Cost to Own an EV vs. Gasoline Vehicle

[DaveinOlyWA]

We drove VW diesels for years, averaging close to 50 MPG. At $3/ gallon, cost about $.06 per mile. Our Leaf averages about 4.2 m/kw, which costs us $.17, or about 2/3 the cost per mile for fuel alone so it saves $$. Add in oil changes every 5K miles and the Leaf is getting even better in comparison...... but the biggest factor is initial cost: we always bought older models and never paid more than $3500 even for the best TDI we ever owned, and they lasted us well into the 250K mile range even with the worst abuse imaginable. Not complaining, I love the Leafs, but do not expect to see the same number of miles per dollar that the old VWs gave us.

Ok, my Corolla cost "all in" was under 20 cents/ mile. My best LEAF the 2016 S30 which was in the mid 20's (the only LEAF to hit the twenties but only due to favorable insurance payout which happened during the "Nissan discount bubble")

But it was a $2100 beater that had other issues. My Sister is a service advisor and my BiL is a tech so repairs were done cheaper than normal. But it became obvious to me that it wasn't worth the savings to drive old cars when a new car was only a bit cheaper. So the problem becomes the quality of the car verses the cost and that is where the value diverges considerably. Even a well kept used gasser 5 years old for $10,000 costs simply keep spiraling

As the owner of a 2019 Plus I am always encouraged to see owners of much older Leafs stating that the only repairs they have made are wipers and tires- this sounds good! and I am also always looking for high mileage Leafs- do they hold up decently for 150K miles? (and corrolary; will the newer battery hold up better in northern US...) Only time will answer these questions.....

I drove Steve Marsh's 2011 with over 160 K on it. It was still in very good shape. The interior (despite the cream colored interior) held up very well. The paint is the only weak spot really. Its nose definitely showed the miles.

 

[user 24513]

160K miles is OK with me! I don't think any newer (i.e. post 2010 or so) cars are going to hold up as well as the sturdy funky vehicles of the last century- won't take the pounding and abuse that I have probably been doling out. So trying to go easier on the Leaf.....

 

[voltamps]

Interesting replies! Liking all the hard-core green people here.

I just looked at my 2020 Leaf SV maintenance booklet. I see they want frequent brake fluid changes. Related, Volkswagen added a requirement to do the 2-year brake fluid replacement after I bought a Tiguan from them in 2019, mailing out a supplement order separately. BMW has asked for 2-year replacments for years, so I guess it's not that weird to do for Leafs & Tiguans these days. Brake fluid can absorb H2O to some extent, and there is reason to believe the small passages in ABS systems can clog up if the fluid isn't perfect.

I had a Ford Focus Electric (really "Magna International" systems) for 5 years and never touched any of the fluids but watched them carefully. Maybe Ford should have insisted on brake fluid changes every 2 or 3 years too (?).

I'm starting to learn about how some apps can give you a visual reading of all the cell pack voltage values. Maybe Nissan Spy does this. I'll need to do some more research on it in the years ahead since it seems like a good annual maintenance report to file away to support HV battery diagnosis should something break inside. Of course, you'd think on board diagnostics would inform you if some cells or packs were bad.

Battery Management algorithms are indeed interesting. NREL had some projects on that, and of course a ton of secret proprietary stuff from Tesla & battery makers exists. Although nothing was ever done or examined on the Ford Focus Electric I had for 5 years recently, I'll try to be more diligent this time on the new Leaf by trying to get readings of whatever internal voltages I can get.

One other maintenance item Nissan lists is inspecting the CV joint (axle half-shaft) boots...... I've always sprayed them once a year with Armor-All or '303' protectant plasticizer on past vehicles owned (steering tie rod boots too). Now I'm thinking maybe the polymer rubber used in 2020 is better than 10 or 20 years ago and they don't need it. Maybe. Anything to avoid those things cracking, letting in dirt & water, killing the CV bearing joints though.

For sure there is just far less stuff to worry about for maintenance on an EV, much cheaper.

 

[PrairieLEAF]

I saw that brake fluid change suggestion too. It seems like Nissan's attempt to keep LEAF owners coming around the service department. With that annual battery check, though, I wonder if Nissan has denied any battery replacement claims due to missing battery checks? I don't know if this car has had any, but I don't anticipate having to use the warranty. If I put a trailer hitch on it, then I'll probably really be warranty-exempt!

The Ford Focus Electric was my first EV crush, and I was pretty jealous when my good friend got one. It sure seems like a nice car.

 

[voltamps]

I saw that brake fluid change suggestion too. It seems like Nissan's attempt to keep LEAF owners coming around the service department.

