Battery Replacement Program Details

[edatoakrun]

="DaveinOlyWA"

...I like owning what I have paid for when I bought my LEAF, both my LEAF, and the battery in it.

If I am precluded by Nissan's from continuing do so at any point in the future, I expect that I would consider it a violation of the sales contract by Nissan.

ok so you are telling me that you did not know that "batteries do not last forever?"

the battery replacement program is voluntary and allows you to have the latest in battery technology for an older vehicle. your other option is to do what everyone else does when the car no longer fits their needs which is sell it and get a new one...

I'm not worried about my LEAF "no longer (fitting my) needs", should that ever occurs.

And as I've said before, this "program", at least the rough draft of it, sounds like a great deal for those who want it.

I am concerned that if this program is not "voluntary", in that when a part of my LEAF I expect to replace, the Battery pack, does need replacement, which I expect to probably be the case in another four to six years, Nissan may refuse to sell me a new or "rebuilt" pack, despite disclosure statement in my sales contract, which IMO, pretty clearly stated Nissan's contractual obligation (quite possibly in addition to statutory requirements) to do so.

If Nissan wants to sell or lease LEAFs and rent the batteries separately in the future, that is certainly Nissan's right, though it looks to me like a pretty idiotic idea, that could even "kill" a great car.

Nissan's future plans, however, have no effect to relieve Nissan of the contractual and statutory obligations Nissan accepted when Nissan accepted my payment for my LEAF.

 

[oscar]

One reason I bought my EV in 2011 was to drive it for 5 years and hope battery pack improve and cost drop to $4-5K. Now I see $100 lease with no time limitation on payoff. It’s sad day for me and all future Nissan Leaf owner. If Nissan going follow through with this $100 lease payment with no payoff dates. I am totally disappointed for the first wave of EV owner who supported Nissan.

All future EV owners will benefit just leasing the Nissan Leaf. This leaves the existing Nissan Leaf owner with junk car and shitty resale values.

Now I really like what Honda EV did for their lease $249.00, no down, collision insurance, free home charger and unlimited mileage.

Nissan you screw over your most important supporter….Shame on YOU!

 

[Valdemar]

DaveinOlyWA is talking about no limit you already have on your LEAF BEFORE you enter the deal. So you can have a 10 year-old LEAF that's already at 200K miles, and you can still sign up for the deal. But AFTER you sign up for the deal, you will be bound by the new rental mileage limit, whatever that is. So now you will lose your freedom of being to put as many miles as you need on the car like you used to be able to do before you sign up for the plan.

Bingo! as far as the "real" cost of the program or any limitations of the program AFTER entering the program, there was not a single word devoted to that subject here or in our conference call.

I can guess that there will be tiered options (like all leases) for monthly cost and mileage and or time. now, we can hope (and will lobby for)

leases that vary in levels of degradation (although Nissan was pretty insistent on the 9 bar thing but there is still time to change minds here)

there also has to be some sort of termination clause/penalty and a way to enforce it. how they will do it is anyone's guess. i simply do not know enough legal-wise to even begin to guess how they will do it. definitely not speculating on this question as several of my statements have already gone off the rails

FYI; i edited my blog to change some words. keep in mind, i ended a 60 hour work week very late last night and am essentially home for first time is 2½ days for longer than 3 hours (ya, sleep is a luxury!) so the blog was ramblings off the top of my head resulting from the 2 days I have had the info bouncing around in my head. proof reading was brief and all that

I sensed there was confusion here. $100/mo AFTER signing the contract with no mileage contract sounds like TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, and it probably is. Now, I'm putting close to 20k/year annually on my Leaf, how much will it cost? For $200/mo I'll just get a Prius and forget about range anxiety.

