Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[DaveinOlyWA]

if separating water into its core components were viable we would have been driving H2 cars years ago. There is a reason that did not happen. Hydrolysis is very energy intensive, so much so that its only viable when there is massive amounts of energy and no way to get it to civilization.

Geothermal frequently is isolated but the issue with creating hydrogen in remote areas is it then has to be transported and pipelines dont do very well.

Now, I have to admit I am not up on hydrogen but have they figured out how to keep it all in the tank? Seems to me that the hydrogen is constantly leaking out making long term storage in your car a non option. now hoping new carbon fiber technology has solved that problem but betting its not a cheap solution especially for long distance transmission.

the other problem we have is low hanging fruit. Why would anyone make something that costs 20 widgets when they can make it for 4 widgets? So getting hydrogen from NG is not going to go away and when hydrocarbons and Big Oil mix, we get a mess. an ecological mess. Name me ONE time that Big Oil went into a place, got oil, gas or whatever and did no ecological damage?

yeah, ok. Now maybe this new need for NG will dim that 24/7 sunrise in Montana. Last NASA pic I saw of the area a few months ago, the state was lit up like Macy's on Christmas Eve with flare offs burning away into the night.

Ya, that is all we need. another excuse for Big Oil to get some subsidies and special rules...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

And...

Why is the topic gone to the viability of hydrogen when after nearly 3 years, CA's part of the West Coast Green Highway Project is barely off the ground and but all of a sudden they have enough to build 100 hydrogen filling stations?

 

[AndyH]

According to my freshman college chem book, Dave, it's something like this:

2 H2O(l) --> 2 H2(g) + O2(g)

There is something missing from that equation... Energy.

The question will be how many kWh to make a kg of H2
Don't forget transportation and compression.

You're right - no energy labels, but that's sorta the point. H2 isn't a fuel - it's an energy carrier. We all know that every single time we convert one energy form to another we lose some. Just as we cannot expect to get back more energy than we put in, we cannot even expect 1:1 in the real world.

Transportation can be a factor, but doesn't have to be - it's optional. As is compression. As are fossil fuels.

Today we can run hydrogen fuel cells on pure hydrogen, natural gas, biomethane, methanol, ethanol, glycerol, ... each with their own thermodynamic numbers. Which do you prefer? All we need to change sources is either to replace the fuel cell stack with a solid oxide unit, or add a reformer to strip H2 from the ethanol in the tank. With local production, there's no transportation. Using a liquid fuel as an input, there's no compression. Because there are so many ways to generate H2, I'm not concerned about the fossil fuel industry controlling it - they simply cannot.

I go back to Europe's 'third industrial revolution' roadmap because I think this is what's responsible for the renewed push for hydrogen. We need storage for renewables at the home/small business and utility scale. We need to cut all carbon emissions by 2050. The TIR plan being used in Germany, Denmark, the rest of the EU, in China, in the UN for the developing world calls for using all available storage for the electric grid - pumped water, compressed air, batteries, but is focused on hydrogen. It's not focused on H2 from refineries, it's focused on H2 generated by electrolysis. That's where the R&D money's been, that's where the demo programs are focused, mainly. Yes, there's the Audi program I've linked in other areas that uses both electrolysis and synthesized methane, if I recall correctly. The synergy of the whole-systems approach to solving many problems let's us get multiple functions from each piece - and that shifts the efficiency numbers even more in our favor.

With smart micro-grids and local energy production, and with hydrogen used for renewable storage from neighborhood buildings, we could push excess H2 in a low- or medium-pressure pipe to a central high-pressure pump/storage tank/dispenser. That can give us neighborhood scale power generation, combined heat and power from fuel cells, refueling EVs and PHEV (or Plug-in fuel-cell hybrids ) in the garage, and a hydrogen vehicle refueling station. No oil, no natural gas, no gasoline, no diesel, no transportation, and no carbon emissions.

 

[smkettner]

Has SAE-GM started on the engineering yet to come up with a new H2 connector?
Oh that's right they need to wait until Toyota and others start production that matches existing infrastructure :roll:

 

[TonyWilliams]

Has SAE-GM started on the engineering yet to come up with a new H2 connector?
Oh that's right they need to wait until Toyota and others start production that matches existing infrastructure :roll:

What do we call that one?

 

[palmermd]

Has SAE-GM started on the engineering yet to come up with a new H2 connector?
Oh that's right they need to wait until Toyota and others start production that matches existing infrastructure :roll:

What do we call that one?