There have been reports of bad fluid interfering with ABS operation. That might be the cause of all the additional attention these days.

With that annual battery check, though, I wonder if Nissan has denied any battery replacement claims due to missing battery checks?

I saw a mention of annual battery checks somewhere. Still learning about what they might look at, and maybe they can print something out for us to document internal voltages or other measurements. Surely they look for dents on the underside. ..... My old Ford Focus Electric never got any inspections, and very little degradation or problems in 5 years & 34k miles, only an annoying over-amp blowout of a disconnect fuse from the HV battery to the big orange cables. Easily fixed under warranty, no repercussions, oddly enough!!

I always thought the on-board diagnostic software was "minding the store" so to speak, on the Ford (Magna International actually) and a dealership technician really had nothing to add. Just wait for a MIL dashboard code or warning to happen, was my philosophy on the Ford. That and watch fluid levels.

The Ford Focus Electric was my first EV crush, and I was pretty jealous when my good friend got one. It sure seems like a nice car.

Liked mine. Handling & steering was awesome, using a control blade rear suspension like the VW GTI has. Acceleration was very similar to a Leaf. Of course torquey off the line. Fun-2-Drive factor was high.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparison-test/a15112236/2014-chevy-spark-ev-vs-fiat-500e-ford-focus-electric-honda-fit-ev-nissan-leaf-smart-fortwo-ed-comparison-test/

 

[GerryAZ]

You can choose for yourself whether to have the annual battery test performed (first two are free), but I am not going to give Nissan an "out" on the battery warranty by missing the tests. The battery test printout the dealer gives you is not worth much (they do record and send a bunch of information to Nissan), but you can get a lot of information and have a lot of diagnostic capability by getting the Leaf Spy Pro app (Android or iOS) and a suitable OBDII port adapter to communicate with your phone/tablet. After seeing how bad the gearcase oil was in my 2015 when I finally changed it, I will be changing the oil in my 2019 at about 30,000 mile intervals. I will also be changing brake fluid every couple of years since the cost is minimal.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

You can choose for yourself whether to have the annual battery test performed (first two are free), but I am not going to give Nissan an "out" on the battery warranty by missing the tests. The battery test printout the dealer gives you is not worth much (they do record and send a bunch of information to Nissan), but you can get a lot of information and have a lot of diagnostic capability by getting the Leaf Spy Pro app (Android or iOS) and a suitable OBDII port adapter to communicate with your phone/tablet. After seeing how bad the gearcase oil was in my 2015 when I finally changed it, I will be changing the oil in my 2019 at about 30,000 mile intervals. I will also be changing brake fluid every couple of years since the cost is minimal.

My LEAF is connected to wi fi every night, all night. Wondering how much info "could be" being sent to Nissan with or without the battery check?

 

[91040]

Consumer Reports has a short article in the current (January 2021) issue comparing the costs of an EV to an ICE.

 

[GerryAZ]

You can choose for yourself whether to have the annual battery test performed (first two are free), but I am not going to give Nissan an "out" on the battery warranty by missing the tests. The battery test printout the dealer gives you is not worth much (they do record and send a bunch of information to Nissan), but you can get a lot of information and have a lot of diagnostic capability by getting the Leaf Spy Pro app (Android or iOS) and a suitable OBDII port adapter to communicate with your phone/tablet. After seeing how bad the gearcase oil was in my 2015 when I finally changed it, I will be changing the oil in my 2019 at about 30,000 mile intervals. I will also be changing brake fluid every couple of years since the cost is minimal.

My LEAF is connected to wi fi every night, all night. Wondering how much info "could be" being sent to Nissan with or without the battery check?

Who knows? I only connect mine to WiFi when I want to check for software and/or map updates. I have updated maps twice, but there have been no software updates since I got my 2019. The point is--Nissan gets a lot of data from the annual battery tests (and some through the telematics).

Back in 2013, I had Nissan's EV Customer Service call me a couple weeks after my second annual battery test to ask that I take my 2011 to the dealer for some additional tests so they could schedule a battery replacement. The car was down to 8 capacity bars, but still had adequate range for my needs so I planned to wait a while before asking for a battery replacement under the retroactive capacity loss warranty.

 

[countryleaf]

Who knows? I only connect mine to WiFi when I want to check for software and/or map updates. I have updated maps twice, but there have been no software updates since I got my 2019. The point is--Nissan gets a lot of data from the annual battery tests (and some through the telematics).

Hey there. Can you explain this a little more? My car connects to my home wi-fi all the time. I do not know what it does. How do you update maps, etc? I suppose it is done inside the car when connected to wi-fi(?). My car is a 2019 SL+. Thank you!!

