eVgo Unveils Houston's 1st 30 minutes Charging Site

[smkettner]

Now if EVgo had a QC every 50 miles between Dallas and Houston that would be a real temptation.
Around one city may not be as much demand.

 

[walterbays]

Obviously eVgo wants you to sign up long term so they have a workable business model, but perhaps they should offer a pay-per-use with a fee of about $10 for the L3 charger, it would be a strong inducement to sign up for the plan and get L3 rights for free plus it would be a service to the ev community.

eVgo would be crazy not to offer pay-per-use to tap the market of people for whom a subscription absolutely does not work. But to offer it too soon would cut into their subscriber base, and they probably want to be sure to get all the subscribers they possibly can before offering an alternative. Long term I agree that a pay-per-use plan would get people started with eVgo and some of them would convert to subscription. They might even change the price differential for pay-per-use from time to time according to how many registered users they had and how many charging stations, so they could maintain a good quality of service for their subscribers.

 

[yoyofella]

Not sure what eVgo's target market is, but I hope some company come up with a business plan for San Francisco. I know I would become a subscriber if I live up there.

 

[eVgoNetwork]

It is good to see so much interest in our DC fast charge network. Many of the comments have focused on our pricing model.

As we pointed out in our previous post, this is a high fixed cost, low marginal cost business model. It doesn't cost that much to deliver an individual charge to a consumer. What is expensive is installing a 50 -70 station DC charging infrastructure across a broad geographic area to make it possible to get a charge quickly and conveniently whenever and wherever needed. This is especially true when one recognizes that most charging will take place at home and we do not anticipate most people plugging in when they are confident they can reach their home and recharge there.

If consumers want the confidence and capabilities that come with such a network, whether they actually use it or just know that it is there if needed, then someone will have to pay for it. If the government pays for it, then everyone, including people who don't even drive a car will pay for all of the fixed costs required to make a charge possible. If the private sector pays for it, these fixed costs can be best balanced by fixed revenue in the form of a monthly subscription plan.

It is a different way of thinking than paying for gas by the gallon at the gas pump but widespread EV adoption will require altering our thinking in a number of ways.

Thank you again for listening and for your valuable feedback.

David Knox
Communications Director
eVgo

 

[adric22]

If consumers want the confidence and capabilities that come with such a network, whether they actually use it or just know that it is there if needed, then someone will have to pay for it. If the government pays for it, then everyone, including people who don't even drive a car will pay for all of the fixed costs required to make a charge possible. If the private sector pays for it, these fixed costs can be best balanced by fixed revenue in the form of a monthly subscription plan.

I think we all understand the idea behind a subscription plan. And as I've stated before, it makes sense for some people, maybe even a lot of people. But it doesn't make sense for everyone. And it seems to me like eVgo would want to capitalize on every potential customer to help recoup the cost of the infrastructure. By not offering to sell the service to everyone, then that is free money being lost. I use the word "free" in the aspect that it would not cost eVgo any additional money for each use of the station, other than the electricity, which we all know is negligible.

Another thing that comes to mind is capitalism. If 100% of customers are subscription customers then eVgo has no incentive to place charging stations where they are needed. For example, lets create a hypothetical scenario. Lets say there are 2 chargers at a local mall. Lets say they are always in use and many drive-by customers, perhaps even subscription paying customers, will not be able to make use of the stations. eVgo doesn't lose any money in this situation as their income remains the same no matter what. But in a more free-market scenario where a company would make money by each use of the station, it would be in the company's benefit to keep adding stations to areas where there is more demand. If people are constantly driving by and the stations are full, that is money lost by not adding additional stations to that location.

I'm a business man and I study economics. I see this current plan as a dead-end. When more and more free-market charging stations begin to appear, fewer and fewer people will spend the money for a monthly eVgo subscription, unless that subscription actually saves them money. Take Netflix for example. Their subscription plan worked well because it was convenient but also offered a better value over their chief competitors such as blockbuster. This will especially be true when they realize that their eVgo subscription won't allow them to use chargers from Blink or Chargepoint or other 3rd parties. So they'll have to pay out of their pocket for those, on top of their eVgo subscription. So it will make sense to just drop the eVgo subscription.

