Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

[EricBayArea]

We've been following the reports from several LEAF Owners who are reporting battery capacity loss after a year (+/- a few months). As with all Li-ion batteries, capacity loss is inevitable. In general, all batteries exhibit a higher loss of capacity early in life, but then the curve flattens over time. If a LEAF is treated as outlined in the Owner’s Manual, you can expect 80 percent of the battery capacity after 5 years. Variables including driving conditions and habits could make that number higher or lower. If any of our Owners are concerned with their LEAFs battery capacity, we encourage them to visit their Nissan dealer and/or contact our EV Support Team at 1.877.NO GAS EV. - Jonathan C., Nissan Social

from Nissan Leaf Facebook

PC BS

 

[RegGuheert]

If a LEAF is treated as outlined in the Owner’s Manual, you can expect 80 percent of the battery capacity after 5 years.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Unbelievable.

BTW, Nissan, we can read the manuals. They also say the capacity meter indicates permanent loss of capacity and that it is "immune" to temperature. So how do you explain 21.25% capacity loss in 15 months? That is over 4X the rate you keep repeating as the "normal" value.

 

[JPWhite]

We've been following the reports from several LEAF Owners who are reporting battery capacity loss after a year (+/- a few months). As with all Li-ion batteries, capacity loss is inevitable. In general, all batteries exhibit a higher loss of capacity early in life, but then the curve flattens over time. If a LEAF is treated as outlined in the Owner’s Manual, you can expect 80 percent of the battery capacity after 5 years. Variables including driving conditions and habits could make that number higher or lower. If any of our Owners are concerned with their LEAFs battery capacity, we encourage them to visit their Nissan dealer and/or contact our EV Support Team at 1.877.NO GAS EV. - Jonathan C., Nissan Social

from Nissan Leaf Facebook

PC BS

I like the 'expect' bit.

expect does *not* equal 'we will take of you if it doesn't and you operated the vehicle as outlined in the owners manual'.

However they have officially set expectations.

I purchased my LEAF. 105 record high in Nashville yesterday, predicted to be 1-2 degrees higher today. Garage didn't go below 87 degrees last night. I can almost 'hear' the battery degrading

I expect I will be trading my LEAF once more EV choices are available and I can shop around. That's my expectation.

 

[JPWhite]

If a LEAF is treated as outlined in the Owner’s Manual, you can expect 80 percent of the battery capacity after 5 years.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Unbelievable.

BTW, Nissan, we can read the manuals. They also say the capacity meter indicates permanent loss of capacity and that it is "immune" to temperature. So how do you explain 21.25% capacity loss in 15 months? That is over 4X the rate you keep repeating as the "normal" value.

Maybe if it falls fast enough it will bounce

 

[davewill]

We've been following the reports from several LEAF Owners who are reporting battery capacity loss after a year (+/- a few months). As with all Li-ion batteries, capacity loss is inevitable. In general, all batteries exhibit a higher loss of capacity early in life, but then the curve flattens over time. If a LEAF is treated as outlined in the Owner’s Manual, you can expect 80 percent of the battery capacity after 5 years. Variables including driving conditions and habits could make that number higher or lower. If any of our Owners are concerned with their LEAFs battery capacity, we encourage them to visit their Nissan dealer and/or contact our EV Support Team at 1.877.NO GAS EV. - Jonathan C., Nissan Social

from Nissan Leaf Facebook

PC BS

Actually, I think this is the first "official" suggestion that the degradation should taper off.

 

[DesertDenizen]

Nissan posted that response in reply to a post I made on their youtube post of a tv interview on EVs. I don't think he was too happy with that, he responded to later posts before he acknowledged me. Later a Phoenix Leafer with 11 bars chimed in; not the PR exercise they were hoping for I suspect.

 

[smkettner]

Actually, I think this is the first "official" suggestion that the degradation should taper off.

I fully suspect that time and usage related degradation may taper off. Degradation from excess heat not so much.
JMHO, time will tell.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Degradation from excess heat not so much.
JMHO, time will tell.

That is cold, I was expecting "do not worry all will be just fine".

 

[Herm]

Nissan posted that response in reply to a post I made on their youtube post of a tv interview on EVs. I don't think he was too happy with that, he responded to later posts before he acknowledged me. Later a Phoenix Leafer with 11 bars chimed in; not the PR exercise they were hoping for I suspect.