 

[voltamps]

Great thread here. I'll look up that Consumer Reports article about costs that '91040' mentioned above.

You can choose for yourself whether to have the annual battery test performed (first two are free), but I am not going to give Nissan an "out" on the battery warranty by missing the tests.

Cool, that can be good. Annually is often enough for me. ... Still, like I said above, the on-board diagnostics software, really part of the battery management system, is running around all the time reading internal voltages during charging & as you drive, and should give you some kind of dashboard warning message if voltages or current flow is wrong somewhere inside. Without knowing all the details on what the car's computer reads & how thorough it is, I will assume Nissan Technicians can add value here. Certainly sounds like that is the case.

The battery test printout the dealer gives you is not worth much (they do record and send a bunch of information to Nissan), but you can get a lot of information and have a lot of diagnostic capability by getting the Leaf Spy Pro app (Android or iOS) and a suitable OBDII port adapter to communicate with your phone/tablet.

Gotta get that Spy app. I've used an OBDII 'elm327'-type adaptor on other vehicles in the past few years, & I recommend the BAFX Products OBDII Diagnostic Interface to bluetooth to a smart phone. It should work with the Spy app here. I've heard some elm327 devices sold are poor quality, so be careful about ones that are too cheap on Amazon.

After seeing how bad the gearcase oil was in my 2015 when I finally changed it, I will be changing the oil in my 2019 at about 30,000 mile intervals. I will also be changing brake fluid every couple of years since the cost is minimal.

I saw a Youtube video of a Leaf gear oil change, and both the drain & fill magnetic plugs was coated with iron fuzz. I would say maybe change it out (Nissan Matic-S ATF fluid) at 20,000 miles, then never again, since new gear teeth get polished down and generate fewer steel fuzz once broken-in. The 2 magnetic plugs seem to grab a lot of steel fuzz, meaning you could just leave the original fluid in there forever as Nissan says.

 

[GerryAZ]

Answers to some questions:

Regarding Updates:
To connect to Wi-Fi with 2019 SL Plus:
1. Press MENU button.
2. Touch SETTINGS.
3. Touch CONNECTIONS.
4. Touch Wi-Fi and follow typical procedures to connect to your router.

To check software version and/or update software on 2019 SL Plus:
1. Press MENU button.
2. Touch INFO.
3. Touch > (to move to second page of Info menu).
4. Touch SYSTEM INFORMATION.
5. Touch SOFTWARE VERSION (displays presently installed software version).
6. Touch SOFTWARE UPDATE.
7. Touch UPDATE METHOD.
8. Touch displayed icon to toggle between MANUAL and AUTO (I use manual because I don't trust auto and don't know what all it does.).
9. Touch START SOFTWARE UPDATE.
10. Touch CHECK FOR AN UPDATE.

To check for map updates and/or update maps on 2019 SL Plus:
1. Press MENU button
2. Touch INFO.
3. Touch > (to move to second page of info menu).
4. Touch SYSTEM INFORMATION.
5. Touch MAP UPDATE.
6. Touch UPDATE BY WI-FI. System then searches for updated maps. If updates are found:
7. Touch SELECT AREA.
8. Follow prompts to select areas and download updates. Time required depends upon internet connection and number of maps requested. I normally request everything except oceans. The estimated time for the updates last week was over 5 hours even with my fast internet connection, but the updates were complete in less time (probably a couple of hours--I just left car in READY mode, in PARK, parking brake SET, and doors locked. I then checked progress by looking in the window periodically.

Regarding gearcase oil:
The magnetic drain and fill plugs do collect a lot of fine steel particles (perfectly normal). I wish I had thought to send the old oil from my 2015 for analysis because it was very dark and seemed to have lost lubricating capability when rubbed between fingers in comparison to new Nissan Matic S fluid. I have a 4X4 that uses ATF in the transfer case and its manual recommends fluid changes every 30,000 miles which seems about right so I will be doing the same for my 2019 Leaf. Two quarts of Matic S fluid and two aluminum crush washers every 30,000 miles is a small expense to minimize wear of the gearcase.

 

[voltamps]

Another recent EV vs. Gas car cost study is at https://www.nrdc.org/stories/electric-vs-gas-it-cheaper-drive-ev
They cite an NREL study which looked at state-by-state breakdowns, and it looks like they basically agree with the other Consumer Reports & AAA studies which say several thousand dollars can be saved by driving an EV.

Certainly with current new Nissan Leafs going for about half their MSRP, that initial cost variable looks better!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Another recent EV vs. Gas car cost study is at https://www.nrdc.org/stories/electric-vs-gas-it-cheaper-drive-ev
They cite an NREL study which looked at state-by-state breakdowns, and it looks like they basically agree with the other Consumer Reports & AAA studies which say several thousand dollars can be saved by driving an EV.

