Cost to Own an EV vs. Gasoline Vehicle

[DaveinOlyWA]

$600 in electricity is enough for me to drive 22,500 miles, at least ... and that's California electricity prices. Not sure how they're calculating those costs.

(600/.13)/.3 = 15,384 miles, assuming .13 $/kWH, 0.3 kWH/mile, and $600 spent in that one year. My electricity is .128 dollars per kWH, so .13 is reasonable. They say the $600 will get you 15k miles, not far off, close.

$600 of electricity at 13 cents will get me over 22,000 miles.

I am genuinely confused by why people are getting such drastically worse mileage per kWh than I am. According to LeafSpy and the info display on the Leaf, for the last 248 miles since I last reset I've average 4.8 miles per kWh. That's probably about 50% freeway driving at 65-70 mph with a 1,000-foot elevation drop and then back up from start to finish. The city driving is the same deal, usually involves at least a couple hundred feet of elevation drop and then climb back up on the return trip. I would think the uphill return would cut into my overall efficiency instead of improving it since I can only get about 2 miles per kWh uphill.

At that usage, driving 10,000 miles per year would cost me about $250.

So the EPA sticker doesn't fit you. Well, we know that "one size fits all" only fits one size, right?

There is a 12% penalty based on LEAF Dash numbers from the wall. Granted that doesn't cover the entire discrepancy but I also average 4.8 miles/kwh (actually hit 5 per kwh occasionally) in Summer but lucky to hit 4 miles/kwh in Winter. So 3.8 miles/kwh (current monthly average) for 1000 miles is 299 kwh after accounting for charging inefficiencies at my cost would be $34 per 1000 miles

BUT

Estimating your cost w/o considering public charging costs is disingenuous so your confusion can only be why people spend that much for transportation. I feel the same way about every gasser in town.

Finally; my 2011 had two different places to track miles/kwh and for some reason the monthly record was always .1 to .2 miles/kwh higher than my daily numbers. I figured it was a rounding error but rounding errors generally don't err the same way all the time like my 2011 did so I stopped using the monthly numbers as it would appear it wasn't a running total over the month and likely separate trips added together.

Now, there is a lot to say about daily recordings as well but w/o anything else to check it, I have to think I was a bit high sometimes, a bit low sometimes and occasionally right on.

 

[SageBrush]

So the EPA sticker doesn't fit you [SBCLeaf]. Well, we know that "one size fits all" only fits one size, right?

He should realize that EPA did not fit him in his other cars, either.

I've tracked my fuel economy across 20 years, 5 cars and 3 drivetrain technologies. I always end up 10-20% above EPA. That is not the car(s), it is the way I drive and my local conditions.

 

[SBCLeaf]

He should realize that EPA did not fit him in his other cars, either.

I've tracked my fuel economy across 20 years, 5 cars and 3 drivetrain technologies. I always end up 10-20% above EPA. That is not the car(s), it is the way I drive and my local conditions.

I'm pretty sure anyone who's advanced beyond eating crayons can notice that number n <> y. I don't think I've ever posed the question, "are my numbers different than the EPA numbers?" If I have, please let me know so I can clarify any confusing wording.

What I'm trying to understand is how it's possible that there are an equal number of people that far below it to make the EPA numbers the average. With electric driving it's easier to explain the discrepancy because of cold weather performance and heating using battery power, but with gasoline it becomes far more difficult.

 

[SageBrush]

What I'm trying to understand is how it's possible that there are an equal number of people that far below it to make the EPA numbers the average.

Is ^^ English ?

If your desire is to understand how the EPA fuel economy number is set, it is this:
The driver population is presumed to be a binomial distribution. The EPA value is set one SD below the mean.

 

[voltamps]

If your desire is to understand how the EPA fuel economy number is set, it is this:
The driver population is presumed to be a binomial distribution. The EPA value is set one SD below the mean.

