Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[DaveinOlyWA]

its funny that WA was only state that did not set record highs for year, summer, spring, etc. but our weather is just as extreme as anyone elses.

last night had thunderstorms. in the past 8 days i have seen more lightning than my previous 24 years here combined. the weather has been WEIRD here too. last summer was great...for the 2½ weeks it was here. it was actually warmer last fall than it was last summer so if i count that, then we had about 6 weeks of "Summer" although we had to wait until the 3rd week of October to see it all!

 

[Stoaty]

I think the fact that there is a point person now means Nissan is finally starting to take notice and realizes they have to find out how big the problem is and then decide what to do about it. This is a positive first step (hopefully there will be more steps once data is gathered). If the problem grows as big as I think it will over the next few months, Nissan will have two choices: stonewall and see their brand go down the drain, or come up with an equitable solution. The warranty (or lack thereof) won't matter in the court of public opinion. The best thing we can do now is to try to get every single person with capacity bar loss to open a case with Nissan, and document it on the Wiki. After that, the ball is in Nissan's court.

 

[WetEV]

... or even AC in home garages.

The amount it would cost me to AC my garage would equal another car payment each month. However if Nissan wanted to pay for the additional AC costs to cool my garage each month, that would be another thought altogether.

Might be rather less than you expect, as the AC might only need to limit temperature in the garage to something like 35C or 100F or something fairly warm. Not standard AC to 72F.

 

[vrwl]

Might be rather less than you expect, as the AC might only need to limit temperature in the garage to something like 35C or 100F or something fairly warm. Not standard AC to 72F.

It WOULD be nice to know the magic number... the number of degrees of ambient temperature where it's no longer safe for the battery, whether it's outside in the blazing sun, or outside in the shade, or in a garage. The manual says 120 degrees for 24 hours, but we're not hitting that for a lot of people, yet still the battery capacity losses. We need to know the magic number.

 

[LEAFfan]

I think the fact that there is a point person now means Nissan is finally starting to take notice and realizes they have to find out how big the problem is and then decide what to do about it. This is a positive first step (hopefully there will be more steps once data is gathered). If the problem grows as big as I think it will over the next few months, Nissan will have two choices: stonewall and see their brand go down the drain, or come up with an equitable solution. The warranty (or lack thereof) won't matter in the court of public opinion. The best thing we can do now is to try to get every single person with capacity bar loss to open a case with Nissan, and document it on the Wiki. After that, the ball is in Nissan's court.

Since people have to take their car in for the yearly battery pack check, I believe Nissan already knew who had lost a bar and if not yet lost, they knew exactly the loss percentage. My Nissan tech told me that all of the ConsultII info is sent. to Nissan. So it's already known by Nissan how big this problem is. My guess is at least 100 cars in the Phoenix area have lost a bar and all 400 have lost at least 5%.

 

[DaveEV]

FYI: I got a PM from Anne on Nissan's social support team asking to remove Jessica's direct # - apparently she is getting bombarded with calls. I have asked her for a replacement contact. In the mean time, I've also asked anyone who's posted Jessica's # to remove it and if someone needs it to PM them for it...

 

[xtremeflyer]

Isn't it a good thing that she's bombarded with calls? Don't they want to know about everyone that is having this issue?

FYI: I got a PM from Anne on Nissan's social support team asking to remove Jessica's direct # - apparently she is getting bombarded with calls. I have asked her for a replacement contact. In the mean time, I've also asked anyone who's posted Jessica's # to remove it and if someone needs it to PM them for it...

 

[Stoaty]

Since people have to take their car in for the yearly battery pack check, I believe Nissan already knew who had lost a bar and if not yet lost, they knew exactly the loss percentage. My Nissan tech told me that all of the ConsultII info is sent. to Nissan. So it's already known by Nissan how big this problem is.

Yes, but by having a point person they will find out how big a public relations problem they have. It is those multiple, loud, long (and public) complaints that might push Nissan to do something.

 

[LEAFfan]

Isn't it a good thing that she's bombarded with calls? Don't they want to know about everyone that is having this issue?