Bride of Frankenplug

 

[TomT]

Well, there is already a proposed SAE standard for them... Generically, it is a J2600 connector. http://standards.sae.org/j2600_201211/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Has SAE-GM started on the engineering yet to come up with a new H2 connector?

 

[AndyH]

And...

Why is the topic gone to the viability of hydrogen when after nearly 3 years, CA's part of the West Coast Green Highway Project is barely off the ground and but all of a sudden they have enough to build 100 hydrogen filling stations?

Different pots of money.

 

[Nubo]

...This, most of all, gentlemen, is why we should be fighting for the wholesale revolution in energy and transportation. Hybrids are good, except for the tail pipe part. This fixes that problem - clean range. Even if it's temporarily fueled by reformed natural gas or with H2 generated from industrial processes until we get more wind and solar storage and hydrolysis units fielded.

I love you guys, but this is really painful to watch.

Because if we put the cart before the horse, it will be difficult to get to the "until". Because the interests will have become entrenched. H2 as a storage medium does hold promise. Let's use that to build the clean energy production first. Solar and wind plants that store H2 to fill in the valleys and then we can shut up the "what happens when it's dark" people. Once a robust H2 production is in place from renewables, then is the time to encourage H2 for personal transport (if it's even needed by then).

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

And...

Why is the topic gone to the viability of hydrogen when after nearly 3 years, CA's part of the West Coast Green Highway Project is barely off the ground and but all of a sudden they have enough to build 100 hydrogen filling stations?

Different pots of money.

AKA as the Oil Lobby verses the World?

 

[AndyH]

...This, most of all, gentlemen, is why we should be fighting for the wholesale revolution in energy and transportation. Hybrids are good, except for the tail pipe part. This fixes that problem - clean range. Even if it's temporarily fueled by reformed natural gas or with H2 generated from industrial processes until we get more wind and solar storage and hydrolysis units fielded.

I love you guys, but this is really painful to watch.

Because if we put the cart before the horse, it will be difficult to get to the "until". Because the interests will have become entrenched. H2 as a storage medium does hold promise. Let's use that to build the clean energy production first. Solar and wind plants that store H2 to fill in the valleys and then we can shut up the "what happens when it's dark" people. Once a robust H2 production is in place from renewables, then is the time to encourage H2 for personal transport (if it's even needed by then).

With a lot of respect, Nubo, I think I do understand what you're saying here. I know that it's much easier for me to 'divide and conquer' rather than try to juggle all the airborne parts of a complex and intertwined system of systems. But we have two examples of how a piecemeal approach is inferior to taking on all the pieces at once.

Firstly, look at how President Obama supported renewables and EVs with stimulus funding: Some money over here for battery research, some money over there for this project, some cash over here for that project, etc.

Then, look at how Germany and the EU have been pushing toward revamping their energy supply. Yes, it's been much better planned, focused, and funded. In 2005, Angela Merkel became Chancellor of Germany. In 2006 she started Germany's energy transition. How's that working? These comments are from the architect of the plan:

(I'm really sorry - too many words. Most is required background and some is directly on-topic. But head to the 2nd quote (which immediately follows the flow of the main quote) for the 'punch line' of sorts...thanks.)

And lest we think this is a lot of academic patter, Germany, since the Chancellor's come in, Pillar 1: they're at 25% green electricity already and they're heading to 35% by 2020. Pillar 2: Germany's converted one million buildings in the last seven years - they're producing small amounts of [excess] green electricity and a third of a million net jobs. They've just begun. Denmark's doing just as well. So when people say: "It can't be done" it can be done. And when people say: "Well, show me!" let's take the number one economic power per capita in the world Germany and you'll see it being done right there - at near zero marginal cost for energy. Pillar 3: Storage. The sun's not always shining...the wind blows at night and you've got to have the electricity during the day... The water tables can be down for hydroelectricity due to climate change drought... These are intermittent energies and we've got to store them. We at the EU level are in favor of ALL storage: batteries, flywheels, capacitors, air compression, water pumping, we like them all! But I must say we put most of our focus at the center of all these storage networks on hydrogen [using electrolysis and fuel cells]. Engineers, this is a tiny thermodynamic loss compared to bringing oil, coal, gas, and uranium every step of conversion and loss to the end user. Pillar 4 - this is where the internet revolution combines with the new distributed renewable energies to create a nervous system for the new general purpose technology platform. We're using off the shelf internet technology and IT technology and we're transforming the power grid in Europe into an energy internet - a distributed smart grid. If you hear political and business leaders saying: "Oh, we like that smart grid" ask them what kind - centralized or distributed? Centralized means they put an advanced meter on your home and you get all the information only going to them at headquarters and it's all proprietary. That has nothing to do with this. This is an energy internet - a distributed smart grid. It'll connect everything to everything so that when millions of buildings are producing just small amounts of electricity and storing it as hydrogen... Then if you don't need some of that green electricity during the day or week or month, you can program your software right there with your own killer app from home and send that green electricity across an energy internet that in our case extends from the Irish Sea to the doorstep of Russia. Just like we create information, store it in digital, and share it on-line. Deutsche Telekom has tested successfully the smart grid across Germany. Storage is now in with E.ON and Hydrogenics as well - they're just putting it on-line. Pillar 5 - logistics. Electric vehicles are here; fuel cell cars, trucks, and buses between 2015 and 2017 by the six major auto companies - this is a done deal - these are fuel cell vehicles. We'll be able to plug-in our vehicles anywhere, wherever we park across the country there'll will be a parking [spot] plug right there...plug it back into the main grid which is distributed and get green electricity. Let's say you're at work - keep that computer on. So if that electricity price goes up on the grid the computer will tell your car to send your electricity back to the grid. We're already beginning to do that in Europe [on a small scale].