 

[TRONZ]

Well it would seem that, from a consumers standpoint, Nissan has established a 5 year life cycle for this Gen1 pack. This is the declared period of warranty and should apply to the warranty of future packs as well. Maybe Nissan should offer a new pack option at $100/month after every five years in the program. I mean we are talking about big chunks of time here when the vast majority of cars are retired at 8 years. Maybe this would add "value confidence" that dropping to 9 bars at year 8 and paying forever does not provide. That would mean after core return the new pack is valued at $6000. In my experience of owning 14 different cars, drivetrain service expense grows exponentially with age. Since the LEAF should only need a battery refresh from year 5 to 10 I find this program very useful. However, Nissan does need to address the secondary market as these buyers are almost exclusively cash only. Being able to get a "payoff" price on the "rented" pack would be essential for people to sell their cars and horse trade well. This payoff amount would not disclose the full price of the pack since it would be based on an unspecified core return credit. People get a payoff/opt out of the program and sell their cars WITHOUT Nissan disclosing the price of the pack. Buyers of used car can then opt back into the program based on each cars 5 year cycle. I get that EV manufacturers need to closely guard the price of their packs because it could quickly be used against them by any competitor that does not produce EV's and or corporations that want them to fail. In all of this we must appreciate that Nissan does not want to keep making Gen1 cells forever. I believe that manufacturers are required to provide OEM parts for only 10 years on each model they produce. After that you WILL rely on after market parts. There are a lot of moving parts at play here and some very reasonable options being offered by Nissan. A bit of program refinement is all thats needed but its a very good start.

 

[Valdemar]

Now I really like what Honda EV did for their lease $249.00, no down, collision insurance, free home charger and unlimited mileage.

For all I know Honda Fit EV is not a real car. If you don't believe it you can try to acquire one and let us know how it went.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

of SOC on MY 2011-12 but guessing its some sort of unspecified hardware limitation. or simply too tough a software challenge? who knows?

but comparing the two is just a bit beyond me. For under $100 you can get one yourself and before I hear the cries of indignation that Nissan is "forcing" us to pay $100 to get some basic info, lets talk about aftermarket water temp, oil pressure gauges we put into gas cars because of our "wonderfully deep trust" of idiot lights

Dave, sorry, and perhaps I'm misreading your posts, but this does not make sense at all. There are multiple proprietary computers in he LEAF, which some owners have worked hard to gain some understanding of. It won't be possible to upgrade these computers or mate old cars with new parts from more recent model year vehicles. Not unless Nissan had specifically allowed for this in their design.

There was some hope that older cars will be able to install the 6 kW onboard charger, which did not materialize, and it wasn't just because the physical location and design of the charger has changed. There was some hope for software changes, aside from a capacity gauge reprogram, but that has not materialized either.

While there is the theoretical possibility that the hypothetical 32 kWh pack, which Nissan might release in a few years, can be installed in a 2011 MY LEAF, I would personally rate the likelihood of this as very low. It's always good to ask for the moon, with that I agree.

That said, it would be prudent to assume that if someone enters a rental agreement for a part, such as the battery, they can reasonably expect to be giving access to same or comparable part for the duration of the lease. While Nissan might tweak the chemistry in the cells, I would not assume that the pack hardware or controller will change in a material way, since it might make the pack incompatible with older cars.

well, no one knows what the future will hold but Nissan did state that this program would allow one to get a lease battery that is better (or equal) than the OEM. now, it was implied the improvements would be chemistry-based so guessing that to mean something more heat tolerant, more cycles, etc.

but in all these cases, backwards compatibility will be an issue and if Nissan pulls it off without any hiccups they will be the first company in the history of any industry to do so.

on a larger capacity battery? again, we dont know what the future holds but guessing the hardware change requirements would be extreme to where the dropping prices (and increased capacity) of newer EVs would make the option not viable. This option i see as a "die-hard" owner going 3rd party.

now, something i kicked around in my head without knowing if this is even possible but if weight/size could be reduced enough, the BMS could be reprogrammed to use only 75% of the existing capacity initially then increasing access to a larger pack as degradation sets in. The ideology being since the same amount of power is available, required hardware changes could be reduced..but like i said, just a fantasy thought

 

[91040]

If Nissan's battery program is the only way to get a replacement from them, they have effectively removed themselves from providing replacement batteries to a large segment of owners. This creates more incentive to third party suppliers.

Nissan had a huge advantage in EVs in 2011. They have been squandering it ever since with their decisions regarding the CHAdeMO infrastructure, battery heat issues and now this. Anyone read Tuchman’s March of Folly?