FYI: I got a PM from Anne on Nissan's social support team asking to remove Jessica's direct # - apparently she is getting bombarded with calls. I have asked her for a replacement contact. In the mean time, I've also asked anyone who's posted Jessica's # to remove it and if someone needs it to PM them for it...

+1! As long as they are calling her about their capacity loss, I don't see a problem. It will prove that there are many cars with this problem, not just five.

 

[edatoakrun]

Might be rather less than you expect, as the AC might only need to limit temperature in the garage to something like 35C or 100F or something fairly warm. Not standard AC to 72F.

It WOULD be nice to know the magic number... the number of degrees of ambient temperature where it's no longer safe for the battery, whether it's outside in the blazing sun, or outside in the shade, or in a garage. The manual says 120 degrees for 24 hours, but we're not hitting that for a lot of people, yet still the battery capacity losses. We need to know the magic number.

There probably is no "magic number".

There curve of additional deterioration due to battery heat is probably nonlinear, with much higher increased deterioration with a degree of temperature increase, from very high ambient temperatures. this may be why a "minor" increase of summer temperatures in the US Southwest, of ~5 F over historic norms, may have been a major factor in the LEAF lost capacity bar "epidemic" there.

The problem with any active BTM system, whether of only the battery itself, or the entire car, is that it is invariably required to draw energy during summer peak hours, when electricity is far more expensive.

With active cooling, you either need to cycle the battery while parked during mid-day, or provide a plug to use expensive peak grid power, during the daily Summer temperature peak. These costs are in addition to the significant production and maintenance costs of the active cooling system itself.

Nissan apparently believed passive management would be the better option, providing lower costs and more efficient operation overall. Whether Nissan was right or wrong, declining battery prices, battery designs with better high-heat resistance, and increasing grid peak power costs (all likely, IMO) should tend to make the passive option more cost-competitive in the future.

I also want to point out, again , that by extrapolating current of US Southwest temperature trends over the last two years, the same way many have extrapolated Battery bar disappearance on this thread, could also lead to the conclusion that much of this region would be largely uninhabitable by humans during them "expected" lifespan of a 2012 LEAF battery pack.

If I lived in Phoenix, I might be much more worried about my home's future resale value, than my LEAF's...

 

[aqn]

FYI: I got a PM from Anne on Nissan's social support team asking to remove Jessica's direct # - apparently she is getting bombarded with calls. I have asked her for a replacement contact. In the mean time, I've also asked anyone who's posted Jessica's # to remove it and if someone needs it to PM them for it...

C'mon now, aren't there like, only five cases of these degraded battery capacity issue? Surely they can handle the few cases without much problem?

Seriously though, I edited my post(s) and redacted the contact information. I see it has been also redacted in the wiki. (Though, anybody can look at the page's history and find that information. Ooops, did I say that out loud? Hopefully this will be lost among this topic's 160+ pages of posts...) I'm all for resolving this in the most amicable manner possible, as I'm sure we all want "the EV" to do well.

Thing is, unless and until Nissan provides an official channel for this [so far quite small but quite vocal and quite irate] group of LEAF owners to find redress for the issue, redacting the contact info is like taking aspirin for a brain tumor: it'll relieve the pressure but the problem is not gonna go away.

 

[QueenBee]

Here is my 2012 LEAF's ScanGauge reading

Do you have a rare/special/testing ScanGauge from them or is there a way to upgrade/hack a ScanGauge to get this data?

 

[Herm]

... or even AC in home garages.

The amount it would cost me to AC my garage would equal another car payment each month. However if Nissan wanted to pay for the additional AC costs to cool my garage each month, that would be another thought altogether.

you dont need to AC the whole garage... just get an insulated bag for the Leaf and AC that, minimal cost but a bit more work with the bag/cover.

 

[LEAFer]

you dont need to AC the whole garage... just get an insulated bag for the Leaf and AC that, minimal cost but a bit more work with the bag/cover.

"Our LEAF ... the bubble-car !" :roll:

 

[LEAFfan]

Here is my 2012 LEAF's ScanGauge reading

Do you have a rare/special/testing ScanGauge from them or is there a way to upgrade/hack a ScanGauge to get this data?