Certainly with current new Nissan Leafs going for about half their MSRP, that initial cost variable looks better!

ok, guess will have to look at the study but WA not being at the top (along with the rest of the West it seems) is a red flag to me...or simply dated.

EDIT

Ok, I guess the graphic designer is color blind! :lol:

 

[SageBrush]

They cite an NREL study which looked at state-by-state breakdowns, and it looks like they basically agree with the other Consumer Reports & AAA studies which say several thousand dollars can be saved by driving an EV.

The map you showed is only fuel cost savings

NRDC tried to avoid the question of depreciation by using a 15 year car lifetime. I think it is a reasonable approach IF there is not significant battery degradation through the years.

 

[voltamps]

ok, guess will have to look at the study but WA not being at the top (along with the rest of the West it seems) is a red flag to me...or simply dated. EDIT Ok, I guess the graphic designer is color blind! :lol:

California has higher gasoline prices, so that would make the EV cheaper. Washington presumably has cheaper gas prices. Could be the reason for the difference.

The map you showed is only fuel cost savings....NRDC tried to avoid the question of depreciation by using a 15 year car lifetime. I think it is a reasonable approach IF there is not significant battery degradation through the years.

Yes, fuel (energy) cost only considered for that one map. Could be battery degradation is a thing of the past, at least the egregious examples we've seen. I'm optimistic about my 2020 Leaf.

We're now in the era of saving money driving an EV compared to a gas car. Only a matter of how much. Depreciation can ruin the equation in some cases. Just avoiding gas stations, oil changes, noise, time down for maintenance, etc. add up. For local police work, it is really hard to beat something like a Chevy Bolt or Leaf to save taxpayers money (video of a cop on mychevybolt.com discussing it convinced me). The cop in the video said the Bolt wasn't off-line for oil changes, no pollution during idling waiting for crime to happen, ....EV owners know !!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

ok, guess will have to look at the study but WA not being at the top (along with the rest of the West it seems) is a red flag to me...or simply dated. EDIT Ok, I guess the graphic designer is color blind! :lol:

California has higher gasoline prices, so that would make the EV cheaper. Washington presumably has cheaper gas prices. Could be the reason for the difference.

The map you showed is only fuel cost savings....NRDC tried to avoid the question of depreciation by using a 15 year car lifetime. I think it is a reasonable approach IF there is not significant battery degradation through the years.

Yes, fuel (energy) cost only considered for that one map. Could be battery degradation is a thing of the past, at least the egregious examples we've seen. I'm optimistic about my 2020 Leaf.

We're now in the era of saving money driving an EV compared to a gas car. Only a matter of how much. Depreciation can ruin the equation in some cases. Just avoiding gas stations, oil changes, noise, time down for maintenance, etc. add up. For local police work, it is really hard to beat something like a Chevy Bolt or Leaf to save taxpayers money (video of a cop on mychevybolt.com discussing it convinced me). The cop in the video said the Bolt wasn't off-line for oil changes, no pollution during idling waiting for crime to happen, ....EV owners know !!

The study ran several scenarios since a one and done study would only cover a fraction of EVers. WA ranked lower for several reasons but the cost of gas was not the major reason since we are pretty high here due to high (but not high enough) gas taxes. But the scenario's pushed our cost of electricity to 14 cents/kwh (which VERY few people here pay BTW) and CA's down to 18 cents/kwh (as many in the Bay Area would LOVE to pay) and its based on actual EV charging habits so CA's solar and higher employee charging pushes the cost down while WA's use of expensive DC charging pushes our costs up.

 

[SageBrush]

while WA's use of expensive DC charging pushes our costs up.

Why is that the case ?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

while WA's use of expensive DC charging pushes our costs up.

Why is that the case ?

My guess is travelers going thru the state. I know at least a half dozen EVers who never use DC charging but flock to the free AC units as much as possible. I only glanced thru the study so don't know how they gathered the numbers. Either way, they managed to jack our "average" kwh cost beyond any rate I know of

 

[salyavin]

Don't forget it is not just fuel (which you can save more on if you are able to install solar btw) but oil changes, mufflers, belts and other maintenence you don't need. On replacing batteries that is a big hit down the road lots of discussion on what level of degredation do you pull the trigger, a plus batter going down to a 2011 LEAF battery? If you go that far I am confident you can get 15 years out of the battery easily. We'll see how long the batteries keep good range, I'm expecting more than 40kw left in 10 years but that is only a guess.