Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[RegGuheert]

Here is a company in Australia developing a new way to extract H2 from natural gas without emitting CO2:

The Hazer Process creates clean hydrogen and high quality graphite
At the core of its technology, the Hazer Process utilises unprocessed iron ore as a low cost catalyst to “crack” natural gas to produce clean hydrogen and high-quality graphite.
The Hazer Process
The Hazer Process enables the effective conversion of natural gas, and similar feedstocks, into hydrogen and high quality graphite, using iron ore as a process catalyst. The aim of the Hazer Process will be to achieve savings for the hydrogen producer, as well as providing 'clean' hydrogen (i.e. with significant lower production of carbon dioxide emissions), enabling such hydrogen to be used in a range of developing 'clean energy' applications, as well as in large existing chemical processing industries. The graphite produced by the Hazer Process is high purity (>90%wt), highly crystalline 'synthetic' graphite. The Hazer Process can be tailored to create a range of graphite morphologies, potentially enabling Hazer to target multiple specialised markets and end user applications.

Like all sources of H2 out there, this one likely will not be affordable.

 

[mtndrew1]

In case anyone's curious, Toyota sold all of fifteen Mirai for December 2015, so sales have slowed to less than half of November's rate for the car's weakest performance yet.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5419

 

[Firetruck41]

In case anyone's curious, Toyota sold all of fifteen Mirai for December 2015, so sales have slowed to less than half of November's rate for the car's weakest performance yet.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5419

Finishing the year at a blistering pace!

 

[GRA]

In case anyone's curious, Toyota sold all of fifteen Mirai for December 2015, so sales have slowed to less than half of November's rate for the car's weakest performance yet.

http://pressroom.toyota.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=5419

Station commissioning is definitely lagging, and that's caused at least some people to bail out of their reservations, judging by posts on the mytoyotamirai.com forum. Very frustrating for the people who want one. They're up to six full retail sites now per CAFCP, although their map's usually out of date. They still don't show any open in the Bay Area. I went by my local station a few days ago, and didn't see any changes - it appears to be complete, but remains unopened.

 

[GRA]

Via GCR:

Tax Credit For Hydrogen Fuel-Cell Vehicles Extended By Budget Deal

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1101698_tax-credit-for-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-extended-by-budget-deal

This credit expired at the end of 2014, and the manufacturers have been paying the difference themselves, so this should help them reduce their losses. It's been extended through thend of 2016.

. . . In addition to the renewed tax credit, the spending bill also calls for the creation of alternative-fuel corridors on major highways--including provisions for hydrogen fueling stations, as well as electric-car charging stations and natural gas and propane fueling.

Corridors will be chosen based on perceived demand for the infrastructure, strategic importance of the stretch of highway in question, and the amount of pre-existing charging and fueling infrastructure.

The legislation requires the U.S. Department of Transportation to designate corridors by December 2016, with updates and re-designations every five years.

Once a corridor is designated, officials will draft plans to install charging and fueling stations along its route.

Renewal of the fuel-cell tax credit and the potential growth in fueling infrastructure that could come from the corridor initiative will occur as fuel-cell car deliveries gradually increase.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... as well as providing 'clean' hydrogen (i.e. with significant lower production of carbon dioxide emissions), enabling such hydrogen to be used in a range of developing 'clean energy' applications...

Like all sources of H2 out there, this one likely will not be affordable.

Not zero CO2... "lower". Like "clean coal" and "clean diesel", I suspect. More PR about green, when the real benefit is cheaper, but not anywhere near competitive to electricity from renewable sources.

 

[TonyWilliams]

They're up to six full retail sites now per CAFCP, although their map's usually out of date. They still don't show any open in the Bay Area. I went by my local station a few days ago, and didn't see any changes - it appears to be complete, but remains unopened.

With near zero commercial (profitable) business in providing fueling to a few dozen cars scattered throughout one state, and with projections to have "up to 3000" hydrogen cars in several years from two to three manufacturers (Toyota with a couple dozen, Hyundai pushing 100!!!!, and Honda on deck to light up the world with 22? so far), I predict that like the Blink / Ecotality fiasco, the only real revenue in hydrogen providers is government handouts for installations.

Even with Toyota, Hyundai and Honda paying for "free" hydrogen, the actual income to the hydrogen providers is a joke. Not enough cars forecast to pay for the hardware, the maintenance (10,000 psi pumps go out regularly, -25C refrigerant must be a maintenance and power hog), or pay for the huge footprint that it takes for all the equipment.

