Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

GRA said:

Via GCC:

easyJet to trial electric taxi system in aircraft; H2 fuel cells, batteries and wheel motors

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02/20160203-easyjet.html

European carrier easyJet plans to test an electric taxi system later this year that utilizes a hydrogen fuel cell stowed in the hold, batteries charged by regenerative braking, and electric wheel motors. The energy can then be used by the aircraft when taxiing without needing to use the jet engines. Due to the high frequency and short sector lengths of easyJet’s operations, around 4% of the airline’s total fuel consumed annually is used when the airline’s aircraft are taxiing. . . .

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Thanks! That sounds like a clever and outstanding use for H2 fuel cells. It solves a real business issue and reduces emissions around airports.

I wonder how this compares with other electric taxiing systems which run from electricity provided by the APU. The question I have is whether or not the APU is running during taxiing. I would say it must be on during that time. So does the fuel cell provide benefits even if the APU is running anyway? Perhaps the simple answer is that easyJet is purchasing a turnkey system which has been qualified to retrofit into their existing jets. The other systems may require installation during manufacture of the aircraft.

It seems the best approach is to use the APU, but replace the jet engine with a hydrogen fuel cell. Both Airbus and Boeing are looking into doing that:

Airbus 2014
Airbus 2012

Boeing 2004
Boeing 2003

Clearly Airbus' work is more current. Boeing's effort seems pretty dated, but the "more electric architecture" found in the Boeing 787 seems most conducive to movement to a fuel cell since the APUs are used primarily to produce electricity in that jet. Perhaps 450 kW is a bit much for a fuel cell using today's technology.

I'd love to see the math on this.

Let's assume the a typical workhorse aircraft like the B737-800 at 180,000 pounds (81646.627 kilograms) max ramp weight.

How much horsepower is required to accelerate from a standing stop with a slushy taxiway, uphill (how much, I don't know) into a headwind with the tires at their lowest permitted tire pressure ?

TonyWilliams said:

I'd love to see the math on this.

Let's assume the a typical workhorse aircraft like the B737-800 at 180,000 pounds (81646.627 kilograms) max ramp weight.

How much horsepower is required to accelerate from a standing stop with a slushy taxiway, uphill (how much, I don't know) into a headwind with the tires at their lowest permitted tire pressure ?

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This video has some details on technical capabilities:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG6ODNJ6nck[/youtube]
Of course this system would not be exclusive of using one or both main engines, so I imagine that would simply be an operational consideration.

The question I have is how much of the savings will be lost due to the added weight increasing fuel burn. The EGTS adds 300 kg to the landing gear plus additional weight for control electronics, batteries and cabling. Perhaps 500 kg total. If you also need to add a fuel cell and H2 storage tanks, perhaps you are talking about another 100 kg. With the next-generation A320 and B737 being capable of legs approaching 4000 nm, I wonder if this type of system will only be installed on planes which will fly shorter segments where turn-around time is particularly critical.

Finally, hopefully pilots will ALWAYS use marshallers when backing up!

Here are a couple more videos of the APU-based Green-Taxi system:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-gb2_yZW8U[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMhwC_hpaf8[/youtube]

RegGuheert said:

The question I have is how much of the savings will be lost due to the added weight increasing fuel burn. The EGTS adds 300 kg to the landing gear plus additional weight for control electronics, batteries and cabling. Perhaps 500 kg total. If you also need to add a fuel cell and H2 storage tanks, perhaps you are talking about another 100 kg. With the next-generation A320 and B737 being capable of legs approaching 4000 nm, I wonder if this type of system will only be installed on planes which will fly shorter segments where turn-around time is particularly critical.

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My estimate of 600 kg was not too far off. This article indicates it will be more like 700 kg. But EasyJet thinks it can save 50,000 tonnes of fuel per year if they upgrade all their planes. OTOH, this article gives me the impression that EasyJet is really just kicking the can down the road on this one. Instead of going with EGTS' or WheelTug's off-the-shelf systems, it sounds like they are teaming up with a university instead. :?: Seriously, that will NOT get them to a certified solution, so I suspect this is all a bit of greenwashing.

I think I'll wait for an real announcement from a company which is ACTUALLY adopting an electric taxiing system for their fleet.

Edit:
The Guardian included a block diagram in their article:



It looks like they also want to put photovoltaic panels on the roof as. Somehow I image neither the PV nor the fuel cell will make it into the final solution. It would be best to implement the electric taxiing and eventually replace the APU with a better solution when one comes along.

TonyWilliams said:

I'd love to see the math on this.

Let's assume the a typical workhorse aircraft like the B737-800 at 180,000 pounds (81646.627 kilograms) max ramp weight.

