Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Tottori Prefecture, Tottori Gas, Sekisui House and Honda cooperate in hydrogen demonstration; smart house and FCV

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/01/20160125-honda.html

. . . This will be Japan’s first case where hydrogen energy will be utilized through the integration of a hydrogen station which creates hydrogen from renewable energy, a smart house and a fuel cell vehicle (FCV).

The purpose of this project is to promote the popularization of smart houses and FCVs. The project will install, for the first time on the Sea of Japan side of the archipelago, a Smart Hydrogen Station (SHS) using Honda’s high-differential-pressure electrolyzer that supplies hydrogen created by electrolysis of water using renewable energy. Honda will also supply its new Clarity fuel cell vehicle. . . .

Also GCC:

DOE announces SBIR/STTR FY16 Phase 1 Release 1 awards; four for fuel cell membrane development

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/01/20160128-sbir.html

The US Department of Energy (DOE) announced the 2016 Small Business Innovation Research and Small Business Technology Transfer (SBIR/STTR) Phase I Release 1 Awards, including four projects focused on durable and inexpensive polymer electrolyte membranes (PEM) for transportation and stationary fuel cell applications. . . .

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

DOE announces $1M H2 Refuel H-Prize Competition finalist: SimpleFuel

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/01/20160130-hprize.html

. . . SimpleFuel was selected by an independent judging panel and will have until July 2016 to deploy their small scale, on-site hydrogen generation and fueling system and prepare it for testing.

SimpleFuel plans to develop a home scale refueler that can provide a 1-kilogram fill to vehicles in 15 minutes at 700 bar using hydrogen produced via electrolysis, with a design that minimizes setback distances and reduces the physical footprint of the system. . . .

 

[smkettner]

I will be very interested on how much electricity this home system takes to make 100 miles of H2 and put it in the vehicle at 700bar.
Need to check back in August when it is operating.

 

[GRA]

I will be very interested on how much electricity this home system takes to make 100 miles of H2 and put it in the vehicle at 700bar.
Need to check back in August when it is operating.

The demo is supposed to last from July-October, after which they'll analyze the data, so I think you'll need to wait beyond August.

 

[smkettner]

I have plenty of time. Thanks for tracking this.

 

[user 10599]

Sounds like it would be a good step forward if they are able to develop a viable home fueling option. But I will wait and see on that.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Technavio forecasts 45% CAGR in automotive fuel cell market through 2019

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/01/20160131-technavio.html

As always with forecasts, add salt to taste.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

New UMTRI paper reviews major advantages and disadvantages of battery-electric and fuel-cell vehicles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02/20160201-umtri.html

A new report from the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute (UMTRI) reviews the major advantages and disadvantages associated with battery-electric vehicles (BEVs) and fuel-cell vehicles (FCVs). The team of Brandon Schoettle and Dr. Michael Sivak also includes information for current gasoline-powered internal combustion engines as a baseline comparison. . . .

 

[RegGuheert]

Via GCC:

New UMTRI paper reviews major advantages and disadvantages of battery-electric and fuel-cell vehicles

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02/20160201-umtri.html

I find it interesting that these researchers think BEVs use more well-to-wheels petroleum per mile than FCVs. That's an incredible stretch, considering that most of the hydrogen will come from petroleum.

 

[GRA]

Most of the H2 will come from NG, not petroleum.

 

[RegGuheert]

Most of the H2 will come from NG, not petroleum.

Ahh. Very clever. They wouldn't want everyone to realize that these cars are fueled by fossil fuels just like almost all of the other cars on the road.

What else would we expect from Michigan?

 

[GRA]

Most of the H2 will come from NG, not petroleum.

Ahh. Very clever. They wouldn't want everyone to realize that these cars are fueled by fossil fuels just like almost all of the other cars on the road.

What else would we expect from Michigan?

The footnote indicates they used ANL's GREET model to makes the calcs. ANL's in Illinois,and GREET's used by everyone: https://greet.es.anl.gov/ The abstract, found here, http://www.umich.edu/~umtriswt/PDF/UMTRI-2016-5_Abstract_English.pdf states that the POl usage/mile depends on how the H2 is produced (natch). Unfortunately, the actual report isn't yet up on SWT's website, so we can't see the calcs and assumptions yet. The most recent report that's available is from October, so it looks like we'd need to wait until April or May for it to be up. I'll try to remember to check it and post a link then, so we can dig into the details.

 

[RegGuheert]

The footnote indicates they used ANL's GREET model to makes the calcs.