I do not like leases. I bought a car planning to use it as long as possible. I expected to replace the battery and anything else that wore out. What indication was there, until recently, that the paradigm of car ownership would change after purchase?

 

[Valdemar]

wait a second!! how can you make that concrete statement? NO ONE KNOWS what the future holds

If Nissan doesn't think adding the SOC gauge to the '11 and '12 is "worth it" what makes you think they're going to rise up to provide stunning new BMS and batteries to these older cars, something that's orders of magnitude more difficult with (possibly) little pay out.

Past and present actions are probably a good marker of future actions. :x

+1. So far the Leaf ownership was a synonym for broken promises to me. 80% remaining capacity after 5 years - fail, roll out of 500 QC stations - fail, battery price announcement - fail, and most importantly happy owner - fail.

 

[Petecomp1]

It finally dawned on me why this is so hard for them. It's because the price/cost really is what it was rumored to be originally, in the neighborhood of $15k, not $5 or 6k as suggested recently. Nissan gets big regulatory credits for selling EVs, so they will sell these cars for at a loss if need be and almost certainly are, but there are no such credits for replacement parts. Announcing/confirming to the world that a replacement battery costs $15k will totally kill the resale of these cars, which is problematic for Nissan since they have a boatload of them coming off lease. Of even greater concern, as if that's not enough, is it will unleash a media/PR nightmare for Nissan. So they came up with this scheme to kick the can down the road.

As long as conditions (mostly government mandated) rig the game so it's in Nissan's best financial interest to allow us to ride the cheap lease pony I say rock on. I really don't think you want to touch owning one of these cars unless you don't mind taking a bath on it.

Right on! I suspect you are correct regarding the actual cost of the battery. But, I think, when all's said & done, it's all about the lawyers, insurance companies, and gov't regs. Can't blame Nissan for doing what's in their own corporate best interest!
But why does it cost so much to make a battery?? I don't have figures but I'd take long odds that the majority of the cost is for insurance, lobbying and lawyers, not for actual production and fabrication. That's the environment the car companies must cope with. Love to see a good up-to-date cost breakdown on Li battery production including overhead costs. Is Tesla on track to beat the battery cost issue?

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

DaveinOlyWA is talking about no limit you already have on your LEAF BEFORE you enter the deal. So you can have a 10 year-old LEAF that's already at 200K miles, and you can still sign up for the deal. But AFTER you sign up for the deal, you will be bound by the new rental mileage limit, whatever that is. So now you will lose your freedom of being to put as many miles as you need on the car like you used to be able to do before you sign up for the plan.

Bingo! as far as the "real" cost of the program or any limitations of the program AFTER entering the program, there was not a single word devoted to that subject here or in our conference call.

I can guess that there will be tiered options (like all leases) for monthly cost and mileage and or time. now, we can hope (and will lobby for)

leases that vary in levels of degradation (although Nissan was pretty insistent on the 9 bar thing but there is still time to change minds here)

there also has to be some sort of termination clause/penalty and a way to enforce it. how they will do it is anyone's guess. i simply do not know enough legal-wise to even begin to guess how they will do it. definitely not speculating on this question as several of my statements have already gone off the rails

FYI; i edited my blog to change some words. keep in mind, i ended a 60 hour work week very late last night and am essentially home for first time is 2½ days for longer than 3 hours (ya, sleep is a luxury!) so the blog was ramblings off the top of my head resulting from the 2 days I have had the info bouncing around in my head. proof reading was brief and all that

I sensed there was confusion here. $100/mo AFTER signing the contract with no mileage contract sounds like TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, and it probably is. Now, I'm putting close to 20k/year annually on my Leaf, how much will it cost? For $200/mo I'll just get a Prius and forget about range anxiety.

sorry, that is my bad. i edited my blog because it was VERY unclear. keep in mind, the "$100" cost is only representative. hoping for tiered prices that will cover all needs but no info on that yet. we have no clue on limitations AFTER entry into the leasing program but the annual mileage imho has to take a backseat to the range.

if you have a 9 bar car and live in a modest climate, it could take 2 years to lose that bar and qualify for a replacement. it would be a logistical challenge to drive that far with that little range. you would literally have to be plugged in as soon as you park and ya, i would love to think our public charging options will have progressed to that point! but...


a word on the $100 cost. i think that is just a jumping off point to give us some generality of the program. once again, there are no details, but hoping for a whole range of pricing/mileage options. The right way to go is something cheaper for very low mileage drivers, mid range for the 13,000-15,000 mile driver and then something for road warrior. unlike a limited lease mileage program, penalties for increasing mileage wont fly here.

