WetEV
Well-known member
SBCLeaf said:
Some here in Washington have $0.026 per kWh rates, last I checked. Generally Coop power with contracts for cheep hydro.
Cost to Own an EV vs. Gasoline Vehicle
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Some here in Washington have $0.026 per kWh rates, last I checked. Generally Coop power with contracts for cheep hydro.
Your 4.45 miles/kWH is 0.22 kWH/mile, so you're doing mostly non-highway, little heater use, yes.SBCLeaf said:
Yes, 0.30 kWH/mile is exactly the 2020 Nissan Leaf SV figure from running the EPA's mixed City & Highway style driving.
If you're on the highway a lot, and/or use the heater, your efficiency will be worse.
City driving cycles, low-speed stuff, less aero drag to fight, results in better efficiency.
It all depends on your specific driving cycle. If estimating costs, it's best to assume mixed City/Highway driving, not purely one or the other only.
Slow steady speeds, and you'll get 0.2 kWH/mile as "Real World" for that driver.
Fast driving means 0.4 kWH/mile as "Real World".
Real World is a bell curve, and we want to use the average.
That's an average 0.3 kWH/mile, the correct one to use in notional calculations.
voltamps said:
On highway driving I usually average around 5.0 - 5.2 mi/kWh (0.19 - 0.20 kWh/mile) if I keep it around 65 mph. It would be a lot better but I have a 800-foot elevation gain on my usual return trip on the highway.
The one-way elevation profile looks like this:
I go down that on the way and back up on the way back.
0.4 kWh per mile is incomprehensible to me. That's close to what I get driving UP a mountain road from 2,000 feet to 8,000 feet going ~50 mph.
I cannot discern the distance traveled but your statement implies a good 40 - 45 mile drive up.SBCLeaf said:
m = 1700 Kg
g - 9.8
h = 1830 meters
= 1700*9.8*1830 = 8.45 kWh
Over 40 miles that is 8450/40 = 211 Wh/mile just to climb, before accounting for battery and drivetrain losses. Driving at 50 mph saves a lot of aero friction.
SageBrush said:
That drive is 12 miles each way. It's about 300 meters of elevation gain over 12 miles.
Going uphill I only get about 2 - 2.5 mi/kWh. Going downhill I can get as much as 10.
The graph is very exaggerated. It's only about a 1.5% slope on average. If I'm not in a hurry I'll find a truck climbing the hill and drive behind them to improve efficiency. I won't get close enough to draft them, but it helps keep the other cars from being angry with me for going only 55 - 60 mph.
Steelcity
Well-known member
SBCLeaf said:
Yep I'm paying 3.9 cents per kWh.
Steelcity
Well-known member
SMH, where do you reside? West coast.?SBCLeaf said:
I think you're right. I took a look on the internet of reports, and you would probably have to be running the Leaf's heater, in a headwind, while it's cold outside, doing 75 mph, to get as high as 0.4 kWH/mile. The EPA's estimate of mixed city/hiway 0.3 kWH/miles seems to be easily beaten just by driving moderately it appears. Maybe an expected range is from 0.35 kWH/mile to 0.2 kWH/mile as more "typical". The middle of that range would be 0.28 kWH/mile, which happens to be about what I averaged on my Ford Focus Electric for 5 years.SBCLeaf said:
I read an article where the new Mustang Mach-E is getting about 0.4 kWH/mile if you drive it fast. It is bigger than a Leaf though.
One main point, just Physics, is that the power required to overcome air drag is proportional to Dynamic Pressure (varies with speed squared) & that is the dominant problem in energy efficiency here.
Steelcity said:
California, of course. Our utilities are smart. For example, they have to get rate increases approved by the Public Utilities Commission. So they found a way around it. Instead of raising rates they create new pricing plans. It's easy to get approval for new rate plans because who cares if they're more expensive, right? Nobody will choose them if they don't like them. Then, after approval, the utilities cancel the old rate plans. Now you're forced into a new rate plan with rates as much as 40% higher. The utility and politicians get to avoid all the public outrage at hearings for proposed rate increases because they never had any hearings for rate increases. When you complain to the PUC they'll tell you with a straight face that the utility didn't raise rates, just changed plans.
Same thing happened with home and auto insurance. They're prevented from raising rates arbitrarily, but not from switching your deductible or coverage without your knowledge. Instead of raising your rates they just change your deductible from $500 to $5,000 without notice. If you want to change it back to $500 you have to pay a new, higher rate.
voltamps said:
This is why I love trucks. I won't follow too close behind them for safety reasons (and rocks to the paint/windshield), but if there's a lane to the right of them I'll try and hang out in the vortex they generate just like ducks flying in formation. Seems to help a bit.
Alternative simplest method to calculate cost savings for an 8 year period to reach 80k miles:
Answer: $6,664
Take the "Annual Fuel Cost" off the Window Sticker (Monroney), and for the 2020 Leaf SV it is $600, thought that is based on 15,000 miles per year but I want 10,000 miles per year as more representative of an EV usage, so that is $600 x 0.67 = $400 per year.
Average car in this country drives 13,476 miles per year, but EVs don't take many long trips, so we'll make it 10k per year average for EVs.
Now peek at a 2020 Nissan Sentra window sticker (similar size car) and see that it has $733 per year per 10k miles.
($733 - $400) x 8 years = $2,664 total saved in gasoline costs alone for 8 yrs.
Assume there is a difference of $500 per year to maintain a Leaf vs. Sentra averaged over an 8 year period, about right from several studies I've seen. So that is $4,000 saved in maintenance for 8 years. (Leaf skips oil, tranny fluid, plugs, radiator coolant flush, less brake pads.)
$4,000 + $2,664 = $6,664 to reach 80k miles in 8 years.
Answer: $6,664
Take the "Annual Fuel Cost" off the Window Sticker (Monroney), and for the 2020 Leaf SV it is $600, thought that is based on 15,000 miles per year but I want 10,000 miles per year as more representative of an EV usage, so that is $600 x 0.67 = $400 per year.
Average car in this country drives 13,476 miles per year, but EVs don't take many long trips, so we'll make it 10k per year average for EVs.
Now peek at a 2020 Nissan Sentra window sticker (similar size car) and see that it has $733 per year per 10k miles.
($733 - $400) x 8 years = $2,664 total saved in gasoline costs alone for 8 yrs.
Assume there is a difference of $500 per year to maintain a Leaf vs. Sentra averaged over an 8 year period, about right from several studies I've seen. So that is $4,000 saved in maintenance for 8 years. (Leaf skips oil, tranny fluid, plugs, radiator coolant flush, less brake pads.)
$4,000 + $2,664 = $6,664 to reach 80k miles in 8 years.
voltamps said:
$600 of electricity at 13 cents will get me over 22,000 miles.
I am genuinely confused by why people are getting such drastically worse mileage per kWh than I am. According to LeafSpy and the info display on the Leaf, for the last 248 miles since I last reset I've average 4.8 miles per kWh. That's probably about 50% freeway driving at 65-70 mph with a 1,000-foot elevation drop and then back up from start to finish. The city driving is the same deal, usually involves at least a couple hundred feet of elevation drop and then climb back up on the return trip. I would think the uphill return would cut into my overall efficiency instead of improving it since I can only get about 2 miles per kWh uphill.
At that usage, driving 10,000 miles per year would cost me about $250.
I need lots of heat in Winter, and in Summer I need A/C. I also drive a little briskly at times.
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