, Tesla will have finished building enough Superchargers to cover the entire nation (not to mention most of Europe, Japan and probably good portions of China) and will be ready to launch it's Gen-3 sedan - all at a cost less than to similar to a fuel cell vehicle, but without the hassle of having to fuel up at a rare hydrogen fueling station regularly.

I only really see fuel cells working for medium to long-haul trucking applications where you need a lot of energy density. But then most of that should really be moved to rail, anyway.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Have to agree that fuel cells are needed but only in commercial applications along major routes where an infrastructure can be in place within months. This allows continued research to improve the tech. For consumer use? Still at least a decade away

Apparently decades are shorter here in California, Dave, as the next one will arrive in 2015 with the first reasonably affordable FCEV/FCHV that anyone can buy. But fleets will likely be the main users of FCEVs while the infrastructure is built up.

a single announcement by toyota saying they will start selling cars in 2015 is not my idea of "arrival". Look at where EVs are after 3 years. In many places they are just now getting off the ground. Besides, after what we have been thru, announcements mean nothing to me.

Now all this has been said before but bears repeating in that there is no way to fill a fuel cell other than a very expensive facility. the thought of making hydrogen in your garage is laughable and I most likely couldnt do it anyway due to the monstrous set of rules in my area but that is a non issue not to mention the amount of work that has to be involved with a system designed to fill a 10,000 PSI system.

I also find it VERY difficult to believe that anyone other than true die-hard H2 pioneers will go more than a few miles out of their way to fuel up even if its only once a week (if you drive that little then there REALLY is no reason to not be driving a LEAF) especially when its going to cost them the same as gasoline. Now EV'ers put up with a lot and probably more than mainstream America is willing to deal with but there is a payoff here. I save enough money to make my car payment, insurance and electricity what little that is from reimbursement from work. If you have solar then its even more in your pocket.

But the key point is that my LEAF was NOT stranded while I waited for the state to build a refuel station 10 miles away. (actually I live near the state capital so I expect it to be no more than 6 miles or so...) My LEAF was not stranded while I waited the 16 months for the first fast charger to be turned on.

Now with 200 million in state supplied funding, that will go a long way towards boosting the ideology but that is on paper.

lets see how it pans out in real life but I am willing to bet we are going to need more paper before its all said and done.

 

[Woosie]

From a 1st page comment "Hopefully CA will install a chademo at each hydrogen location to see what is used more.": that would be awesome for me! I pass a hydrogen station on my way to and from work daily.

 

[smkettner]

I also wonder how much electricity is takes to compress a Kg of hydrogen to 5000+ psi.
Could practically run a car on just the gas compression and burning as an after thought

 

[TonyWilliams]

I only really see fuel cells working for medium to long-haul trucking applications where you need a lot of energy density. But then most of that should really be moved to rail, anyway.

And rail could be 100% electrified, too.

 

[smkettner]

I only really see fuel cells working for medium to long-haul trucking applications where you need a lot of energy density. But then most of that should really be moved to rail, anyway.

And rail could be 100% electrified, too.

It is electric now only they carry diesel generators instead of a pantograph.
Last I read Warren was investigating going NG on his train set.

 

[TonyWilliams]

.... We'll have to see how much of a density improvement Tesla can manage in the time after Toyota's FCEV (and any others) is supposed to come to market.

You do understand that virtually all the Hydrogen cars will likely be CARB-ZEV compliance cars, at least through 2017, and sold only in California, just like any other compliance car?

Toyota will drop their battery electric ZEV compliance car altogether, the Rav4 EV, next year and go "all H" for ZEV compliance.

2018 is when the CARB-ZEV game really gets cranked up (or sued / court ordered / otherwise obstructed), making all cars have a maximum of only 3 credits per ZEV car, vice the 7 credits Toyota will get for 300 mile hydrogen cars with "fast-refueling" in model years 2015-2017.

Then, there will be regular 2% increases in ZEV requirements for the next generation. If Toyota, et al, are still stuck with only hydrogen cars then, I will be surprised. Tesla, at the same time (2018) will be selling 50-100k cars that can be refueled nationwide for free forever, or there's the option of never going to any fueling station by fueling up at home and staying within 100 miles of home.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I also wonder how much electricity is takes to compress a Kg of hydrogen to 5000+ psi.
Could practically run a car on just the gas compression and burning as an after thought

I did the math on CNG home refueling and it looked to me like mile for mile you would be using almost as much electricity as you would charging an ev. Slower too.

 

[Berlino]

Could practically run a car on just the gas compression ...

Isn't that someone's idea in India?

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

The article states that Tesla was a supporter.

Planning a FCEV themselves?

No I think Elon supports all competition to build the alternative fuel markets into mainstream.

Maybe. Delivery vehicles, corporate or govt fleets, taxis, that would make sense.

But maybe, Tesla is willing to let competitors get sidetracked by going "all H" for compliance, leaving the BEV market to them, and any other OEM who wants in.

 

[smkettner]

CA can give those H2 cars 100 credits.... it will still be slow going.
How many does Honda lease now?