Therefore, if like Blink, they are paid for installations, that's exactly what you'll get. Doesn't mean they will work all the time, or have true benefit for the consumer (I guess a hydrogen driver who can't fuel at home would be pretty desperate, and take anything, even low pressure / half range at 3500 psi).

This entire hydrogen game is very quickly becoming moot. Many of the early hydrogen car owners are (not surprisingly) in the hydrogen business. The ones that aren't... are complaining.

The reveals of real mass market EVs, the GM Bolt a few days ago, and Tesla Model 3 in two months, and likely a 200 mile Nissan LEAF with 60kWh battery in the near future, plus others, are going to push these fossil fuel polluting / CO2 spewing boutique, expensive and not to mention grossly impracticle hydrogen cars to an early grave, where they belong.

Not to mention, now with over ten thousand quick charge locations in the world, and with literally millions of other locations to find electricity, and hundreds (plural) or thousands of EVs out ON THE ROAD, the hydrogen game is very quickly looking like the disaster that was nearly planned to happen. Well, disaster to the environment and tax payer... not so much for the graft that hydrogen providers will receive in dollars.

 

[finman100]

what Tony said.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC, with my usual caveat about the difference between lab results and commercialization:

New efficient electrolysis process for direct hydrogen production from biomass; 16.7% of energy required for water electrolysis

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/01/20160209-gatech.html

 

[user 10599]

Yeah I think Tony is right. While I really liked the Mirai when I drove it and can conceive of it being successfully deployed if a lot of things went the right way for it, it realistically isn't going to get there. My willingness to consider it as an early adopter requires certain stations to be up and running. And my interest goes away completely once decent, affordable BEVs with 150+ mile range are available. And that will likely happen before they get enough stations up and running. I think my current daily commuter ICE will last me until 2018, which should hopefully see a number of good options. Shoot, if I had to bite the financial bullet and replace it now, I could make the i3 or Volt work. And I think I would go those routes before the hydrogen choice. But I'd really prefer a 200+ mile Leaf, B, eGolf or a plug-in C350 if the BEVs don't have the range I need by then.

 

[finman100]

Actually there are hundreds of thousands of people who are right...current BEV drivers around the world! The fool-cell nonsense is backed by 73 people...okay let's round up to 100.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Lexus brings all-wheel drive hydrogen fuel cell LF-FC flagship concept to Detroit

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/01/20160112-lexus.html

. . . In his speech about the newly revealed Lexus LC 500 production model, Toyota Motor Corporation President and Lexus Chief Branding Officer Akio Toyoda said that the company is committed to having a fuel cell car in the Lexus lineup around 2020. . . .

Also GCC:

Powertech’s H2 fueling station increases number of fills

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/01/20160111-powertech.html

I wasn't aware that there were any public H2 fueling stations in BC, as I thought they were all for bus fleets and the like, and also wasn't aware that any FCEVs were available yet for sale/lease to the public in Canada:

British Columbia—based Powertech Labs’ hydrogen fueling station, located onsite at the company’s headquarters, has increased the number of vehicles that it services. The station, the only 70 MPa fast-fill hydrogen fueling station in Canada, currently meets the fueling needs for Mercedes-Benz and Hyundai fuel cell electric vehicles, with a total of 9 vehicles using the station.

Since 1 February 2015, the station has dispensed more than 900 kilograms of hydrogen, and has seen more than 500 vehicle fills. Since July 30, as more cars were brought online, usage has more than doubled. Over the past 10 months, the station has had only three days of downtime.

Powertech’s station is self-serve with PIN access, and is open Monday to Friday. The station provides electrolyzer-produced hydrogen, and is capable of 70 MPa and 35 MPa dispensing.

So, 3 days out of ~ 300 equals 99% availability, although as it's at the headquarters of the company that makes the stations, I'm sure that any maintenance/repair issues get dealt with promptly, so it's likely unrepresentative of field MTBF/MTTR. 900kg/500 fills equals a little under 2 kg./fill, so people are clearly maintaining large reserves in case the station goes down. 500 fills over ~ 330 days = 1.52 fills/day, so usage is still pretty light (not surprising given the small number of vehicles using it).

And one more show concept car, via ievs:

Audi H-tron Quattro Concept At 2016 NAIAS

http://insideevs.com/audi-h-tron-quattro-concept-at-2016-naias/

I generally don't bother posting links about concept cars unless it looks almost definite to make it to production, but thought I'd make an exception in this case, just because it's yellow :lol: :

. . . Audi h-tron quattro concept is all-wheel-drive using two motors (one per axle) for a total of 230 kW of peak power (90 kW front and 140 kW rear). That’s enough to accelerate to 100 km/h (62 mph) in less than 7 seconds.