How much horsepower is required to accelerate from a standing stop with a slushy taxiway, uphill (how much, I don't know) into a headwind with the tires at their lowest permitted tire pressure ?

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I have always thought a catapult system for the take off would be far more efficient. Similar to an aircraft carrier. Besides it could be electrically powered from the grid

smkettner said:

TonyWilliams said:

I'd love to see the math on this.

Let's assume the a typical workhorse aircraft like the B737-800 at 180,000 pounds (81646.627 kilograms) max ramp weight.

How much horsepower is required to accelerate from a standing stop with a slushy taxiway, uphill (how much, I don't know) into a headwind with the tires at their lowest permitted tire pressure ?

Click to expand...

I have always thought a catapult system for the take off would be far more efficient. Similar to an aircraft carrier. Besides it could be electrically powered from the grid

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How do you abort?

TonyWilliams said:

smkettner said:

TonyWilliams said:

I'd love to see the math on this.

Let's assume the a typical workhorse aircraft like the B737-800 at 180,000 pounds (81646.627 kilograms) max ramp weight.

How much horsepower is required to accelerate from a standing stop with a slushy taxiway, uphill (how much, I don't know) into a headwind with the tires at their lowest permitted tire pressure ?

Click to expand...

I have always thought a catapult system for the take off would be far more efficient. Similar to an aircraft carrier. Besides it could be electrically powered from the grid

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How do you abort?

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The same way you do now. A bigger issue is the extra weight, cost, and maintenance issues of strengthening the a/c for catapulting, not to mention the liability issues for customers who have heart attacks etc. due to the acceleration of the cat shot, even allowing for the fact that the cat stroke could be much longer and lower accel than is the case on board an aircraft carrier. Catapults just aren't going to happen commercially. Even modest ski jumps would require some structural beefing up, as well as imposing obstacles on approach; aircraft carriers can always turn into the wind, so only the departure end needs the ski jump.

Via ievs:

Suzuki Intends To Commercialize Hydrogen Fuel Cell Motorcycles

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http://insideevs.com/suzuki-intends-to-commercialize-hydrogen-fuel-cell-motorcycles/

Suzuki joins the hydrogen fuel cell alliance and intends to introduce FCV motorcycles and scooters in the near future.

Tests on public roads in Japan are expected to begin in 2016, and the government is working on safety standards to secure hydrogen tanks in case of accidents. . . .

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TonyWilliams said:

smkettner said:

TonyWilliams said:

I'd love to see the math on this.

Let's assume the a typical workhorse aircraft like the B737-800 at 180,000 pounds (81646.627 kilograms) max ramp weight.

How much horsepower is required to accelerate from a standing stop with a slushy taxiway, uphill (how much, I don't know) into a headwind with the tires at their lowest permitted tire pressure ?

Click to expand...

I have always thought a catapult system for the take off would be far more efficient. Similar to an aircraft carrier. Besides it could be electrically powered from the grid

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How do you abort?

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i-phone app

You can't abort with the steam catapult launch it goes from 0 to 100 mph in about a second or two.

People don't have to have heart attacks you just limit the acceleration.

I am thinking more of a linear motor such as the Disneyland California Screamin' ride.
Easy emergency shut down afaik.

TonyWilliams said:

You can't abort with the steam catapult launch it goes from 0 to 100 mph in about a second or two.

People don't have to have heart attacks you just limit the acceleration.

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The acceleration of any catapult is determined by the required end speed and the length of the cat shot. Lengthening the shot for a given end speed lowers the acceleration. Of course, heart attacks aren't the only issue, there's also whiplash injuries etc.

Unlike on a ship there's nothing that requires the end speed on land to be >= Vs; the cat can be used just to get the a/c moving from rest up to some intermediate speed, where turbofan engines are more efficient at turning thrust into power than they are when static or at low speeds. Aborts can be handled normally, given the longer remaining runway available for a given V1, owing to the more rapid acceleration to that point. Realistically, though, catapulting just isn't going to happen with commercial airliners, and certainly not using steam (let along hydraulic) cats, as the acceleration isn't even. EMALS allows the acceleration to be controlled much more evenly, but even there the weight, cost and complexity disadvantages outweigh the benefits.

Via GCC:

First UAV test flight with Cella solid-state hydrogen storage and fuel-cell power system

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02/first-uav-test-flight-with-cella-solid-state-hydrogen-storage-and-fuel-cell-power-system.html

The Scottish Association for Marine Science (SAMS) recently completed a UAV test flight using Cella Energy’s hydrogen-based power system. The system is based on Cella’s solid, nanostructured chemical hydride hydrogen storage material which is capable of releasing large quantities of hydrogen when heated. . . .

