Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[edatoakrun]

I'd suggest you look at Carwings reports of kWh consumed, for the day of this or any future range tests.

You jest sir?

My Carwings efficiency for June is 6.1 m/kWh. Reality is closer to 4.1

Instead of complaining about it to me, why don't you get it fixed?

11 months of consistent and accurate (after correcting 2.5% for CW odometer error) reporting, of every trip, of every day, and every month (as reported, posted below) since I had the update done at the beginning of August '11.

Month and Year Energy Economy
Jul/2011 5.3 miles/kWh (incorrect, pre-update)
Aug/2011 4.2 miles/kWh
Sep/2011 4.5 miles/kWh
Oct/2011 4.2 miles/kWh
Nov/2011 4.2 miles/kWh
Dec/2011 4.0 miles/kWh
Jan/2012 4.2 miles/kWh
Feb/2012 4.4 miles/kWh
Mar/2012 4.3 miles/kWh
Apr/2012 4.5 miles/kWh
May/2012 5.1 miles/kWh
Jun/2012 5.0 miles/kWh

 

[JPWhite]

Instead of complaining about it to me, why don't you get it fixed?

Local Nissan dealer doesn't know how. I gave them the details from a thread at this forum in December last year. Their tech said I already was up to date. I can't fix it myself so that's the way it is.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

With 20,000 cars out there now think of all the interesting data Nissan must be collecting on this problem, for example:

Are some modules losing capacity faster than others, like the ones closest to the pavement?
Is the problem only in the hot weather states?
Does the color of car matter?

 

[Volusiano]

Adding in bturner's 1st capacity bar loss

1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012)
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012)
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix
20. bturner - May 12, 2012, 13.6K/?, Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix

 

[GRA]

You've listed bturner twice, at #2 and #20.

 

[cwerdna]

Removed duplicate bturner (was #20). Added note to #17.

1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012)
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012)
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas (no longer has Leaf)
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

How many of the cars on that list are white?

 

[LEAFfan]

How many of the cars on that list are white?

There are many GP/Cream cars as well as other colors that have lost at least one bar. I guarantee you that color is not a factor for their loss of capacity. It's also nothing to do with how it's driven, how it's charged, how it's kept here, etc. There are many drivers here that have followed all the right things (babied it) and yet they still lost a bar and the 2nd one is just around the corner. So far, the common denominator is prolonged heat due to our almost yearly high temps.

 

[smkettner]

Has everyone in AZ lost a bar? I would be more curious what the situation is for those that still have 12 bars and why they are surviving the heat. Need to find out what the good ones are doing different.

Maybe we need a thread for over 18 months in AZ with all bars.

 

[scottf200]

Would seem like in the no loss list they should put where they are from. Northern CA or other mid climates is not really the concerning factor it seems.

Wiki list: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/in...ar.28s.29_reported_on_mynissanleaf.com_forums

Removed duplicate bturner (was #20). Added note to #17.

1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012)
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012)
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas (no longer has Leaf)
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix

 

[cwerdna]

Added notes about shrink's and Skywagon's cases.

1. Azdre - Reported bar lost mid April to early May, 2012. 17K miles/14 months ownership. Phoenix
2. bturner - May 12, 2012. 13.6K/12 months. Phoenix
3. turbo2ltr - May 18, 2012. 13K/15 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 6/29/2012)
4. TickTock - May 20, 2012. 14K/12 months Phoenix
5. Volusiano - May 20, 2012. 16.5K/12 months. Phoenix
6. Mark13 - May 22, 2012. 15.7K/12 months. Phoenix (2nd bar loss reported 7/1/2012)
7. Leafkabob - May 26, 2012. 9.5K/12 months. Phoenix
8. Cyellen - June 7, 2012. 10.2K/ 14 months. Phoenix
9. RickS - June 10, 2012. 11.3K/13 months. Phoenix
10. Pipcecil - June 17, 2012. 20.2K/12 months. Dallas, Texas
11. Phxsmiley - June 17, 2012. 13.7K/10 months. Phoenix
12. AZknauer - June 17, 2012. 9.2K/13.5 months. Phoenix
13. Myleaf - June 19, 2012. 13.3K/14 months. Phoenix
14. johndoe74 - June 5, 2012. 13.5K/ 9 months. Phoenix
15. Matt Ferris - June 20, 2012. 15K/ 12 months. Dallas, Texas
16. Shrink - June 21, 2012. 10.2K/ 10.5 months. Phoenix (sold that Leaf, replaced w/leased '12 Leaf)
17. ravi100 - June 24, 2012. 13.1K/ 13.5 months. Southlake, Texas (no longer has Leaf)
18. ev4me - approx. June 1, 2012. 7K/ 15 mos. Phoenix (Dropped 2 bars)
19. jspearman - June 28, 2012, ?/10.5 months. Phoenix