These five pillars are nothing - they're components. It's only when we connect them that we have what we call the general purpose technology platform. It's an infrastructure technology platform. Do not make the mistake that President Obama made...he got bad advice. He wanted a green economy, he still wants a green economy, he spent billions and billions of dollars of tax money for a green economy - it isn't here. Because he spent it on isolated, siloed, pilot projects. So they'd invest in a solar factory in one state, an electric car factory in another state - unconnected! This is an infrastructure revolution.

The second industrial revolution all the industries had to come together - it wasn't enough to have the internal combustion engine. Then it required centralized electricity so that Henry Ford could have mobile electric power tools so the work could come to the worker so that he could build cheap cars and get everyone on wheels. Then we had to have the roads put in at the same time so people had somewhere to travel. But then they needed the gasoline and oil pipelines set in so they could propel the engines. And then they needed centralized phones to come in so they could move the wires to rural areas to create suburbs and take advantage of the interstates... And the biggest prosperity in history was between 1956 and 1988 when we matured the system, put in the interstate highways, did the suburban roll-out, put electricity to the rural areas, and then we peaked in the late 1980s, went into a housing recession. And then after that we lived off our family savings and personal debt. ...our housing and mortgage fiasco, and then we ended up with 14 trillion in debt in 2008 when it all collapsed when oil hit $147 a barrel. A short history.

We understood this in Europe. We had the five pillars, but we moved pillar 1 quickly, and not the other four. So we put in a huge amount of green electricity because we have feed-in tariffs. That is, you're paid premium for sending your green electricity back to the grid beyond what the price of the market is to encourage early adoption. So we have millions of people putting in a little green electricity. Pillar 1! We didn't move pillar 4 quick enough - the energy internet. So we got millions of little players trying to get green electricity into a grid that's 60 years old, servo-mechanical, centralized, leaks 20% of its electricity and it's overwhelmed by all these little players - it can't handle it. Then Pillar 1 has been so successful we have so much green electricity because of the feed-in tariffs - we didn't move Pillar 3 storage fast enough. We've got regions that are 30, 40, 50, and 60% green electricity and we are losing 3 out of 4 kiloWatts because we're not storing the energy. So the electricity is at night because of the wind - we don't need it at night! Sometimes at high-noon there's so much solar going into the grid that we have negative price - meaning the utility pays you to not put the energy on. Then at midnight it goes back up again because we haven't put in Pillar 3 storage. And now our car companies are petrified because they spent billions on electric and fuel cell vehicles, they're sending them to market but if they don't have an infrastructure to plug them into, it's all lost. So we've got to build this out as an infrastructure revolution. And when we do, this third industrial revolution, this is power to the people - I mean this literally and figuratively.

edit...I transcribed this from a webcast talk and it's full of typos. I fixed some, no doubt there are plenty more. Sorry.
Source: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=14559

edit 2... Found a story about E.ON and Hydrogenics' first storage project. For this first plant, hydrogen created by excess wind is being put into the natural gas grid.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/photo-release-e-swissgas-begin-103000912.html

 

[AndyH]

And...

Why is the topic gone to the viability of hydrogen when after nearly 3 years, CA's part of the West Coast Green Highway Project is barely off the ground and but all of a sudden they have enough to build 100 hydrogen filling stations?

Different pots of money.

AKA as the Oil Lobby verses the World?

No, I mean different accounting categories and different pools of approved spending. The best example I have is from my military time. Every budget category was separate. If we had $200K extra in the 'IT Budget' but no money in the 'office furnishings' budget, we couldn't buy desks for the two new people.