Cella designed and built a gas generator using this material, which when combined with a fuel cell, creates electrical power. The complete system—Cella gas generator along with a fuel cell supplied and integrated by Arcola Energy—is considerably lighter than the lithium-ion battery it replaced. . . .

• "This flight used a small prototype system and we were pleased with the initial flight with another flight scheduled to take place in the near future. The larger versions of this system that we are already designing will have three times the energy of a lithium-ion battery of the same weight. . . ."

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GRA said:

Via GCC:

First UAV test flight with Cella solid-state hydrogen storage and fuel-cell power system

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02/first-uav-test-flight-with-cella-solid-state-hydrogen-storage-and-fuel-cell-power-system.html

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Pretty cool stuff. It makes a lot more sense to store hydrogen in a solid material than to use high-pressure tanks. Of course, there are chemical reactions involved, so the efficiency is low and the cost is high, just like every other form of hydrogen.

Cella Energy said:

Technically Cella’s material is based on a chemical hydride which means it has excellent performance but it requires a chemical process to recycle it back to its pristine state.

Our scientists and engineers are working hard with chemical industry partners to take the known recycling methods and scale them into a cost effective industrial process.

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Li-ion battery technology, by way of contrast, is extremely efficient and inexpensive to recharge because there are no chemical reactions. Instead, lithium ions simply move from the anode the the cathode and back again. As such, it will be used for the lion's share of transportation applications so that we will not cause excessive damage to our environment by building 3X the energy infrastructure.

Hydrogen will be used only in those applications where LI-ion cannot be used. We have detailed those types of applications starting on page one of this thread.

Via GCC:

Riversimple revealing engineering prototype of its 1st H2 fuel cell road car on Wednesday

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02/20160216-riversimple.html

Riversimple (earlier post) will reveal the engineering prototype of its first hydrogen-powered road on Wednesday, 17 February. Riversimple is a consortium member of SWARM (Demonstration of Small 4-wheel fuel cell passenger vehicle Applications in Regional and Municipal transport). . . .

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Follow-on to yesterday's post, via GCC:

Riversimple introduces Rasa prototype two-seater fuel cell vehicle; 300 miles on 1.5kg H2; production version in 2018

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02/20160217-riversimple.html

. . . Riversimple plans to offer the car to motorists through a “sale-of-service” model. For a fixed monthly fee and mileage allowance, similar in expenditure to leasing and running a new family-sized hatchback, the company will cover all repair, maintenance, insurance and fuel expenses. Customers will simply exchange or return the car at the end of the ownership period. . . .

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Curb weight 1,279 lb. (580 kg.), top speed 60 mph, 8.5 kW (11 hp) fork lift fuel cell, ultracaps for regen and accel. Juging by the single side photo, it's a mismash of style elements - the rear fender sort of screams Gen. 1 Insight, while the cabin roofline puts me in mind of an Audi TT. The nose looks sort of Miata-ish, but appears to be flanked by what I assume are intakes for radiators to cool the stack and electronics.

[Edit} Another article on the Rasa from ABG, includes a short video: http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/17/riversimple-rasa-hydrogen-dream-uk/

Man, it's ugly - it give me a 'car of the future' vibe ala' Woody Allen's "Sleeper" - even the dogs (in the video) seem frightened by it :lol: See https://www.google.com/search?q=sleeper+woody+allen+cars&rlz=1CASMAD_enUS680US680&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjv6_P2-__KAhVHxGMKHT6KDCgQsAQIHA&biw=1280&bih=689

Another FC UAV, via GCC:

New solid hydrogen-on-demand fuel cell from HES Energy Systems flies UAV for record 6 hours

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02/20160218-hes.html

A consortium of Singaporean institutions and private sector companies including HES Energy Systems, ST Aerospace, DSO National Laboratories, and the Future Systems and Technology Directorate of Singapore’s Ministry of Defense, have worked jointly to achieve a record 6-hour endurance, 300km flight on the Skyblade 360 UAV built in Singapore by ST Aerospace. . . .

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Also GCC:

DOE requesting information on critical energy materials, including fuel cell platinum group metal catalysts

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02/20160218-doe.html

The US Department of Energy (DOE) has released a Request for Information (RFI) on critical materials in the energy sector, including fuel cell platinum group metal catalysts. The RFI is soliciting feedback from industry, academia, research laboratories, government agencies, and other stakeholders on issues related to the demand, supply, opportunities for developing substitutes, and potential for using materials more efficiently in the energy sector. . . .