Not reported by owner, but by others:
1. Opossum has reported of two cars in Phoenix that have lost 2 bars.
2. Leafkabob reported a street encounter with a Leaf owner who stated he lost a bar after about a year.
3. Skywagon approx. May, 2012. Phoenix (supposedly no longer has Leaf)

It will be very interesting to see what this list looks like at the end of this summer and the next one...

 

[bturner]

<snip> Actual distance traveled was 58 miles, and I average about 4.5 mi/kw indicated on the Leafs center display. Sigh, I think my second bar will be coming soon..</snip>

<quote> Do I understand correctly, that you made this range test from a 100% charge?
58 miles at 4.5 m/kWh is under 13 kWh. That doesn't seem to be consistent with the 19.5 kWh blink report, unless the charge was only ~66% efficient.
I'd suggest you look at Carwings reports of kWh consumed, for the day of this or any future range tests.</quote>

Sorry, that was confusing (and my fault for not being more concise). The 58 miles was from an 80% charge. As others have pointed out, Carwings is not so accurate, so I don't rely on that data. Since you asked, Carwings reports that I used 9.6 kW of electricity and achieved 6 mi/kWh during that run from an 80% charge.

The thing that bothers me the most is that Nissan is not communicating on this issue, and we are forced to try and get whatever data we can, by whatever means are available to try and diagnosis the problem ourselves. Nissan undoubtedly has the tools to get to the bottom of the issue, if they haven't already, but is not communicating to the affected owners.

 

[edatoakrun]

"bturner"

Sorry, that was confusing (and my fault for not being more concise). The 58 miles was from an 80% charge. As others have pointed out, Carwings is not so accurate, so I don't rely on that data. Since you asked, Carwings reports that I used 9.6 kW of electricity and achieved 6 mi/kWh during that run from an 80% charge...

As I posted, earlier today on this thread, I think you will find Carwings to be the most accurate source of kWh use now available, if yours is working correctly.

11 months of consistent and accurate (after correcting 2.5% for CW odometer error) reporting, of every trip, of every day, and every month (as reported, posted below) since I had the update done at the beginning of August '11.

Month and Year Energy Economy
Jul/2011 5.3 miles/kWh (incorrect, pre-update)
Aug/2011 4.2 miles/kWh
Sep/2011 4.5 miles/kWh
Oct/2011 4.2 miles/kWh
Nov/2011 4.2 miles/kWh
Dec/2011 4.0 miles/kWh
Jan/2012 4.2 miles/kWh
Feb/2012 4.4 miles/kWh
Mar/2012 4.3 miles/kWh
Apr/2012 4.5 miles/kWh
May/2012 5.1 miles/kWh
Jun/2012 5.0 miles/kWh

I don't know how to respond to those who say their dealers can't or won't correct their CW function. This is a feature of your LEAF, you have paid for, and I'd suggest you pursue the matter. This update worked for me, but apparently some have had a hard time getting their dealers to do it. There have been many more recent threads with more details, since:

My carwings energy numbers - CORRECT post NTB11-041 update

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5423&hilit=carwings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I did call The LEAF regarding my ~2.5% odometer discrepancy many months ago, and was told that there was no correction available at that time. Since this amount of error seems close to what can be expected due to variations in tire circumference, from the same size tires, due to manufacturing variations and tire wear, I doubt a "perfect" fix could be expected anyway.

 

[RegGuheert]

I don't know how to respond to those who say their dealers can't or won't correct their CW function. This is a feature of your LEAF, you have paid for, and I'd suggest you pursue the matter. This update worked for me, but apparently some have had a hard time getting their dealers to do it. There have been many more recent threads with more details, since:

My carwings energy numbers - CORRECT post NTB11-041 update

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=5423&hilit=carwings" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That fix was for a connections problem and only applied to LEAFs built before June 1, 2011. Those of us with cars built soon afterwords have firmware older than what is installed under that technical bulletin, but Nissan will not make it available to us.

