15,000 miles later.....

[smkettner]

.....we're getting asked a lot of questions again, now that I guess gas is going up.

I have so tuned out watching gas prices :lol: Up or down I have no idea

Only half the miles as the OP but I am working on it.

 

[aqn]

I'm impressed: putting on 10k+ miles on an EV in less than a year. That's a lot of charging!

But I've got to say...

[...] I'm already at 10,200... So far I cannot detect any battery degradation... How about anybody else?

Well, judging by the battery degradation gauge, it looks like your battery still has all of its original capacity, so that is good news.

So far, I haven't seen any battery degradation indications.

All y'all have had your car for less than a year, with relatively few miles on them, and you're acting like you've just cheated death just because the battery appears to have its original capacity! I hope you don't need therapy when your LEAF gets older!

 

[TaylorSFGuy]

I'm over 18,000 miles at 5-1/2 months. I'm glad to see others are racking up the miles. The more of us that are out there, the more likely people will accept that an EV is a viable option. Good on all of you high mileage drivers. Winter is here and the rubber meets the road now - wet roads, wipers and lights on, blower on at 60 degrees to keep the window clear - wearing gloves and flannel jeans to try and stay warm - can't afford the energy used by heater. I'm still running 125 to 140 miles a day and no real drop in capacity - when not pushing water out of the way etal, I'm getting at least 4 miles/kwh. When rainy like tonight, it has dropped to 3.6 so jumped off the freeway for last 7 miles and took surface streets which pushed it up to 3.9.

 

[Stoaty]

Well, judging by the battery degradation gauge, it looks like your battery still has all of its original capacity, so that is good news.

No, that battery gauge just tells you that you have somewhere between 85 and 100% of the original capacity. The first capacity bar doesn't disappear until you hit 84% capacity (info from service manual, posted in several other threads).

 

[Herm]

aaand we have a winner! :shock:

70 mile commute to work I guess?

I'm over 18,000 miles at 5-1/2 months. I'm glad to see others are racking up the miles. The more of us that are out there, the more likely people will accept that an EV is a viable option. Good on all of you high mileage drivers. Winter is here and the rubber meets the road now - wet roads, wipers and lights on, blower on at 60 degrees to keep the window clear - wearing gloves and flannel jeans to try and stay warm - can't afford the energy used by heater. I'm still running 125 to 140 miles a day and no real drop in capacity - when not pushing water out of the way etal, I'm getting at least 4 miles/kwh. When rainy like tonight, it has dropped to 3.6 so jumped off the freeway for last 7 miles and took surface streets which pushed it up to 3.9.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I did a typical 120.2 mile day today, and approaching 12,000 miles in exactly 6 months.

Congrats to the high milers, and hopes for many more trouble free miles.

Tony

 

[DaveEV]

Good to see you guys piling on the EV miles - I'm still under 4k miles...

 

[TomT]

Just passed 9,000 here... I'm averaging about 1,200 a month. I will be well over 11,000 by the end of the year.

Good to see you guys piling on the EV miles - I'm still under 4k miles...

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

congrats Jimmy; have not read thru the thread but curious as to why you state 3 cents a mile with solar array. is your array not providing enough left over to charge the Leaf?

 

[KLQL8N]

I picked up my Leaf April 30, 2011.
I have 3000 miles. My commute each day is 24 miles.
I love this car and its solar powered!!
Perfect for me!!

 

[Jimmydreams]

congrats Jimmy; have not read thru the thread but curious as to why you state 3 cents a mile with solar array. is your array not providing enough left over to charge the Leaf?

My solar powers my house and is on a separate meter. I'm simply showing the cost of the Leaf for 15,000 miles if you DON'T have solar. But in reality, yes, a lot of those Leaf miles were really free due to my solar.

All y'all have had your car for less than a year, with relatively few miles on them, and you're acting like you've just cheated death just because the battery appears to have its original capacity! I hope you don't need therapy when your LEAF gets older!

Wow....pessimistic much? :? I was merely answering the question directed at me by people who are worried about battery degradation. Me? I'm not too worried. I think we'll all see some, but not the 20% after 3-5 years some are worried about.

 

[tps]

All with zero emissions from it's non-existent tailpipe!!!

EVs are the perfect commuter car!!!

I'll be happy on the day I too can own a LEAF and make that claim!

 

[mwalsh]

I'm not too worried. I think we'll all see some, but not the 20% after 3-5 years some are worried about.

At this point, I'm not all that worried either. I thought I heard that capacity fade happened early in a LiON battery's life and, seeing as we're almost a year in and have seen next to none, I think that bodes well for the long-term (fingers crossed).

However, I also know that LiON batteries don't like to be held at 100% charge for long AND don't like to be discharged fully. So leaves me in something of a "rock and a hard place" situation, since I have to go one way or the other to drive to and from work without daytime recharging. So I do charge to 100% but try to have charging end as close as possible to the changeover between super off-peak and morning off-peak (6am), which also puts me within 2-3 hours of having to leave for work. I've also decided of late to only charge to 80% on days off, so my car isn't sitting at 100% charge for full days where I don't really plan to use it.