Looks like 5 were leased in 2012 :shock:

 

[smkettner]

I also wonder how much electricity is takes to compress a Kg of hydrogen to 5000+ psi.
Could practically run a car on just the gas compression and burning as an after thought

I did the math on CNG home refueling and it looked to me like mile for mile you would be using almost as much electricity as you would charging an ev. Slower too.

Last one I saw was 850 watts and takes 8 hours to give 240 mile CNG range. I think the electricity was just 30 miles in that time.

 

[Smidge204]

Last one I saw was 850 watts and takes 8 hours to give 240 mile CNG range. I think the electricity was just 30 miles in that time.

Offer void with hydrogen unless your H2 is "free." :lol:
=Smidge=

 

[AndyH]

...a single announcement by toyota saying they will start selling cars in 2015 is not my idea of "arrival".

June 3, 2013: Hyundai delivers 15 FCEV Tucson SUV's to city of Copenhagen. The FCEV Tucson will be available in the US in 2015. Hyundai's initial target is 1000 Tucson's per year while ramping up to 10,000 per year. Hyundai, Toyota, Mercedes-Benz, and Nissan are part of the hydrogen program.
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/...n-hydrogen-car-delivery-begins-in-europe.html

Mercedes had vehicles available for the California market - apparently the test vehicles will be put into the used pipeline at some point.
http://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/benz/green/electric_car
Their map shows six current refueling stations in the greater LA and Newport Beach areas.

Refueling program info:
http://www.autonews.com/article/201...ota-join-doe-in-fuel-cells-push#axzz2ieiAlRBR

 

[TonyWilliams]

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/09/20130910-zev.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

CARB is meeting today...

NINE (9) credits for hydrogen cars for 2015-2017 (and only 7 for 2012-2014).

 

[Nubo]

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/09/20130910-zev.html

CARB is meeting today...

NINE (9) credits for hydrogen cars for 2015-2017 (and only 7 for 2012-2014).

Bleh. It's like watching "Who Killed..." again.

 

[smkettner]

So Honda sells 5 vehicles gaining 45 vs 35 credits. Does it matter?

 

[TonyWilliams]

So Honda sells 5 vehicles gaining 45 vs 35 credits. Does it matter?

I'm not sure what this means... It matters to Honda!!! They can produce even less hydrogen cars, and potentially spend less money overall to comply with CARB mandates so they can sell thousands of oil burners in California.

At 9 credits each, they can sell 1/3 as many hydrogen cars versus the Honda Fit EV which only earns 3 credits.

 

[GRA]

I've devoted considerable time to studying it, and you could provide a good basic infrastructure for California's major highways with just 20-25 stations spaced every 100-150 miles, not counting those in urban areas. 300+ miles of range eases the siting problems considerably.

Sounds suspiciously like Tesla's Supercharger network, except without the benefit and ease of charging at home for most of your charging.

Indeed, but can be spaced farther apart, and with no need to find something to do for prolonged periods of time. They will, as you say, not be able to "fuel" at home unless they are FCHVs. But then we have over 200 million vehicles in this country that suffer from the same handicap, yet they are acceptable to the vast majority of drivers.

In fact, Tesla will have about 25 Superchargers locations in California by the end of the year.

Yup, which is why I don't buy the whole "infrastructure needs make fuel cells impossibly expensive" argument.

No need to wait for fuel cells, just go buy a Model S!

By the time the first production fuel cell vehicles start hitting the showroom floors, Tesla will have finished building enough Superchargers to cover the entire nation (not to mention most of Europe, Japan and probably good portions of China) and will be ready to launch it's Gen-3 sedan - all at a cost less than to similar to a fuel cell vehicle, but without the hassle of having to fuel up at a rare hydrogen fueling station regularly.

I only really see fuel cells working for medium to long-haul trucking applications where you need a lot of energy density. But then most of that should really be moved to rail, anyway.

Again, for road trips and people who live in apartments and have no way to charge at home, longer range, rapid re-fueling at a central point, plus less range decrease in cold weather (and AFAIK no significant range degradation over the life of the car) provide operational advantages that the Tesla S, nice as it is, doesn't. There is room for both BEVs and FCEVs/FCHVs. If you were to offer me the choice of either right now, at the same price and with the same infrastructure (as SCs), I'd take the FCEV hands down; other people with different needs would opt for the BEV. In five years, who knows which I'd prefer - offer me a BEV that can be recharged in 5 or 10 minutes without damage, and with a battery that's good for the life of the car, and my druthers may well be different.

 

[GRA]

I also wonder how much electricity is takes to compress a Kg of hydrogen to 5000+ psi.
Could practically run a car on just the gas compression and burning as an after thought

As I mentioned, IIRR it's something like 10-15% of the energy in the H2, and around 15-20% for 10,000 PSI. There's no question that H2 fuel cells, well to wheels, are currently less energy-efficient than BEVs, and likely to remain so even with metal hydride or nanotube storage. But energy efficiency isn't the be all and end all; people will give up a lot of that for better utility. After all, ICEs didn't defeat BEVs a hundred years ago because they were more energy efficient, and most people driving BEVs now aren't riding bicycles (whether pedal or electric) despite the latter's far greater energy efficiency.