 

[edatoakrun]

...I get that EV manufacturers need to closely guard the price of their packs because it could quickly be used against them by any competitor that does not produce EV's and or corporations that want them to fail...

Another interpretation of why it would be that Nissan does not want to disclose the sales price, and instead replace battery sales with in the "rental" model, is that Nissan is well aware that other battery manufactures are willing and capable of entering the market to supply replacement packs, or to "rebuild" the factory packs with replacement batteries, and would far prefer to instead use the "rental" program to establish a near-monopoly on traction battery maintenance.

How would you like having to pay a "monthly fee" to the manufacturer each month forever, once your ICEV's factory 12 volt battery fails, rather than just dropping by Wal-Mart or Costco to pick up a replacement, at the price as reduced by the core charge?

 

[oscar]

Now I really like what Honda EV did for their lease $249.00, no down, collision insurance, free home charger and unlimited mileage.

For all I know Honda Fit EV is not a real car. If you don't believe it you can try to acquire one and let us know how it went.

It's not important the Honda EV is good car or not but there is a long waiting listed at every Honda dealer and all over the web. They just became a recognize EV Brand overnight. What Nissan did will create a big backlash. Releasing this deal with no detail....wow. Imagine all the people wanting buy a Nissan Leaf now...what a joke. Now my current Nissan Leaf resale values just went down the tube!!!!

Thanks for nothing on this release now I can't even resale the car! Maybe Nissan offer a nice trade in values and lease their new Nissan Leaf. I will be a taker....nightmare for current owner of Nissan Leaf. This news release just KILL Nissan Leaf....what a joke!

 

[Volusiano]

It finally dawned on me why this is so hard for them. It's because the price/cost really is what it was rumored to be originally, in the neighborhood of $15k, not $5 or 6k as suggested recently. Nissan gets big regulatory credits for selling EVs, so they will sell these cars for at a loss if need be and almost certainly are, but there are no such credits for replacement parts. Announcing/confirming to the world that a replacement battery costs $15k will totally kill the resale of these cars, which is problematic for Nissan since they have a boatload of them coming off lease. Of even greater concern, as if that's not enough, is it will unleash a media/PR nightmare for Nissan. So they came up with this scheme to kick the can down the road.

As long as conditions (mostly government mandated) rig the game so it's in Nissan's best financial interest to allow us to ride the cheap lease pony I say rock on. I really don't think you want to touch owning one of these cars unless you don't mind taking a bath on it.

So are you saying that if Nissan takes back a lease and re-lease it again, they would get another gov't regulatory credit to its favor because it would be counted as another sales? So they can get 3 or 4 "sales credit" on the same car if it gets leased 3 or 4 times over its useful life? But on the other hand, if they sell the car, they only get 1 gov't sales credit and that's it, because further resale of the car is done by the owners and is out of Nissan's control?

I've always wondered why Nissan encourages leases over purchases, and if it has to do with the gov't regulatory sales credit, then it'd make a lot of sense over their recent announcement. This latest debacle of their "Steal-Your-LEAF-battery" plan is then just another ploy by Nissan to kill any chance of further LEAF purchases to push people over to LEAF leases only.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It finally dawned on me why this is so hard for them. It's because the price/cost really is what it was rumored to be originally, in the neighborhood of $15k, not $5 or 6k as suggested recently. Nissan gets big regulatory credits for selling EVs, so they will sell these cars for at a loss if need be and almost certainly are, but there are no such credits for replacement parts. Announcing/confirming to the world that a replacement battery costs $15k will totally kill the resale of these cars, which is problematic for Nissan since they have a boatload of them coming off lease. Of even greater concern, as if that's not enough, is it will unleash a media/PR nightmare for Nissan. So they came up with this scheme to kick the can down the road.