 

[JPWhite]

That fix was for a connections problem and only applied to LEAFs built before June 1, 2011. Those of us with cars built soon afterwords have firmware older than what is installed under that technical bulletin, but Nissan will not make it available to us.

Yep. Late Jul 2011 delivery makes me one of those 'fortunate' customers.

 

[opossum]

Hey everyone.

I (we) wanted to clear up a few vague items in the “who has lost a bar” list and give everyone a bit of recent Phoenix capacity loss information...

“Azdre” (the originator of this massive thread) and I own the same Phoenix Leaf, VIN #0500. We lost our second bar several weeks ago and appear to be on the cusp of losing the third. So on the current list, our car is one of the two I had reported earlier had lost two bars in Phoenix (notes section).

Sorry for being so vague earlier. Things were happening quickly. Knowing that Nissan monitors this forum, we were walking a fine line between declaring too much on a public forum and still sharing our experience with everyone. We are very concerned about this dramatic and non-linear (non-gradual!) capacity loss, and wanted to be sure our bargaining position with Nissan was not compromised by anything we said on this forum.

Many days have since passed, the trend is quite clear, and it is fairly obvious to everyone now (hopefully) that this capacity loss is not due to poor owner treatment. So here I (we) are to give everyone a bit more information.

We dropped into the Phoenix Electric Auto Association monthly meeting Saturday morning and several of us measured Leaf capacity with the ScanGauge our Phx EAA President has been using to test cars around our toasty valley.

There were several cars with very significant capacity loss. I’m sure some of the Leaf owners are on this forum and some are not, so I’ll just share our latest numbers, as well as those of the guy locally who seems to be on the leading edge of the capacity loss.

Azdre / opossum (VIN 0500)
3/21/11, 0 miles.
4/26/12, 16,624 miles, lost 1st Bar.
6/7/2012, Range Test, 5mi/kWh, 100% to LBW: 58.6 miles (NTB: 75-85 miles expected)
6/9/12, 18,822 miles, 76.1% ScanGauge w/ 100% charge.
6/14/12, ~19,000 miles, lost 2nd Bar.
6/30/12, ~19,850 miles, 71.8% ScanGauge w/ 100% charge.

The “other” guy (will leave it to him to share his name/VIN if he chooses)
Purchased in June 2011
2 bars gone
6/30/12. 25,333 miles. 69.3% ScanGauge w/ 100% charge.

P.S. For those debating the number of cars who are experiencing this capacity loss, let me share with you some real world “data” from Phoenix. My wife and I know roughly a dozen people who have owned Leafs for a year or so now. We know those people as family, friends and acquaintances, not because they lost capacity. Having said that, of the ones we have asked recently, every single one of them has lost one or two bars. If we reached out to the few we haven’t spoken to in a while, I’m sure the answer would be the same. I bumped into another Leaf owner at a charger Sunday. He has also had his car for roughly a year and has lost 2 bars. It seems to me that for those who have had a Leaf here for 10 months or more and driven it a respectable amount, the chance of losing one or more bars by the end of this month are near 100%. There’s a percentage for ya!

 

[KJD]

opossum could you please post the GID number readings for your car at 100% charge.

 

[shrink]

And just for reference, the Scan Guage read 95.3% on my 2012 LEAF with a 100% charge after 4 days of ownership and about 100 miles on Sat, 6/30/2012.

Whatever the Scan Gauge is exactly reading, the percentages it reads at 100% charge are significantly lower on 10-16 month old LEAFs in Phoenix. The loss of capacity bars also seems to mirror these readings.

And to restate the obvious, losses this fast do not appear to be occurring in similarly aged LEAF's in cooler climates.

Nissan's inaction and insistence on calling this "normal" is maddening. Owners appear to be seeing the expected 5-year capacity in a little over a year and there doesn't seem to be a good sense of when this loss will slow or flatten out.

 

[opossum]

Sorry, KJD, but I don't recall what the ScanGauge math is, but I'm sure someone else can translate those percentages into GIDs. I have not been focusing on the details any longer, now that it's blatantly obvious that nearly everyone out here is experiencing this issue.

 

[KJD]

Sorry, KJD, but I don't recall what the ScanGauge math is, but I'm sure someone else can translate those percentages into GIDs. I have not been focusing on the details any longer, now that it's blatantly obvious that nearly everyone out here is experiencing this issue.

Geeks like details as in
The devil is in the details
:twisted: