Battery Replacement Program Details

[ERG4ALL]

In case Brian is reading all of this, here's my two cents.

One problem is that people who purchased their LEAFs also purchased a battery and as I read it there is no provision for receiving any value for that. Second, Brian wrote:

We have some work to do to more clearly explain the program on some levels

This somewhat inflames the issue by indicating that the problem is in the explanation rather than the program itself.

Also, for many people 9 bars is not enough given Nissan's original mileage claim. I would be one as I live 15 miles out of town so the trips I take are often for 50 miles and I do need to use the Climate Control system occasionally.

However, for us low mileage users (i.e. <12,000 miles/yr.) there is some hope that we may never need a new battery before we are ready for the next generation of technology.

I expect that from the 60 month, 9 bar warranty and the 96 month warranty that the real cost of the battery is somewhere between $6,000 and $9,600. All they need to do is tell us.

The only way the current program makes sense to me is that Nissan may be close enough to the next generation of batteries that they do not want to sell the current technology and then have a bunch of dissatisfied customers who purchased an expensive battery. At the same time they cannot announce that because it would kill current sales and they need a couple years before they can produce the next generation. Under this program the customer will only have paid $100/mo. and can either opt for the new battery if it is backwards compatible or they can trade in and lease/buy the next technology. I hope I'm right.

 

[redLEAF]

I waded through the 20 pages of postings on this and forgive me if I missed it BUT as an owner not a lessee I see a number of implications on this new scheme more importantly as it affects those who purchase 'new' LEAF's after (it's assumed) that it becomes the normal way of getting a new one. As smart (already mentioned earlier) has opted for their Gen III electric drive to offer a 'battery rental' and a high percentage are opting for it (although you still can buy the car outright) how does that effect both state level rebates, the fed tax credit as well as if you lease, the sales tax aspect?

It gets quite complicated here in IL -- for leases, right off the bat, no IL EPA 10% rebate offered so if you lease the car and 'rent' the battery you'll 'lose' that aspect --- also, as you get taxed on the entire purchase price so what would it be? If the battery is considered a true rental service fee, it may be deducted from the selling price of the actual car so perhaps you would save some sales taxes on that; Nissan would still 'own' the car (including its battery) so assume the fed tax credit would still be in force.

If you decide to buy the car now with this new scheme (or even the smart who already offers something similar) and the battery is a rental and not a purchase which is the main reason for the IL EPA rebate I wonder if this would also disqualify you for it as you aren't buying the car with battery any more? In the case of the smart (when it finally gets to Chicago this fall) it will be interesting to see how the IL EPA will interpret 'ownership'.

I've leased cars in the past (just 2) but with the current funky EV rebate laws in IL as well as the double tax on lease cars (full value tax at beginning of lease and taxed again if you decided to buy it after the lease ends) it just made more sense to purchase it outright and with the decent trade in I got for the ICE I was driving, I'll probably simply see how long my battery lasts as well as the body of the car as after all I'm in a rust belt state.

I know what I've got in the car out of pocket and once it reaches a certain age/mileage then the decision does indeed come down to future operating costs --- I've got a '99 Miata with about 60K miles on it that is used much less than my LEAF but costs me very little to insure ($190/yr with limited use insurance) and operate (just the usual ICE running costs but Miata's like most Civic's, etc. can run a looong time) and it's losing much less depreciation versus the first few years I owned it; what would driving my LEAF look like when it's also 14 years old --- well, due to driving it in winters I doubt a bit what it might look like by then but if it's like other year round cars we've owned that long it's going to be rusty and perhaps just a 'beater' by then --- paying $100/mo to keepo it going --- probably not worth it.

 

[thankyouOB]

We have some work to do to more clearly explain the program on some levels

i heard this first, some 40 years ago in a graduate school class at the New School in NYC from former Mayor Robert Wagner.
He was answering the question: what was the biggest thing done wrong in your administration.
"It was our pubic relations. we could have explained our programs so people understood them better."

the first and sometimes the last refuge of those responsible for a failed policy.
however, the "on some levels" is a new low in weasel words.

 

[ruimegas]

For those of us who bought our cars...if I opt for this lease program, what becomes of my original pack? I assume I am free to sell it on the open market as I wish? Or maybe I will keep it for some future use? Or perhaps Nissan will buy it from me?

+1

 

[TomT]

No, it appears that Nissan reclaims it... You don't get to keep it.

I do have to wonder how a company as big as Nissan and with, supposedly, so many smart marketing and PR folks, could so badly botch an announcement such as this!

This announcement certainly pales in light of Tesla's battery swap demonstration, for example...

For those of us who bought our cars...if I opt for this lease program, what becomes of my original pack? I assume I am free to sell it on the open market as I wish? Or maybe I will keep it for some future use? Or perhaps Nissan will buy it from me?

+1

 

[thankyouOB]

i dont think it is the pr folks.
it is hard to believe that they are the ones responsible for the deadline-pushing date of the steal-my-battery plan announcement and that the policy decided upon does not deliver on the original promise and question : what is the price of a new battery.

most likely, it is a policy that cant really be defended without disclosing too much proprietary and inside-business information and calculations, including what the actual current and projected costs are for battery and vehicle.

from what evchels tells us, nissan also stiff-armed the advisory group, which didnt much like the proposal, either.
the only good thing to me is that it keeps the dealerships greedy fingers off the transaction.
for owners, it is a total loser (see my name for it: the steal-my-battery plan).
i wont presume to do the calculations for leasers.

 

[surfingslovak]

People keep referring to this notion the the used pack/modules has value and Nissan should be giving some trade in value for it. I'm not seeing that, nobody is going to want a used battery to make a car that was only going 15 miles go 20, people in that economic strata will be buying used kias. As for the solar storage angle Nissan isn't in that business, and I doubt they want to get into it just to unload used car parts as a free service, not to mention the whole product liability can of worms that opens.

You might want to read the following article then:

ABB, 4R Energy, Nissan North America and Sumitomo to evaluate the reuse of the Nissan LEAF battery for commercial purposes

 

[WetEV]

Hi everyone. Brian Brockman from Nissan Communications again.

Competitive lease deal has a buyout at any time clause:

http://insideevs.com/smart-electric-drive-released-may-15th-lease-deal-and-battery-rental-offer-now-out/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If at anytime you want to break the rental deal, you can, provided you then purchase the aforementioned battery at the full $5,000 valuation

What exactly is your buyout price on a leased battery?

 

[edatoakrun]

Hi everyone:

...I can tell this topic is of very high importance to members of the forum. Thanks for your patience.

Brian

Sorry to have to say it, but you are not welcome, for these not answers.

Will you, as a spokesman for Nissan, simply promise that Nissan will sell us replacement batteries at some point in the future, or is it's intention to impose this "program" on all present and future LEAF owners, in perpituity?

Most likely Seattle renters will be subsidizing phoenix ones.

The exact reason I don't like the "rental" plan. It means that those who treat their battery well will be subsidizing those who abuse it, and renters in cool climates will be picking up part of the tab for Nissan's mistake in selling the Leaf in Arizona.

Well, as I pointed out in the context of the irrational demands of some hot climate LEAFer's, if BEV drivers demand the "fool-proof" BEV that delivers consistent range and battery life regardless of conditions of use, BEV manufactures will deliver a program designed to meet the requirements demanded by "fools".

So, here we will have Nissan (apparently) promising to do exactly that.

A LEAF with ~21 kWh available design battery capacity, that that is guaranteed to maintain approximately ~15 kWh capacity, and the guaranteed maximum range of a one a new ("12 bar") LEAF driven on a Winter 32 F day in Minnesota, when driven on a Summer 112 f day in Phoenix (once the battery gets to "9 bars").