As long as conditions (mostly government mandated) rig the game so it's in Nissan's best financial interest to allow us to ride the cheap lease pony I say rock on. I really don't think you want to touch owning one of these cars unless you don't mind taking a bath on it.

Right on! I suspect you are correct regarding the actual cost of the battery. But, I think, when all's said & done, it's all about the lawyers, insurance companies, and gov't regs. Can't blame Nissan for doing what's in their own corporate best interest!
But why does it cost so much to make a battery?? I don't have figures but I'd take long odds that the majority of the cost is for insurance, lobbying and lawyers, not for actual production and fabrication. That's the environment the car companies must cope with. Love to see a good up-to-date cost breakdown on Li battery production including overhead costs. Is Tesla on track to beat the battery cost issue?

did either of you buy the iphone 4 when it first came out, paying big bucks only to see people paying $100 less 3 months later? how did you feel? well, i am guessing pretty good since Apple gave the money back.

how would you feel buying a replacement pack for $5,000 today knowing that in certain areas you will only have 75% of that capacity in 3 years and before paying that battery off on your 3 year payment plan at $150 a month, Nissan comes out with a battery with better chemistry that is expected to retain 90% of its capacity after 5 years in Phoenix and are selling it for $3,000?

I have to say we are not looking at the big picture here. I have been burned DOZENS of time by the march of technology. Man, I cannot tell you the depth of my love for RCA had they provided me something like this for my $900 28" CRT or my $350 DVD player or even my $199 NON SMARTPHONE!

but no! none of these companies provided me the option to pay a modest monthly price and still be able to get the latest technology. I paid the full price only to see something with twice the capability sell for 50 cents on the dollar...

another thing to keep in mind is that 3rd party vendors only exists because there is a market. If Nissan wont sell battery packs outright, someone will

 

[Valdemar]

Now I really like what Honda EV did for their lease $249.00, no down, collision insurance, free home charger and unlimited mileage.

For all I know Honda Fit EV is not a real car. If you don't believe it you can try to acquire one and let us know how it went.

It's not important the Honda EV is good car or not but there is a long waiting listed at every Honda dealer and all over the web. They just became a recognize EV Brand overnight. What Nissan did will create a big backlash. Releasing this deal with no detail....wow. Imagine all the people wanting buy a Nissan Leaf now...what a joke. Now my current Nissan Leaf resale values just went down the tube!!!!

Thanks for nothing on this release now I can't even resale the car! Maybe Nissan offer a nice trade in values and lease their new Nissan Leaf. I will be a taker....nightmare for current owner of Nissan Leaf. This news release just KILL Nissan Leaf....what a joke!

Honda Fit EV is a good car, but it is a not a mass produced vehicle. It only exists so that Honda can meet zero-emission vehicle sale requirements in some states. They planned to sell 1100 of them over the course of 2 years. Nissan sells close to two times than number of Leafs each month now. They were losing money on the original lease and still couldn't move enough of them to avoid penalties, that is why they lowered the price to this new ridiculous amount in order to move all the cars they needed to meet the requirements. Bottom line - HFEV example is a bad argument in this discussion. This is not to say that I'm happy with Nissan and this announcement in particular.

 

[oscar]

It finally dawned on me why this is so hard for them. It's because the price/cost really is what it was rumored to be originally, in the neighborhood of $15k, not $5 or 6k as suggested recently. Nissan gets big regulatory credits for selling EVs, so they will sell these cars for at a loss if need be and almost certainly are, but there are no such credits for replacement parts. Announcing/confirming to the world that a replacement battery costs $15k will totally kill the resale of these cars, which is problematic for Nissan since they have a boatload of them coming off lease. Of even greater concern, as if that's not enough, is it will unleash a media/PR nightmare for Nissan. So they came up with this scheme to kick the can down the road.

As long as conditions (mostly government mandated) rig the game so it's in Nissan's best financial interest to allow us to ride the cheap lease pony I say rock on. I really don't think you want to touch owning one of these cars unless you don't mind taking a bath on it.