The charging station business is eventually going to turn out to be just like the vending machine business. The ones that will make the money money will be the ones in the most prime locations, negotiated with property owners. But i've never seen a subscription based vending machine business before.

I've actually thought about investing some of my own money into some charging stations at some prime locations in DF/W. Unfortunately, knowing it will take 5 to 10 years or more for payback has been a tough sell with my wife.

 

[erdalc]

I pass by an Evgo station everyday. I have not seen any car being charged yet.Evgo should let us use it either free or pay per charge. I currentlyspent $21 for 1500 miles in almost 2 months. I do not see any reason to pay $49 monthly subscription that I might need their stations 1 or 2 times in a month.

 

[philaphonic]

I pass by an Evgo station everyday. I have not seen any car being charged yet.Evgo should let us use it either free or pay per charge. I currentlyspent $21 for 1500 miles in almost 2 months. I do not see any reason to pay $49 monthly subscription that I might need their stations 1 or 2 times in a month.

+1

 

[shay]

I pass by an Evgo station everyday. I have not seen any car being charged yet.Evgo should let us use it either free or pay per charge. I currentlyspent $21 for 1500 miles in almost 2 months. I do not see any reason to pay $49 monthly subscription that I might need their stations 1 or 2 times in a month.

It is actually $79 / month to use the mobile station(s). The $49 is just leasing the home EVSE.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Evgo should let us use it either free or pay per charge.

You think that their problem with not having a busy charger is not giving it to you free?

As a guy seriously exploring DC charging for San Diego (currently with more LEAFs than anywhere, and ZERO of what your area has), your comments are sharply sobering for somebody contemplating investing a large amount of money in this venture.

Obviously, those relatively small number of EV drivers will be an even smaller number who will pay for any charge outside their home. The total volume of customers is extremely small for a low priced item that those few customers will use in low volume with an expensive delivery system. Without the government handouts that we Americans demand, it's a really poor business model. With $110 million of Obama bucks, Ecotality here in San Diego is having a difficult time "giving" them away.

Eating steak at your house, not factoring the value and cost of your house, will always be cheaper
than eating at a commercial, for profit business elsewhere. If you had gasoline pouring out you garden hose for 10 cents per gallon, you would be less likely to pay $4 elsewhere, UNLESS YOU REALLY needed it.

So, I agree that in addition to a membership model, that the units be offered at maybe $30-$50 per charge ad hoc. You were never going to actually contribute to the very, very expensive infrastructure, therefore you would never buy that membership anyway.

But, in that rare event you were stuck, that $30-$50 is money that they would not get from you any other way.

I would perhaps add a time of day issue. Most cars start the day at 100%, so not too many folks will
be charging much before noon, so perhaps the ad hoc charge would be cheaper then... $20?

At peak grid load, after lunch until the evening, maybe $50.

Or you could pay the membership.

Edit: I'd add a reservation system for members that would lock out ad hoc charging, so that infrastructure supporters always get in.

 

[davewill]

So, I agree that in addition to a membership model, that the units be offered at maybe $30-$50 per charge ad hoc. You were never going to actually contribute to the very, very expensive infrastructure, therefore you would never buy that membership anyway.

I do believe I might PUSH the damned car home before I let myself get hosed for $50 a charge. I might spend $20, but I'd resent it and avoid it except for dire emergency. Seriously, if they can't make $10 a charge (5x my home price) work, it's a hopeless business case and they might as well pack it in. The whole membership thing is completely suspect, at this early stage. I'm supposed to spend $80 a month for something I might not get to use? What if there are multiple competing networks in my area? Am I now supposed to spend $80 times three? Membership works for Costco because there are plenty of non-membership places to buy that stuff, plus I can have confidence that Costco will be there when I need them. When there are QCs littered around like gas stations, then maybe a membership scenario makes sense, but not now.

 

[Pipcecil]

While eVgo's model may not work for everyone it works for some, like myself. My wife and I use the DC charger (there is currently only one in DFW) about once a week, sometimes more. My wife has a horrible long long commute with lots of freeway. Even though her company lets her trickle charge at work (120v), there has been a few times (especially as it gets colder or if bad traffic or accident) she has to QC on the way home. Without the QC she wouldn't be able to take the car to work (she prefers the leaf over her sports car now). In addition, being in a far away suburb, the QC allows us to go into the downtown and north area with the leaf instead of her ICE car (like everyone here we want to take our leaf everywhere!). We usually end up making trips into the downtown or northside of DFW almost every week, and we usually have to use the QC to get home.