Wait, no.
EPA MPG city/highway numbers come from running standard routes. Tests that are the same for any vehicle so we can use the numbers to compare one car to another. Those routes are run on a dyno, with drag coefficient & inertia loads simulated, which does work.
https://auto.howstuffworks.com/fuel-efficiency/fuel-economy/28004-epa-fuel-economy-explained.htm

If one gets better or worse than the EPA estimates, it is because your driving cycle doesn't match up appreciably to the standard route tests (speed & acceleration profiles over time, with brake usage, air conditioner usage, heater usage, etc.).
Example: Driver "A" mostly does 50 mph on flat roads, and gets great MPG (or range or MPGe in an electric car). Driver "B" does a lot of stop-n-go which gets him a different energy efficiency than "A".

 

[SageBrush]

If your desire is to understand how the EPA fuel economy number is set, it is this:
The driver population is presumed to be a binomial distribution. The EPA value is set one SD below the mean.

Wait, no.
EPA MPG city/highway numbers come from running standard routes.

For the raw data -- sure.
But what you see on window sticker is massaged, to match what I wrote above.

 

[voltamps]

If your desire is to understand how the EPA fuel economy number is set, it is this:
The driver population is presumed to be a binomial distribution. The EPA value is set one SD below the mean.

Wait, no.
EPA MPG city/highway numbers come from running standard routes.

For the raw data -- sure.
But what you see on window sticker is massaged, to match what I wrote above.

You might be confusing the 10% they shave off the dyno results (5 cycles run) with some kind of bell curve sigma math you described.

What the EPA MPG window sticker is: The dyno tests, minus 10% taken off for all the things the test might not cover well ( "These include
wind, low tire pressure, rough roads, hills, snow or ice, carrying cargo, and certain differences between the gasoline we use for our tests and that which is typically available at the pump (ethanol doping)." ) -- https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/P100IENB.PDF?Dockey=P100IENB.PDF

 

[SageBrush]

Wait, no.
EPA MPG city/highway numbers come from running standard routes.

For the raw data -- sure.
But what you see on window sticker is massaged, to match what I wrote above.

You might be confusing the 10% they shave off the dyno results (5 cycles run) with some kind of bell curve sigma math you described.

What the EPA MPG window sticker is: The dyno tests, minus 10% taken off for all the things the test might not cover well ( "These include
wind, low tire pressure, rough roads, hills, snow or ice, carrying cargo, and certain differences between the gasoline we use for our tests and that which is typically available at the pump (ethanol doping)." ) -- https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyPDF.cgi/P100IENB.PDF?Dockey=P100IENB.PDF

This wiki is a good review
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTP-75#Highway_driving

The 5 cycle test is not widely implemented by manufacturers. Much more common is using the 2-cycle and then applying a correction factor as I mentioned above. Whether 2-cycle + fudge factor or 5-cycle, the result is designed to encompass ~ 2/3 of drivers.

 

[berferd]

You can choose for yourself whether to have the annual battery test performed (first two are free), but I am not going to give Nissan an "out" on the battery warranty by missing the tests. The battery test printout the dealer gives you is not worth much (they do record and send a bunch of information to Nissan), but you can get a lot of information and have a lot of diagnostic capability by getting the Leaf Spy Pro app (Android or iOS) and a suitable OBDII port adapter to communicate with your phone/tablet. After seeing how bad the gearcase oil was in my 2015 when I finally changed it, I will be changing the oil in my 2019 at about 30,000 mile intervals. I will also be changing brake fluid every couple of years since the cost is minimal.

This may be common knowledge, but I read every word of the warranty booklet that came with my 2019 SV Plus and no where did it specify having to have an annual battery test.

 

[GerryAZ]

You can choose for yourself whether to have the annual battery test performed (first two are free), but I am not going to give Nissan an "out" on the battery warranty by missing the tests. The battery test printout the dealer gives you is not worth much (they do record and send a bunch of information to Nissan), but you can get a lot of information and have a lot of diagnostic capability by getting the Leaf Spy Pro app (Android or iOS) and a suitable OBDII port adapter to communicate with your phone/tablet. After seeing how bad the gearcase oil was in my 2015 when I finally changed it, I will be changing the oil in my 2019 at about 30,000 mile intervals. I will also be changing brake fluid every couple of years since the cost is minimal.