The DOE is not legally allowed to spend money allocated to fuel cell infrastructure on EV infrastructure. It's against Federal Law. I expect stage budgeting is very similar.

Jeremy Rifkin doesn't say this in his book "The Third Industrial Revolution" but does say in his talk that most industry in Germany was dead-set against reforming the electricity system. Most of the power companies are still fighting it. But he reports that they're all coming around as it means they can stay in business providing a service that they're uniquely qualified to perform, even if they'd rather provide both generation and energy management, instead of primarily energy management as the coal and nuke plants are shut down.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

ok, a few things here.

1) You are not a politician
2) I am not a member of your constituency

so stop the spin.

Let me tell you my take on all this. We all know that hydrogen cant go anywhere without the public refueling stations. EVs have NEVER had that problem. So at the very basic level, refueling stations have to be paid for.

my point is that the EV industry has no financial support or very little while the Oil Companies have it and surely do not need it. They will profit from these hydrogen stations eventually and will they be paying CA back for the cost of these installs?

I am betting not. I am betting its simply more handouts to people who least need it.

But if not for the money and influence that Big Oil wields, we would be still a decade away from hydrogen as a viable consumer choice which I believe is the statement by me that started all this.

So we as taxpayers (or you all down south) will pay today for something that wont benefit us for years instead of paying today for something that has benefited us a little for nearly 3 years but has the potential to provide MUCH more benefits with proper support. Naturally, we go for the "2 birds in the bush" option.

Only in America

 

[Nubo]

Firstly, look at how President Obama supported renewables and EVs with stimulus funding: Some money over here for battery research, some money over there for this project, some cash over here for that project, etc.

Then, look at how Germany and the EU have been pushing toward revamping their energy supply. Yes, it's been much better planned, focused, and funded. In 2005, Angela Merkel became Chancellor of Germany. In 2006 she started Germany's energy transition. How's that working? These comments are from the architect of the plan:...

Thanks for expounding. I think I'll read that book. I do know I've heard the Fox-News types ranting about how what Germany has done is some type of utter failure. So there probably is a lot of merit in what's happening there.

 

[AndyH]

ok, a few things here.

1) You are not a politician
2) I am not a member of your constituency

so stop the spin.

Dave - if this is directed at me, then let me make very, very clear to you: I certainly am NOT a politician! I do not even have a poker face, and I'm not interested in developing one.

Beyond that, I cannot make heads or tails from the rest of what you've written.

If you'd care to help me understand then please do.

And if you have any sources that show that big oil is behind a move to hydrogen, I'd very much like to see that/those.

Thanks.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

And...

Why is the topic gone to the viability of hydrogen when after nearly 3 years, CA's part of the West Coast Green Highway Project is barely off the ground and but all of a sudden they have enough to build 100 hydrogen filling stations?

Different pots of money.

According to the article that started this thread, it's the same pot. What the new law requires is money that could have been used for 400-500 EVSE per year for ten years.

Though where could you possibly install 4000-5000 QCs in CA?

 

[AndyH]

And...

Why is the topic gone to the viability of hydrogen when after nearly 3 years, CA's part of the West Coast Green Highway Project is barely off the ground and but all of a sudden they have enough to build 100 hydrogen filling stations?

Different pots of money.

According to the article that started this thread, it's the same pot.

You're right - I've been focusing on the nation-wide project, DOE/Federal government funding, etc. and missed the California piece. Thank you, DNA.

Straight to the meat of the article - I think it's a good thing that the state and thus taxpayers are planting the infrastructure - that's what those fees are supposed to be spent on. Anything that continues to push the oil industry into a retirement home is a good thing.

Contrast California with Texas. There are DC chargers in the Dallas/Ft Worth area and Houston, that belong to NRG's EVGo system which is closed/member access. The only high-speed charging available in or between San Antonio and Austin belongs to Tesla - they've installed superchargers on I35. If I want to drive a non-Tesla from San Antonio to Austin, L2 is my only option. We don't have the option of using ANY tax money to plant even a single L3 in this state. I mean this in a nice way, but I really hope Californians appreciate how good they've got it.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

You may have no shoes in Texas, but here we have no feet!

Still waiting for our first QC, of any kind.

And we're so blue we shade NH purple.

 

[TonyWilliams]

GM just announced their new hydrogen standard: Frankengen
Their wireless is Frankenless.

GM also announced that they had zero car for either standard planned.

 

[walterbays]

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2013/10/elon-musk-hydrogen/