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Via ABG:

Daimler chief sees electric cars beating hydrogen, for now

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http://www.autoblog.com/2016/02/21/daimler-zetsche-electric-vehicles-hydrogen/

Daimler may be hedging its bets with work on both electric and hydrogen fuel cell cars, but it sees a front runner emerging. In a chat with Euro am Sonntag, company chief Dieter Zetsche says he believes EVs are "more likely" to come out on top. Simply put, he believes the electric camp has more answers. EVs with long range and fast charging are "within reach," while it's still not clear how you'll make hydrogen both cheap and widely available. That doesn't mean that fuel cells are out – however, their future isn't looking good. . . .

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[Added]I can't remember if I've previously linked this - it sounds familiar.

A portfolio of power-trains for Europe:
a fact-based analysis
The role of Battery Electric Vehicles, Plug-in
Hybrids and Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles

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http://www.europeanclimate.org/documents/Power_trains_for_Europe.pdf

Two more newish reports of ways to convert CO2:
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02/20160229-audi.html
http://www.greencarcongress.com/201...t-co2-and-h2o-directly-into-renewable-li.html
Maybe not applicable to this H2 thread, but here is a quote from inside the last link:

Hydrogen produced via the water-splitting reaction (WSR) … is arguably the easiest to produce and stores the most energy on a mass basis (kJ/kg); however, it is not a particularly attractive replacement fuel for transportation, due to technological issues with low-volume energy density, safe storage, and transportation.

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I wasn't sure where to put the above info, but it seems appropriate due to my previous ruminations:
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744&p=442373&hilit=audi#p442373

Reddy said:

Reddy said:

...Finally, when all other options have been exhausted (Kind of a use it or lose it option), then we go to chemical storage (e.g., H2, CH4, EtOH, MeOH, or larger molecules). Here's are some examples, I can't seem to find the German example of electricity to fuel: http://energytransition.de/2013/06/power-to-gas-competitiveness/
http://biomassmagazine.com/articles...es-delivers-renewable-gasoline-sample-to-audi.
H2 is likely much simpler and cleaner than any carbon-based except CH4.

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OK, I found the article that I was thinking about: http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/07/20150715-egas.html
Pretty cool stuff, and qualified NOW for stabilizing the grid when excess renewable is present. Furthermore, here's another article on generating H2 in a similar fashion, although more feasibility study than a full-fledged operating plant. http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015/12/20151208-powercell.html

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Via GCC:

Loop Energy wins $7.5M from SDTC to support battery/fuel cell powertrains for heavy-duty trucks

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160304-loop.html

Loop Energy—formerly known as PowerDisc Development—has been awarded a $7.5-million grant from Sustainable Development Technology Canada (SDTC) to accelerate deployment of the company’s new zero-emission powertrain for heavy-duty trucks. . . .

Loop says that its powertrain is ideally suited for urban freight applications, such as yard trucks and delivery trucks operating at commercial distribution centres, and drayage trucks operating at ports. The SDTC grant will accelerate the deployment of the Loop system in Class 8 trucks built by Peterbilt that will be put to work at a customer location. . . .

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Also GCC:

NHTSA proposes updating electrical safety requirements for fuel cell and mild hybrid vehicles; alignment with int’l standards

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160304-nhtsa.html

. . .The NPRM proposes adding an optional method for post-crash electrical safety into the standard, FMVSS No. 305, that involves physical barriers to prevent electric shock due to direct or indirect contact of high voltage sources. This proposed optional method affords the same level of electric shock protection as the other methods for electrical safety currently in FMVSS No. 305 and would enable innovative powertrain technologies. The proposed updates to FMVSS No. 305 align the standard with international regulations and the latest version of the voluntary industry standard, SAE J1766, “Recommended Practice for Electric and Hybrid Electric Vehicle Battery Systems Crash Integrity Testing”. . . .

NHTSA said that the effect of the proposal would be to enable wider use of hydrogen fuel cell and mild hybrid vehicles. Toyota Motor North America and the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers had submitted separate petitions for rulemaking seeking to update the standard to enable innovative powertrain systems. . . .

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Also GCC:

H2 Logic delivers 9th H2 fueling station for Denmark; 100% renewable hydrogen, 1st country-wide station network

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http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160304-h2logic.html

. . . The station in Kolding is the third to open in Denmark during the past six months, and in total the ninth public accessible hydrogen station in 24/7 operation throughout Denmark.

Additional H2Stations are planned during 2016 which will ensure that 50% of Danish population will have less than 15 kilometers to hydrogen fueling. . . .

Hydrogen for the Kolding station is delivered from a central electrolyzer plant . . . . The entire Danish hydrogen station network is based entirely on hydrogen produced from electrolysis and electricity procured with CO2 certificates. This ensures a 100% sustainable and zero emission hydrogen supply—the highest share in the world for an entire station network. . . .

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