For me, we have already gotten our money's worth. Yes, on those times I could have found a blink or chargepoint (or dealership) and done level 2, but waiting 3 or 4 hours at a dealership to charge is not my idea of spending a saturday afternoon.

So say what you will, but some of us have absolutely relied on eVgo and the DC chargers. And for those whom have never seen a car at the charger, just the other day my wife was QCing on the way home from work and had to wait in line since someone was already there!

 

[TonyWilliams]

So, I agree that in addition to a membership model, that the units be offered at maybe $30-$50 per charge ad hoc. You were never going to actually contribute to the very, very expensive infrastructure, therefore you would never buy that membership anyway.

I do believe I might PUSH the damned car home before I let myself get hosed for $50 a charge. I might spend $20, but I'd resent it and avoid it except for dire emergency. Seriously, if they can't make $10 a charge (5x my home price) work, it's a hopeless business case and they might as well pack it in

The cost at your home is a Red Herring. I can watch a movie at home for free (again, not factoring the house and TV costs), but plenty are happily paying $10-20 to go to a theater.

Plenty of people are paying way more $50 to fill their car up over and over. They could walk or ride the bus (or buy an electric car) and travel much cheaper.

I thought I had read the most obtuse statement about quick charge costs months ago when somebody suggested that they would only pay the cost of electricity, and presumably the tooth fairy would handle the other $30k-$50k in equipment costs. Free is just better, I guess!

It's obvious that a very, very low percentage of those who post on this forum find little monetary value to QC. Which means the cost per individual charge will be high for those very few who do find value in it.

Or, it can be subsidized until critical mass of EVs will sustain a network. It looks like eVgo is using that model, since there is no way these things will make money with the low volume of customers available now, AT ANY PRICE!

When / if gas price doubles again, and there are lots more EVs, there's hope for QCing. Hotels were once rare... Too expensive.

 

[davewill]

The cost at your home is a Red Herring. I can watch a movie at home for free (again, not factoring the house and TV costs), but plenty are happily paying $10-20 to go to a theater.

I respectfully disagree. The cost to watch recent released movies at home is actually quite high, first runs, like the theater shows, aren't available at all. The movie theater is actually giving me a value...although the local theater just went from $8-10 bucks a pop to some luxury chain that apparently serves sushi at your seat for $20 plus. Needless to say, I won't be patronizing them. QC does represent a value added, and I said I'd pay $10-$20, which is significant premium over my home cost.

... Plenty of people are paying way more $50 to fill their car up over and over. They could walk or ride the bus (or buy an electric car) and travel much cheaper. ...

And if I were getting the 300-500 miles of range they were for their $50, I might see some value in it. Also, remember, we're the same folks who bought Prii and EVs partially because we balked at paying that much for gas.

I'm forced to agree there is not a viable QC market at the present time.

 

[Danal]

Has it crossed anyone's mind that perhaps electrical "Tariff" laws do not allow any one to sell "pay by the charge" at the moment? It would basically be selling electricity, and you can't do that if you are not a registered provider.

Maybe?

 

[Danal]

So, lets do a little math. Commercial electricity in the DFW area is about 12 to 14 cents per kWH (home is less, commercial is more). A full charge is going to consume somewhere more than the 24kWH nominal capacity of the pack, lets just guess at 30kWH or so to make the math easy. That's probably pretty high, as the value in a quick charge is it's quickness, and the last 20% happens at the same speed on all chargers... but we'll stick with it for the purpose of illustration.

30 * .14 = $4.20 in electricity. Or less. Maybe as little as $3.20 following the 80% logic. Anyway we now have a cost range.

Given that electric cost I'd be willing to pay $8 to $10 for a "pay as you go" charge. No more. If 100% markup is not enough margin for the business model of a charge provider, so be it. I'm simply not willing to pay more than 100% markup.