This may be common knowledge, but I read every word of the warranty booklet that came with my 2019 SV Plus and no where did it specify having to have an annual battery test.

Carefully read the paragraph titled "Maintenance, Data Access, and Records" on page 9 of the 2019 LEAF Warranty Information Booklet. Also read the paragraph titled "EV Battery Usage Report" on page 9 of the 2019 LEAF Service and Maintenance Guide.

 

[SageBrush]

Carefully read the paragraph titled "Maintenance, Data Access, and Records" on page 9 of the 2019 LEAF Warranty Information Booklet. Also read the paragraph titled "EV Battery Usage Report" on page 9 of the 2019 LEAF Service and Maintenance Guide.

I'm not a lawyer, but I do have an opinion worth a grain of salt:

If the annual checks are not performed, the customer is open to the possibility of Nissan denying warranty coverage based on their opinion that an annual check would have saved them warranty expense. My further opinion, worth at most a grain of salt, is the burden of proof is on Nissan and amounts to an empty threat, particularly if the only thing going on is garden variety LEAF typical accelerated battery degradation.

Lastly, the USA has a consumer protection law that prevents manufacturers from requiring service in order to be eligible for warranty repairs although a warranty expense that would have been prevented by recommended service is not covered. The Nissan warranty can be read to be saying the same thing, albeit couched in threatening language.

--
I think it prudent to get the free checks to document a degradation pattern. I would not pay to document that the same pattern is continuing.
Moreover, I cannot think of a single case in which Nissan tried to avoid warranty coverage based on missing annual checks. Does anyone know of such a case ? That really is telling since Nissan will otherwise tell customers to pound sound if the letter of the warranty is missed by an iota.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Those reports don't document degradation. They are nothing but a report card of your driving/charging habits.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Those reports don't document degradation. They are nothing but a report card of your driving/charging habits.

They record the only degradation metric that Nissan recognizes: bar loss.

 

[SageBrush]

Those reports don't document degradation. They are nothing but a report card of your driving/charging habits.

They record the only degradation metric that Nissan recognizes: bar loss.

The consumer facing report is only a small subset of the information acquired and sent to Nissan.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Those reports don't document degradation. They are nothing but a report card of your driving/charging habits.

They record the only degradation metric that Nissan recognizes: bar loss.

The consumer facing report is only a small subset of the information acquired and sent to Nissan.

This I can believe. I am wondering if the wifi isn't already doing that anyway. With my 12 volt battery issues, I decided to turn off wi fi to see if that helped any but it does not stay off. I turn it off and it stays off anywhere from a few hours to just over a day? Seems a bit fishy?

In the past few weeks, I have probably turned it off a dozen times

 

[voltamps]

I decided to turn off wi fi to see if that helped any but it does not stay off. I turn it off and it stays off anywhere from a few hours to just over a day? Seems a bit fishy?
In the past few weeks, I have probably turned it off a dozen times

Is the Leaf's wifi connecting to your home's wireless router? If so, change or delete the Leaf's password to your home wireless router, & it can't get on the internet that way.

The only other way a Leaf can get on the internet (if it cannot use a nearby wifi hotspot) is if it "telematics" out over the cell phone network. Our Leafs can do that anytime I guess! There is probably a way to disable telematics if necessary.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

I decided to turn off wi fi to see if that helped any but it does not stay off. I turn it off and it stays off anywhere from a few hours to just over a day? Seems a bit fishy?
In the past few weeks, I have probably turned it off a dozen times

Is the Leaf's wifi connecting to your home's wireless router? If so, change or delete the Leaf's password to your home wireless router, & it can't get on the internet that way.

The only other way a Leaf can get on the internet (if it cannot use a nearby wifi hotspot) is if it "telematics" out over the cell phone network. Our Leafs can do that anytime I guess! There is probably a way to disable telematics if necessary.

Don't see why that would matter. My car can see a dozen different networks.