 

[Caracalover]

I should break 10,000 by the end of the year, 80% club here, so I can easiliy use the heat, A/C, and still have plenty of juice to jackrabbit onto the freeway!

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

several articles on LI batt tech suggests that the #1 detriment to battery range is time. that would imply that the difference in degradation from someone driving 25,000 a year and someone driving 10,000 miles would be minimal assuming neither has abused the battery pack.

by abuse that means;

subjected to extended periods of extreme hot or cold (Extreme A
Z summer days seem to come uncomfortably (pun intended) close to the stated parameters. i would definitely park in the comfort of the 110º shade)

frequent starting of charging when SOC is over 80%

driving in Turtle mode.

extended periods when SOC is at or near 100%. (does ANYONE have any info as to how long is acceptable, borderline, or bad. i frequently get to 100% a good 5-7 hours before i need to drive. should i adjust? )

notice what is NOT here;

QC to 80% (iow, do it once a month or 10 times a day. no problem) Japan has an EXTENSIVE QC system with some Leafers reporting having used QC 2,000 times or averaging 6+ times PER DAY.

mileage limitations. it is almost the more you drive the better the Leaf likes it

so maybe all those "circle drives" to monitor the various operations of the Leaf is not as much of a waste of resources (especially if you are on Solar) after all

 

[surfingslovak]

extended periods when SOC is at or near 100%. (does ANYONE have any info as to how long is acceptable, borderline, or bad. i frequently get to 100% a good 5-7 hours before i need to drive. should i adjust? )

Everything you said makes sense, at least based on what I've learned over the last few months. It's difficult to quantify any of the factors without a good model. It's a guessing game, since we don't have access to the battery cells, except the ones that are in the car.

Personally, I would think that occasional 5 to 7 hours spent at 100% should not make much difference. However, if this was your daily routine, then about 20 to 25% of the time would be spent at this a state of charge, and one could expect a measurable difference. How large a difference? That's tough to say, I don't know, perhaps additional 0.5% or 1% capacity loss per year?

I often think of what Gary once said. These speculative numbers are only averages. There will be individual differences between cars, and this noise will likely down out some of the information we are looking for. There is already some indication of that in the Tesla and MINI E data samples I had a chance to look at. Nissan on the other hand, will have a large sample to base their decisions on, assuming that they collect this type of data (and more) during the annual battery check.

I could be wrong, but I believe that capacity degradation is stored in the VCM. Perhaps Leaf owners will collectively figure out how to access that information and share it. That would close the feedback loop and provide a great learning opportunity.

 

[SanDust]

several articles on LI batt tech suggests that the #1 detriment to battery range is time. that would imply that the difference in degradation from someone driving 25,000 a year and someone driving 10,000 miles would be minimal assuming neither has abused the battery pack.

Different Li-ion batteries have very different shelf lives, but all Li-ion batteries have a cycle life. This means that driving 25,000 miles a year will stress the battery more than going 10,000 miles since you're putting 2.5X more cycles on the battery. The life of all Li-ion batteries are also negatively impacted by high temperatures. Leaf batteries in Arizona or Palm Springs won't last as long as Leaf batteries in San Francisco.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

My understanding from a study that was circulated a while back is that cycle life was considered full charge to full discharge, which we can't even do on the Leaf. the study suggested that using the inner 65% of the batteries charge would extend it's cycle life to tens of thousands of charges. the battery management system on the Leaf is advanced and many of us are charging to 80% most of the time and not coming close to empty, so we are using even less than the inner 65%. I realize that different variations of Li-ion can be quite different, but from all that I've read, I'm feeling relatively confident that your summary does not apply to the Leaf. Wishful thinking perhaps... time will tell!

several articles on LI batt tech suggests that the #1 detriment to battery range is time. that would imply that the difference in degradation from someone driving 25,000 a year and someone driving 10,000 miles would be minimal assuming neither has abused the battery pack.

Different Li-ion batteries have very different shelf lives, but all Li-ion batteries have a cycle life. This means that driving 25,000 miles a year will stress the battery more than going 10,000 miles since you're putting 2.5X more cycles on the battery. The life of all Li-ion batteries are also negatively impacted by high temperatures. Leaf batteries in Arizona or Palm Springs won't last as long as Leaf batteries in San Francisco.

 

[DaveEV]

My understanding from a study that was circulated a while back is that cycle life was considered full charge to full discharge, which we can't even do on the Leaf.

The range of SOC is very important when determining "cycle" life. For example, A123 cells can do 100,000 "cycles" from 40-50% capacity at very high power levels and still maintain around 95% original capacity. This same cell will normally do about 1000 full 100% cycles at 10C before dropping to 80% capacity, so by using only a small range of SOC you can get a LOT more use out of a battery.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/merit_review_2009/energy_storage/es_04_fulop.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[EVDRIVER]

I spoke to one of the LEAF engineers at the Google meeting and he said the pack life would be extended 20X if one one stays between 20-60% and 70-80%. Using between 60-70% is what does the most damage so if you avoid that 10% you are golden.