So are you saying that if Nissan takes back a lease and re-lease it again, they would get another gov't regulatory credit to its favor because it would be counted as another sales? So they can get 3 or 4 "sales credit" on the same car if it gets leased 3 or 4 times over its useful life? But on the other hand, if they sell the car, they only get 1 gov't sales credit and that's it, because further resale of the car is done by the owners and is out of Nissan's control?

I've always wondered why Nissan encourages leases over purchases, and if it has to do with the gov't regulatory sales credit, then it'd make a lot of sense over their recent announcement. This latest debacle of their "Steal-Your-LEAF-battery" plan is then just another ploy by Nissan to kill any chance of further LEAF purchases to push people over to LEAF leases only.

+1

You Nail it!!! Nissan Just screw owner ship of Leaf! It's great for future lease owner of Leaf but screw all current owner of Nissan Leaf! Failure never going buy another Nissan Brnad screwing over your current owner and supporter!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

It finally dawned on me why this is so hard for them. It's because the price/cost really is what it was rumored to be originally, in the neighborhood of $15k, not $5 or 6k as suggested recently. Nissan gets big regulatory credits for selling EVs, so they will sell these cars for at a loss if need be and almost certainly are, but there are no such credits for replacement parts. Announcing/confirming to the world that a replacement battery costs $15k will totally kill the resale of these cars, which is problematic for Nissan since they have a boatload of them coming off lease. Of even greater concern, as if that's not enough, is it will unleash a media/PR nightmare for Nissan. So they came up with this scheme to kick the can down the road.

As long as conditions (mostly government mandated) rig the game so it's in Nissan's best financial interest to allow us to ride the cheap lease pony I say rock on. I really don't think you want to touch owning one of these cars unless you don't mind taking a bath on it.

So are you saying that if Nissan takes back a lease and re-lease it again, they would get another gov't regulatory credit to its favor because it would be counted as another sales? So they can get 3 or 4 "sales credit" on the same car if it gets leased 3 or 4 times over its useful life? But on the other hand, if they sell the car, they only get 1 gov't sales credit and that's it, because further resale of the car is done by the owners and is out of Nissan's control?

I've always wondered why Nissan encourages leases over purchases, and if it has to do with the gov't regulatory sales credit, then it'd make a lot of sense over their recent announcement. This latest debacle of their "Steal-Your-LEAF-battery" plan is then just another ploy by Nissan to kill any chance of further LEAF purchases to push people over to LEAF leases only.

ah noooo. the credit is applied when another EV is put onto the street. changing ownership status of an existing EV does not get credit...

 

[smkettner]

how would you feel buying a replacement pack for $5,000 today knowing that in certain areas you will only have 75% of that capacity in 3 years and before paying that battery off on your 3 year payment plan at $150 a month, Nissan comes out with a battery with better chemistry that is expected to retain 90% of its capacity after 5 years in Phoenix and are selling it for $3,000?

I am far more pleased with paying $5,000 now if I choose and $3,000 later if I again choose.
$100 per month for as long as I want to drive the car, not happy at all.

Besides, if the battery price is dropping why am I locked in at $100? That should be dropping not fixed.

IMO you are giving far too much credit to battery improvements in the near future. It is like dangling a carrot that you never actually get.

You can bet if Nissan offers an 18 bar battery it will not continue at just $100 per month. :lol:

 

[Stoaty]

Well it would seem that, from a consumers standpoint, Nissan has established a 5 year life cycle for this Gen1 pack. This is the declared period of warranty and should apply to the warranty of future packs as well.

Not true. They don't establish the warranty based on the average pack, they establish it so that they won't have to replace too many packs. The 5 years to 70% is a floor, not an average life cycle. It may very well be that Leafs in many climates will average 80% capacity at 5 years and 70% capacity in 10 years... just not in Arizona, Texas, Florida or hotter parts of California. The Battery Aging Model (which my Leaf is tracking very closely, but beating slightly) predicts that I will hit 70% at 12.5 years and 119,000 miles. Now that I found a place to park in the shade at work and can decrease solar loading, I may do even better.

 

[JPWhite]

With Winter range degradation, a 9 bar battery simply does not cut it.

+1

Tiered model would be much better. One size does not fit all.