 

[voltamps]

Don't see why that would matter. My car can see a dozen different networks.

I think(?) you're saying the car hears neighbor's & your own WiFi (802.11a/b/g/n/ac), but remember, it doesn't connect to a wireless router in the area unless it knows the password. Some routers are not password protected, but most are.
Therefore, hearing WiFi in an area doesn't mean data is shared with the internet.

Different than wifi, we may have no control over turning off the Leaf's cell phone path to the internet. That telematics might have an option somewhere to switch it off, but that's what Nissan could use to pass data to & from a Leaf, like what Tesla does.

Telematics were on a 2007 BMW 5-series I had, and it would tell a local dealership when the car wanted an oil change. Very annoying.
Also, GM has used it for quite a while to actually keep a maintenance record automatically, and email the owner the results of maintenance needs.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Don't see why that would matter. My car can see a dozen different networks.

I think(?) you're saying the car hears neighbor's & your own WiFi (802.11a/b/g/n/ac), but remember, it doesn't connect to a wireless router in the area unless it knows the password. Some routers are not password protected, but most are.
Therefore, hearing WiFi in an area doesn't mean data is shared with the internet.

Different than wifi, we may have no control over turning off the Leaf's cell phone path to the internet. That telematics might have an option somewhere to switch it off, but that's what Nissan could use to pass data to & from a Leaf, like what Tesla does.

Telematics were on a 2007 BMW 5-series I had, and it would tell a local dealership when the car wanted an oil change. Very annoying.
Also, GM has used it for quite a while to actually keep a maintenance record automatically, and email the owner the results of maintenance needs.

Ok, my Cellphone will connect to "known" connections when the Wi Fi is turned off. It will occasionally simply turn on even if the connection is not one I can connect to. Are you saying my car will do the same? Because if that is the case, then the ability to disable wi fi in settings means nothing.

the other thing is if you are correct, my car would connect to my home wi fi every time its in range which it does not. I just went out and checked it and its off. Last time I turned it off was yesterday morning when I got the "wi fi disconnecting" message which means I am no longer connected to my house but the wi fi service is still on supposedly looking for something else.

 

[voltamps]

Ok, my Cellphone will connect to "known" connections when the Wi Fi is turned off. It will occasionally simply turn on even if the connection is not one I can connect to. Are you saying my car will do the same? Because if that is the case, then the ability to disable wi fi in settings means nothing.

the other thing is if you are correct, my car would connect to my home wi fi every time its in range which it does not. I just went out and checked it and its off. Last time I turned it off was yesterday morning when I got the "wi fi disconnecting" message which means I am no longer connected to my house but the wi fi service is still on supposedly looking for something else.

Maybe Nissan addresses all this on their youtube channel (select your year & model Nissan): https://www.youtube.com/c/NissanOwnerChannel/featured

Some basics:
Wifi (802.11) can only connect with secured wireless routers or modems, to access the internet, when they are told what the password is.
Some wireless routers or modems at homes or businesses are UNsecured, meaning they are not password protected, but those are few & far between. The Leaf, with Wifi enabled (turned on), could conceivably connect to UNsecured wireless routers or modems, but NOT to most which are password protected.

NissanConnect EV uses the cell phone network to send messages to Nissan and/or Nissan contractors who send/receive data to/from the Leaf. I don't know about other model years, but my '20 Leaf SV has Bluetooth, Wifi, & USB, as well as the cell phone based NissanConnect EV capability.

From the main menu on a '20 Leaf: Select Settings --->"Connections" to see the Wifi routers or modems it hears.

The Wifi page does say something about potential "Software Updates". I assume they can do some OTA updates with a cooperating owner who tells the Leaf the wifi password. Tesla has always done this over the cell phone network which requires no customer involvement.

From the main menu again, Select Settings & scroll over to see "NissanConnect EV & Services" and you can tell it not to violate your privacy by selecting everything you can on the list and turn them off.

Strange how Nissan markets NissanConnect as "powered by SiriusXM", yet it simply relies on cell phone networks, not satellites.