And for the guaranteed price of only $100 a month, forever!

Isn't this exactly the "fool-proof" BEV solution some of the hot-climate LEAFer's have been demanding?

Yes, the "program" is an irrational subsidy that will spur sales/leases to precisely those LEAFer's for whom the LEAF is a poor vehicle choice.

But not exactly the optimum LEAF "program" for any of the "non-fool" LEAFer's, including those living in hot climates, either, IMO.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

People keep referring to this notion the the used pack/modules has value and Nissan should be giving some trade in value for it. I'm not seeing that, nobody is going to want a used battery to make a car that was only going 15 miles go 20, people in that economic strata will be buying used kias. As for the solar storage angle Nissan isn't in that business, and I doubt they want to get into it just to unload used car parts as a free service, not to mention the whole product liability can of worms that opens.

You might want to read the following article then:

ABB, 4R Energy, Nissan North America and Sumitomo to evaluate the reuse of the Nissan LEAF battery for commercial purposes

That was a year and a half ago. Did you also find the press release where they announced the idea died on the vine? Those are harder to find, like snipes.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

As part of the conference call, I "think" I have a better understanding of the program preliminary as it is along with some insights to Nissan's thinking process. I only hope that Nissan will take the EV's community's reaction to the announcement into consideration when finalizing the details of the program

http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com/2013/06/nissan-battery-replacement-program.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Valdemar]

Brian, is it possible at this point you can outline the payment structure with regards to annual mileage? Or at least tell us how many annual miles will be allowed under the announced $100/month plan?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Brian, is it possible at this point you can outline the payment structure with regards to annual mileage? Or at least tell us how many annual miles will be allowed under the announced $100/month plan?

no mileage limitations, no time limitations. you can enter the lease program at 3 years and 50,000 miles or 10 years and 200,000 miles. In either case, you will get a lease battery with 12 bar capacity and most likely with a chemistry more robust than the OEM battery you replace.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

Dear Brian [BBrockman]
1. It was very useful for Nissan through you to help articulate the new $100/Mo offering. I have no doubt that, as you said, for SOME this will prove a very viable option.

2. I speak on behalf of many who in 2010 honestly applauded Nissan and felt very positive about how such a huge corporation had the courage to assume the PIONEER ROLE it took in EVs while it was counting on future technological breakthroughs to deliver the best EV offered to the consumer at the time Nissan took the challenge.

My point of writing is to explain the perspective of MANY who made the decision to go with the LEAF on TWO SOLID PREMISES that were disclosed in 2010 when we made our decisions to reserve LEAFs: a) That the range is around 100 miles, b) that we can expect about 80% capacity at 10 years. Many of us WERE WAITING for the technology to cross these thresholds for us to buy the LEAFs and WOULD NOT have jumped in otherwise.

3. From what's unfolding as we speak it is becoming more evident that the promise "ABOUT 80 Miles for 6 year old 2010/2013 24Kwh batteries" will not be realized with current technology. It also looks like by 2016-2017 more advanced technologies may make that "80mi_for>6yr" achievable.

4. What many of your 2011-2015 LEAF owners (or prospective owners) want is just this "80mi_for>6yr" capability by whichever means possible. In addition to the option above at (1), NISSAN SHOULD CONSIDER developing a "stop gap" technical bridge to deliver this goal while the guys and gals at the labs are hard at work. NISSAN COULD OFFER A 5-6Kwh ADD ON PACK TO BE DISTRIBUTED IN THE TRUNK/FLOOR/FRONT (1.5-2Kwh each). Your engineers a fully capable of seamlessly integrating these CAPACITY EXTENDERS into the whole EV (Even some MNL members can most likely do it too if they had access to the specifications and codes).