Total range using three hydrogen tanks stands at 600 kilometers (372.8 mi), which isn’t that much more than the upcoming high-end all-electric models (e-tron quattro is to be rated at 500 km/310 miles). We should note there is no test cycle information for range on the FCV. The advantage for hydrogen however could be 4 minutes to refuel the tanks – if the infrastructure ever becomes readily available. . . .

 

[GRA]

Via GCC, more technical details of the h-tron concept:

Audi unveils h-tron quattro fuel cell SUV concept at Detroit; MLB evo platform

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/01/20160113-htronquattro.html

Via ievs.com:

Hyundai Planning New Dedicated Fuel Cell SUV

http://insideevs.com/hyundai-planning-new-dedicated-fuel-cell-suv/

 

[GRA]

X-posted here and in the Mirai topic.

Via ievs.com:

Toyota To Select Dealers: Stop Delivering The Mirai, There Is Nowhere To Refuel

http://insideevs.com/toyota-to-selected-dealers-stop-delivering-mirai-there-is-no-where-to-refuel/

Station commissioning is lagging badly. I don't know if it's getting final permits, missing parts or what, but my local station has appeared complete for over a month now, and last I checked still wasn't open. It's new expected opening date is Jan. 30th. It was originally supposed to open by 10/31, which was changed to Q4, then 12/31 IIRR. Given that it's scheduled to open after several other stations which also aren't yet in service, I expect they may also be in limbo.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... trucks with hydrogen using Linde’s equipment takes an operator less than three minutes, compared with 15-20 minutes to change out a battery. Also, power levels and performance from fuel cells do not degrade over time, as they do with lead-acid batteries.

Tesla can change a HUUUUuuuuuuge battery in a car in 94 seconds, and I can change the batteries in my power tools in 10 seconds, but a centralized fork lift operation takes 15-20 minutes per vehicle. Naturally, like almost every hydrogen bullshit story that I ever read, the "facts" don't pass any basic logic.

1) Fork lifts *could* be designed to swap the battery in seconds, without the operator ever touching them. Even hauling individual modules that weigh 25 pounds each would only take a few minutes, max.

2) Comparing anything to lead-acid batteries is nearly silly

3) Yes, Virginia, fuel cells degrade... as do ALL batteries

The reality is that a proper, modern lithium cell battery fork lift with cells designed to be easily swapped would work quite well, and likely be cheaper and less dangerous.

I wonder what happens when somebody shows up at a warehouse with leaking hydrogen (colorless and odorless) and flips a light switch?

 

[GRA]

... trucks with hydrogen using Linde’s equipment takes an operator less than three minutes, compared with 15-20 minutes to change out a battery. Also, power levels and performance from fuel cells do not degrade over time, as they do with lead-acid batteries.

Tesla can change a HUUUUuuuuuuge battery in a car in 94 seconds, and I can change the batteries in my power tools in 10 seconds, but a centralized fork lift operation takes 15-20 minutes per vehicle. Naturally, like almost every hydrogen bullshit story that I ever read, the "facts" don't pass any basic logic.

1) Fork lifts *could* be designed to swap the battery in seconds, without the operator ever touching them. Even hauling individual modules that weigh 25 pounds each would only take a few minutes, max.

2) Comparing anything to lead-acid batteries is nearly silly

3) Yes, Virginia, fuel cells degrade... as do ALL batteries

The reality is that a proper, modern lithium cell battery fork lift with cells designed to be easily swapped would work quite well, and likely be cheaper and less dangerous.

I wonder what happens when somebody shows up at a warehouse with leaking hydrogen (colorless and odorless) and flips a light switch?

Oops, my previous post re forklifts be should have been posted in the H2 & Fuel cell thread. Can a mod move it, Tony's reply and my reply to him?

Tony, how much does Tesla's swapping bay cost? Swapping and hauling individual modules - you've got to be kidding. I don't know about your experience working in warehouses with MHE, but in a previous life mine was quite extensive, and that's just not an option - it generally takes a minimum of 5 minutes to swap a single propane tank (roughly 25 lb.) because you have to turn it off, unscrew it, remove it, get an hand truck to move it which may not be handy, wheel it to the fuel station, exchange it, wheel it back, install and connect the hose, turn it on. An individual battery module would be at least that heavy and cumbersome and require most of the same actions not to mention susceptible to damage from mishandling. And then there's the connections that have to be made, correctly, between individual modules.