You have a link to that interview?

 

[DesertDenizen]

http://www.facebook.com/nissanleaf

Just scroll down to the youtube video.

 

[scottf200]

http://www.facebook.com/nissanleaf Just scroll down to the youtube video.

You boys were rattling some cages there. I bet there were some email flying after that little "thread".

 

[surfingslovak]

You have a link to that interview?

Herm, here is the link you asked for, and the video with Brendan Jones is below.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEl2QrmvFSk[/youtube]

 

[turbo2ltr]

As a "two bar"-er, I'm still on the fence about this. Full disclosure, I work in the this industry so I understand pretty well what it takes to do what nissan did. On one side you have people that did not get what Nissan told them they would get. On the other side you have a company that went through great expense to bring us the first mass produced EV that we wanted (at least in theory).

So while part of me wants to stand up out of anger and yell "Hey nissan, I feel cheated, what are you going to do to make this right"....the other part of me wants to say "Hey nissan, thanks for a pretty damn good first try. Sure it wasn't quite perfect, but I recognize it took some pretty big cojones and a boatload of money to actually get the first mass produced EV to market. Thanks for being the trailblazer so others may follow.

I am a habitual early adopter. Maybe not all leaf owners are used to being early adopters, but there are some expectations, or lackthereof, that come with being one that not all leaf owners might have realized. The leaf is a REVOLUTION in transportation. It may take a couple years to iron the bugs out. Even with ICE cars, it's common knowledge you NEVER buy the first year after a redesign...and they've been making ICE cars for how long now? Sure we can make a big public stink about losing battery capacity, but what does that do to EVs as a whole. We are just giving fuel to the naysayers. We want to see more EVs, not less. We don't want to make Nissan regret bringing us the leaf.

I will say that as someone that leased, I can see buyers not sharing my sentiment at all. I'd probably wouldn't be on the fence if I bought.

 

[shrink]

Sure we can make a big public stink about losing battery capacity, but what does that do to EVs as a whole. We are just giving fuel to the naysayers. We want to see more EVs, not less. We don't want to make Nissan regret bringing us the leaf.

I will say that as someone that leased, I can see buyers not sharing my sentiment at all. I'd probably wouldn't be on the fence if I bought.

I can appreciate your thoughts on the matter, but I can't say I fully understand the rationale for not speaking up. It seems akin to expressing concerns about current affairs, but deciding not to vote.

Wouldn't expressing your concerns about the battery capacity loss, in the long term, help Nissan address the issue and improve the product?

There is an opportunity for them to bolster EV confidence by acknowledging the issue, reassuring early adopters, and developing a better product; thereby giving less fuel to the naysayers.

Alienating early adopters and supporters is far more detrimental.

I encourage you, and other affected owners, to speak up for your fellow EV drivers, rather than defend one corporation. More choices are on the horizon and I think we all not only want more EV's, but we also we want better ones - from whatever company that can make them.

Personally, I essentially converted my purchase to a lease, but I still have a lot of concern for those who bought. I think they deserve your support.

 

[JPWhite]

http://www.facebook.com/nissanleaf

Just scroll down to the youtube video.

Interesting comments on that page. I especially liked one poster who indicated regardless of what Nissan's legal position is after having owners sign an acknowledgement that battery degradation will happen, he goes on to say the court of public opinion can be brutal.

I think the poster sums up the situation perfectly. It doesn't matter what anyone signed or how Nissan attempts to set or reset expectations. If consumers feel they've been misled or under-served by Nissan, the fallout of public opinion will ultimately harm Nissan's EV platform, which BTW goes well beyond the LEAF.

 

[DesertDenizen]

As a "two bar"-er, I'm still on the fence about this. Full disclosure, I work in the this industry so I understand pretty well what it takes to do what nissan did. On one side you have people that did not get what Nissan told them they would get. On the other side you have a company that went through great expense to bring us the first mass produced EV that we wanted (at least in theory).

So while part of me wants to stand up out of anger and yell "Hey nissan, I feel cheated, what are you going to do to make this right"....the other part of me wants to say "Hey nissan, thanks for a pretty damn good first try. Sure it wasn't quite perfect, but I recognize it took some pretty big cojones and a boatload of money to actually get the first mass produced EV to market. Thanks for being the trailblazer so others may follow.