5. It looks like the 24Kwh pack is around $7800. So 6Kwh add-on mod should cost $2-3K which many owners will gladly pay. I would also venture that even having the add-on package in three 2Kwh modules would be even better as we can buy them and add them as we loose capacity bars. The idea of scrapping the entire 24Kwh pack because it lost 30% capacity is TOO WASTEFUL AND HENCE TOO EXPENSIVE. Nissan will loose money on it and the owners will feel bitter about their share of the high cost. If the main battery pack lost 30% of its capacity, shoot for 30% replacement in 3 modules adding 10% capacity each. This will be much cheaper!

6. THIS SOLUTION MAY COST NISSAN LESS THAN THE GIANT RENT A BATTERY SCHEME on the long run and would even provide several "spin-offs" that may prove valuable in many other Nissan hybrid vehicle projects. By 2016-2017 the capacity integrity problem may be less felt with more modern technologies coming on board .

Al

2011 June LEAF, 32.5K 11 Bars, NorCal

you do not address the cost to continue driving electric for EARLY ADOPTERS. many are very happy with the LEAF if range degradation is not considered. I think $100 a month is much better than purchasing another vehicle in 2016. This program buoys the value of the earlier LEAFs by insuring that there is a bottom to the range degradation FOREVER. now, I think there should be some "adjustments" to the program and the very very preliminary announcement does allow for quite a bit of that or am I the only one to notice the lack of details here?

 

[Valdemar]

Brian, is it possible at this point you can outline the payment structure with regards to annual mileage? Or at least tell us how many annual miles will be allowed under the announced $100/month plan?

no mileage limitations, no time limitations. you can enter the lease program at 3 years and 50,000 miles or 10 years and 200,000 miles. In either case, you will get a lease battery with 12 bar capacity and most likely with a chemistry more robust than the OEM battery you replace.

Hmm, perhaps I misread it but I thought it was mentioned here that annual mileage will affect the "subscription" price. If there is no mileage limit I'm in

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

here is my battery replacement program: option 1: trade in car and get new battery with new car (what nissan wants)

option 2: purchase salvage leaf or leaf battery and swap packs

option 2 still requires paying for old technology (the same one that is highly susceptible to heat) and paying a somewhat large lump sum (without exchange, I dont see anyone getting a pack for less than $5,000) and you might get a pack that might fail a few years down the line without any warranty coverage for even workmanship.

that is a big gamble

 

[BBrockman]

Vlademar/Dave: I need to get a better answer for that for you on mileage. It's on the list for Q&A. Sorry I can't answer that immediately.

Brian, is it possible at this point you can outline the payment structure with regards to annual mileage? Or at least tell us how many annual miles will be allowed under the announced $100/month plan?

no mileage limitations, no time limitations. you can enter the lease program at 3 years and 50,000 miles or 10 years and 200,000 miles. In either case, you will get a lease battery with 12 bar capacity and most likely with a chemistry more robust than the OEM battery you replace.

Hmm, perhaps I misread it but I thought it was mentioned here that annual mileage will affect the "subscription" price. If there is no mileage limit I'm in

 

[KJD]

Brian, is it possible at this point you can outline the payment structure with regards to annual mileage? Or at least tell us how many annual miles will be allowed under the announced $100/month plan?

no mileage limitations, no time limitations. you can enter the lease program at 3 years and 50,000 miles or 10 years and 200,000 miles. In either case, you will get a lease battery with 12 bar capacity and most likely with a chemistry more robust than the OEM battery you replace.

Why the hell would I want to spend $100. a month on a 10 year old car ?

If I wanted a permanent car payment I would just lease the entire car for less than $200. a month and get a new battery pack every 24 months.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=11245" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I have no need for a car with only 9 capacity bars.

 

[smkettner]

Time for the next sequel..... "Who Killed the EV Battery"

Essentially there is no way to continue to own your vehicle with a battery. Eventually you must turn it back in. Gives the taste of GM EV1 all over again.

 

[WetEV]

Vlademar/Dave: I need to get a better answer for that for you on mileage. It's on the list for Q&A. Sorry I can't answer that immediately.

Is the lease termination cost on the list for Q&A?