By the way, eVgo now offers a "pay only for the network, charge all you want" plan. Just announced it a week or so ago, not on the web site yet. $39 per month. By my logic above, use the charger more than 4 times a month and you come out ahead on this plan. Use it more than 8 to 10 times and your ahead of their raw cost. And... Billing will not start until 70 (yes, you read that correctly, seventy) eVgo network chargers are online in the DFW area. Note these don't have to all be quick chargers... but still, 70 Level 2 charge stations, with some QCs mixed in, would be pretty nice. See the snip from the contract below. Until then, it is effectively free.

I'd still like to see them have a "pay as you go" so that I can try it. But, I may sign up for the network only plan. Maybe.

C. For the purposes of this Contract:
i. “ETF” means an early termination fee in the amount of $99.00.
ii. “Initial Term” means one (1) year from the Service Commencement Date.
iii.“Network Billing Commencement Date” means the date on which seventy (70) public chargers have been installed as part of the eVgo Network in the
Service Market.
iv.“Off-Peak Hours” does not apply.
v. “Reimbursement Rate” does not apply.
vi.“Service Market” means the greater Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area.
vii.“Service Commencement Date” means, in lieu of the definition set forth in the Terms and Conditions, the date on which eVgo issues you an eVgo Key Fob.

 

[TonyWilliams]

So, lets do a little math....

30 * .14 = $4.20 in electricity. Or less. Maybe as little as $3.20 following the 80% logic. Anyway we now have a cost range.

Given that electric cost I'd be willing to pay $8 to $10 for a "pay as you go" charge. No more. If 100% markup is not enough margin for the business model of a charge provider, so be it. I'm simply not willing to pay.....

You costs are not accurate (well, they may be for just the electricity). Lots of other far bigger costs. Here in San Diego, your $3 worth of electricity gets an additional monthly charge, every month, of $4000. Then insurance, depreciation, maintenance, legal (how many times do you think they'll get sued for the stupidest stuff?), etc.

I doubt there's not a demand fee structure in DFW, albeit I'm confident it's cheaper.

C. For the purposes of this Contract:
i. “ETF” means an early termination fee in the amount of $99.00.
ii. “Initial Term” means one (1) year from the Service Commencement Date.
iii.“Network Billing Commencement Date” means the date on which seventy (70) public chargers have been installed as part of the eVgo Network in the
Service Market.
iv.“Off-Peak Hours” does not apply.
v. “Reimbursement Rate” does not apply.
vi.“Service Market” means the greater Dallas-Fort Worth metropolitan area.
vii.“Service Commencement Date” means, in lieu of the definition set forth in the Terms and Conditions, the date on which eVgo issues you an eVgo Key Fob.

[/quote]

 

[TonyWilliams]

I forgot to add that Econ 101 teaches that cost has little bearing on market price. Obviously, few would pay, myself included, the cost for a single DC charge in San Diego. But, I'd pay $20-$30, I think.

 

[shay]

So say what you will, but some of us have absolutely relied on eVgo and the DC chargers

Where else besides Beltline and Montfort is there an evgo DC station?

 

[shay]

I forgot to add that Econ 101 teaches that cost has little bearing on market price. Obviously, few would pay, myself included, the cost for a single DC charge in San Diego. But, I'd pay $20-$30, I think.

This would be an interesting usage pattern to analyze: what would be optimum price and frequency yield the highest gross margin. This is what business cases would be built on for some entity to put in a QC station. In San Diego it would be a lot easier to justify the business case since there is a much larger base of QC equipped EVs. In Dallas market, I am not sure how many QC equipped EVs. Pipcecil's and my Leaf both have QC ports. I know adric22's Leaf is not equipped. To me it is a tough business case to make in the DFW market. You are talking about a large cost just to install it plus all of the other things you previously mentioned. Plus DFW spans a fairly large area. The only DFW QC station that I know of is actually across the street from 2 Blink stations which erodes the demand some what.

 

[dfwcre8tive]

So say what you will, but some of us have absolutely relied on eVgo and the DC chargers

Where else besides Beltline and Montfort is there an evgo DC station?

That's the only one in DFW for now. I was talking to the maintenance guy at the station the other evening and he said that Plano, Duncanville and the Mid-Cities were next in line (40 more planned for the region).