I am a habitual early adopter. Maybe not all leaf owners are used to being early adopters, but there are some expectations, or lackthereof, that come with being one that not all leaf owners might have realized. The leaf is a REVOLUTION in transportation. It may take a couple years to iron the bugs out. Even with ICE cars, it's common knowledge you NEVER buy the first year after a redesign...and they've been making ICE cars for how long now? Sure we can make a big public stink about losing battery capacity, but what does that do to EVs as a whole. We are just giving fuel to the naysayers. We want to see more EVs, not less. We don't want to make Nissan regret bringing us the leaf.

I will say that as someone that leased, I can see buyers not sharing my sentiment at all. I'd probably wouldn't be on the fence if I bought.

I get this perspective; note that in one of my comments under the video (I am Dennis Nakashian) I state that I love my Leaf. But I agree with the others who state that Nissan should hear our concerns.

 

[KJD]

Excellent post turbo, I share your desire to see more EV's in the world and not less. It would appear that the heat in AZ has had a bad effect on the battery pack. Maybe you answered this before, but what are your charging habits like ?

The reason I am asking this question is that I own my car outright and I want to make the pack last as long as possible. Any advice?

KJD

As a "two bar"-er, I'm still on the fence about this. Full disclosure, I work in the this industry so I understand pretty well what it takes to do what nissan did. On one side you have people that did not get what Nissan told them they would get. On the other side you have a company that went through great expense to bring us the first mass produced EV that we wanted (at least in theory).

So while part of me wants to stand up out of anger and yell "Hey nissan, I feel cheated, what are you going to do to make this right"....the other part of me wants to say "Hey nissan, thanks for a pretty damn good first try. Sure it wasn't quite perfect, but I recognize it took some pretty big cojones and a boatload of money to actually get the first mass produced EV to market. Thanks for being the trailblazer so others may follow.

I am a habitual early adopter. Maybe not all leaf owners are used to being early adopters, but there are some expectations, or lackthereof, that come with being one that not all leaf owners might have realized. The leaf is a REVOLUTION in transportation. It may take a couple years to iron the bugs out. Even with ICE cars, it's common knowledge you NEVER buy the first year after a redesign...and they've been making ICE cars for how long now? Sure we can make a big public stink about losing battery capacity, but what does that do to EVs as a whole. We are just giving fuel to the naysayers. We want to see more EVs, not less. We don't want to make Nissan regret bringing us the leaf.

I will say that as someone that leased, I can see buyers not sharing my sentiment at all. I'd probably wouldn't be on the fence if I bought.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

To be EV leader Nissan needs to gain trust and confidence of regular folks and we can and wants to help. Nissan needs to show that Leaf is superior to other available in this category. Many Leaf owners now buying Volt, which few months ago was considered dirty and inferior but not anymore. Part of that is probably due to lack of communication and assurance that Nissan is with as for good and bad. I want to be proud of my Leaf and recommend to other but Nissan help is very much needed at this time. Communication is a key and this seems to be very limited

 

[turbo2ltr]

Please note, I never said anything about keeping our concerns to ourselves. I was commenting on the *public* complaining. For certain Nissan needs to know that we aren't happy with the battery performance. I understand that public outcry is the fastest way to get a corporation to take action when it comes to things like this, but I'm just not sure if airing the dirty laundry in public is in the best interests of EVs as a whole. Again, merely food for thought, I'm kinda on the fence about the whole thing.

 

[Stanton]

So while part of me wants to stand up out of anger and yell "Hey nissan, I feel cheated, what are you going to do to make this right"....the other part of me wants to say "Hey nissan, thanks for a pretty damn good first try. Sure it wasn't quite perfect, but I recognize it took some pretty big cojones and a boatload of money to actually get the first mass produced EV to market. Thanks for being the trailblazer so others may follow.

+1: couldn't have said it better myself. While I have NOT (yet) lost any bars, I DID buy, and know the Texas heat (even with my typical 80% charge routine) will eventually have a negative impact on my battery capacity. Having said that, I too am a chronic 'early adopter' that has waited nearly 20 years for someone like Nissan to have the balls to build a practical, affordable EV I can buy. I trust that whatever cost/benefit analysis they performed which lead to the temperature management/battery performance choices made was sound: there's just too many GOOD things about this car for me to believe they didn't think that one through as well.