The ICE SGII is made in AZ. I went there because I have the ICE one and asked if they could make one for my LEAF, but they said they needed a LEAF to read the buss so I asked Gonewild to offer his LEAF (didn't have mine yet) and they would give us each a prototype. It only reads the raw number, then converts it to % on the display. They are still planning on adding more features, but had to stop working on it because a new client needed their help and will resume work on it when finished with their new client. Ingineer will most likely have his ready much sooner.

 

[QueenBee]

Here is my 2012 LEAF's ScanGauge reading

Do you have a rare/special/testing ScanGauge from them or is there a way to upgrade/hack a ScanGauge to get this data?

The ICE SGII is made in AZ. I went there because I have the ICE one and asked if they could make one for my LEAF, but they said they needed a LEAF to read the buss so I asked Gonewild to offer his LEAF (didn't have mine yet) and they would give us each a prototype. It only reads the raw number, then converts it to % on the display. They are still planning on adding more features, but had to stop working on it because a new client needed their help and will resume work on it when finished with their new client. Ingineer will most likely have his ready much sooner.

That's too bad. Would be neat if you could load special firmware on the existing units and hack the cable if it wasn't reading the right buss. Nice and cheap and I'm sure like you and I a lot of people already have them.

 

[FairwoodRed]

So I got a JD Power survey recently and I called Nissan to request a statement from Nissan before I fill it out. I really want Nissan to reassure us with believable statements that all will be better. Understandably, they could not predict how soon any statements would be made by Nissan. I did come away with the feeling that Phoenix finally has Nissan’s attention and that Nissan really wants everyone affected to call into 877-NOGASEV.

Two interesting points: I was told that Nissan will be doing additional extensive cell by cell testing starting next week. It was unclear if that was going to be cells from a new pack, or from someone’s affected pack. And here’s the most interesting/most unconfirmed part: Nissan suggested that it might be from one of the cars that had lost FOUR bars! :shock:

Has anyone one else heard of a four bar loss? I’m tempted to mark that down as a mistake, but there is always a chance that it could be true.

Either way, I am hopeful that with Nissan’s expertise finally looking into this capacity loss, the contributing factors will be officially determined and better pack care guidance given to us.

 

[Stoaty]

Two interesting points: I was told that Nissan will be doing additional extensive cell by cell testing starting next week. It was unclear if that was going to be cells from a new pack, or from someone’s affected pack. And here’s the most interesting/most unconfirmed part: Nissan suggested that it might be from one of the cars that had lost FOUR bars! :shock:

That's the first I have heard of their semi-official source giving an answer other than "it's normal". Sounds like they have at least changed the scripts for the workers at the call center. An encouraging sign, I would say.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Two interesting points: I was told that Nissan will be doing additional extensive cell by cell testing starting next week. It was unclear if that was going to be cells from a new pack, or from someone’s affected pack. And here’s the most interesting/most unconfirmed part: Nissan suggested that it might be from one of the cars that had lost FOUR bars! :shock:

That's the first I have heard of their semi-official source giving an answer other than "it's normal". Sounds like they have at least changed the scripts for the workers at the call center. An encouraging sign, I would say.

hard to evaluate with inexact wording, but fully expected them to come up with this type of response. i believe Nissan already has this ability and has been collecting the data from day one using Carwings

but this release puts the dogs to rest for now and should be good for at least a week or two.

in two weeks after being pushed they will report that they have "identified areas of concern and are in the process of taking a closer look" which should give them a few more weeks

 

[DaveEV]

FYI: I got a PM from Anne on Nissan's social support team asking to remove Jessica's direct # - apparently she is getting bombarded with calls. I have asked her for a replacement contact. In the mean time, I've also asked anyone who's posted Jessica's # to remove it and if someone needs it to PM them for it...

Misunderstanding on my part. The number that was posted is the main 877-NO-GAS-EV Nissan LEAF help-line. Nissan wants everyone with an issue to call that number - just not to call Jessica's direct extension as she is just one agent out of many who is taking these calls. So if you feel that you have lost capacity prematurely, make sure you call Nissan and open a case.