So, while you certainly could swap Li-ion battery packs, it will always take a lot longer (barring multiple expensive and likely maintenance intensive swapping stations) than refueling with gaseous or liquid fuel.

H2 leaks? All liquid and gaseous fuels are stored outside, per code. Tank swaps can be done anywhere, although I suspect that fueling by hose would be the norm with H2 (I've used both methods with propane forklifts).

As to leaks, given the rapid dissipation of H2 and the amount of air circulation in the typical warehouse, I very much doubt you could ever build up the necessary concentration of H2; certainly, even in much more enclosed areas in tests (which I posted in the H2 thread a while back) it was essentially impossible. Apparently the permitting authorities agree.

 

[GRA]

Station commissioning is lagging badly. I don't know if it's getting final permits, missing parts or what, but my local station has appeared complete for over a month now, and last I checked still wasn't open. It's new expected opening date is Jan. 30th. It was originally supposed to open by 10/31, which was changed to Q4, then 12/31 IIRR. Given that it's scheduled to open after several other stations which also aren't yet in service, I expect they may also be in limbo.

The first Bay Area station has now opened, in San Jose. Along with a couple of others it was scheduled for Jan. 31st, so this is encouraging. They're behind, but moving. Maybe I should start a Fuel Cell station thread, so I can track those ala' the Tesla SC thread. I could at least compare which of them has been further behind their announced schedules! :lol:

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Report: Honda and GM to build fuel cell plant, mass production by 2025

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/01/report-honda-and-gm-to-build-fuel-cell-plant-mass-production-by-2025.html

The Asahi Shimbun reports that will set up a factory for the joint manufacture of automotive fuel cells, with production beginning by 2025 at the latest. . . .

The report cited a senior Honda official as saying that by cutting costs with General Motors, Honda hopes to increase its FCV production capacity to help achieve the Japan government’s goal of having fuel cell vehicles cost-competitive with gasoline by 2025. . . .

 

[GRA]

Via Autocar:

Mercedes-Benz GLC to get hydrogen fuel cell power next year

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mercedes-benz-glc-get-hydrogen-fuel-cell-power-next-year

Mercedes Benz is on course to launch its first production hydrogen fuel cell-powered car next year, according to R&D chief Dr Thomas Weber.

In an interview at the Detroit motor show, Weber . . . [revealed] that the new production model would be a version of the full-size GLC SUV, featuring "the newest fuel cell technology available". . . . The hardware required to generate electric power from hydrogen has been significantly reduced in size in recent times, he said, and the new hydrogen Mercedes would reflect the fact.

He also said that the still-high cost of the stack made them commercially viable for now only at the upper end of the market. Priced around 50,000 GBP, or about $71k currently.

Via GCC:

PowerCell Sweden receives 1st order for 100 kW PowerCell S3 prototype fuel cell stack for automotive application

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/mercedes-benz-glc-get-hydrogen-fuel-cell-power-next-year

Fuel cell company PowerCell Sweden AB has received a first order for a prototype of a 100 kW PowerCell S3 fuel cell stack from a European company that will use it in an automotive application. . . .

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Ballard signs $12M agreement for 15 kW fuel cell stacks for commercial bus range-extenders in China

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/01/20160122-ballard.html

Ballard Power Systems signed an Equipment Supply Agreement (ESA), valued at $12 million, with Guangdong Synergy Hydrogen Power Technology Co., Ltd. (Synergy) to provide FCvelocity-9SSL fuel cell stacks for use in commercial buses in China. Ballard expects to deliver the stacks in 2016 and 2017. . . .

Ballard’s FCvelocity–9SSL fuel cell stack is a derivative of its work in automotive fuel cell technology. The stack, which offers scalable power output from 4kW to 22kW, is liquid cooled for high durability and is rated at a 10,000 hour lifetime.

The FCvelocity-9SSL fuel cell stack is widely deployed in Plug Power’s line of GenDrive fuel cell systems for electric lift trucks. In addition, this fuel cell stack product is integrated into Ballard’s FCvelocity-HD7 motive module to power transit buses and light rail vehicles.

CAFCP's website now shows the Costa Mesa fueling station open, so 8 full retail stations in the state: 5 in SoCal, 1 in the San Joaquin Valley, 1 in the Sacramento area, and one in the Bay Area.