Then so much for GREET. It seems to be completely disingenuous when claiming that FCVs use 1% as much petroleum as ICEVs when they likely will use about half as much fossil fuel as the ICEVs.

Lies of omission are still lies.

 

[user 10599]

Thanks for posting that neat chart Reg. That was a pretty good way to assess the options.

 

[GRA]

The footnote indicates they used ANL's GREET model to makes the calcs.

Then so much for GREET. It seems to be completely disingenuous when claiming that FCVs use 1% as much petroleum as ICEVs when they likely will use about half as much fossil fuel as the ICEVs.

Lies of omission are still lies.

Since we don't know what assumptions were made, assuming that omissions were made at a level that rises to lying strikes me as premature, to say the least.

 

[RegGuheert]

Since we don't know what assumptions were made, assuming that omissions were made at a level that rises to lying strikes me as premature, to say the least.

Please.

They made the chart. Why talk about petroleum consumption and not the consumption of ALL fossil fuels? Where's the parallel entry for natural gas consumption? Guess what? It's not there. Why? Because FCVs will be the largest consumers of natural gas. Car manufacturers were never able to make ICEVs that are fueled by CNG successful. This is simply their next attempt to do that.

That's the big lie here: FCVs are simply a transition from petroleum to natural gas. In other words, they are a transition from one fossil fuel to another. That fact is concealed to try to foist them on the public in order to try to convince people that they are somehow better for the environment.

In reality, they are worse. The extra damage done to the environment during manufacture is not made up by efficiency gains over ICEVs.

Of course, BEVs are much better for the environment than either ICEVs or FCVs. This is the main fact which is being withheld because there are powerful vested interests who want to keep us buying their fuel from refueling stations which they control. Auto manufacturers such as Toyota see FCVs as a way to add to their market by adding refueling to their business model.

You can pretend not to see the obvious ruse, but I'll continue to point it out whenever it happens.

 

[GRA]

Since we don't know what assumptions were made, assuming that omissions were made at a level that rises to lying strikes me as premature, to say the least.

Please.

They made the chart. Why talk about petroleum consumption and not the consumption of ALL fossil fuels? Where's the parallel entry for natural gas consumption? Guess what? It's not there. Why? Because FCVs will be the largest consumers of natural gas. Car manufacturers were never able to make ICEVs that are fueled by CNG successful. This is simply their next attempt to do that.

See the WTW GHG figures, where the NG consumption would be accounted for. Car manufacturers have made CNG cars quite successful, but not in the U.S. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas_vehicle#Overview

That's the big lie here: FCVs are simply a transition from petroleum to natural gas. In other words, they are a transition from one fossil fuel to another. That fact is concealed to try to foist them on the public in order to try to convince people that they are somehow better for the environment.

Well no, Reg, while they can be just a transition from petroleum to NG, nothing requires that they must be (and California, as you are well aware, requires a 33% RFS standard for transportation H2, which will only increase as time goes on). Similarly, nothing requires that BEVs be recharged with renewably-produced electricity, and in China (to take one example), most electricity will be produced from coal.

In reality, they are worse. The extra damage done to the environment during manufacture is not made up by efficiency gains over ICEVs.

Of course, BEVs are much better for the environment than either ICEVs or FCVs. This is the main fact which is being withheld because there are powerful vested interests who want to keep us buying their fuel from refueling stations which they control. Auto manufacturers such as Toyota see FCVs as a way to add to their market by adding refueling to their business model.

You can pretend not to see the obvious ruse, but I'll continue to point it out whenever it happens.

You seriously believe that Toyota or any other car manufacturer wants to get into the fuel business?!?! Okay, if you really believe that then there's nothing more to discuss.

 

[RegGuheert]

You can pretend not to see the obvious ruse, but I'll continue to point it out whenever it happens.

You seriously believe that Toyota or any other car manufacturer wants to get into the fuel business?!?!

Toyota IS investing in hydrogen refueling infrastructure. Are they taking a stake in the companies in which they invest? It's not fully clear. Some of these stations ARE being built on Toyota property. That sounds amazingly like the McDonald's business model. Is that what Toyota is doing? I don't know, and neither do you. But the fact is that they are making these investments. Do you have any links to statements from Toyota that says they do not intend to make money on H2 infrastructure? Of course you don't. They are a corporation trying to grow revenues and profits. They would be foolish to ignore any possible revenue streams.

 

[GRA]

You can pretend not to see the obvious ruse, but I'll continue to point it out whenever it happens.

You seriously believe that Toyota or any other car manufacturer wants to get into the fuel business?!?!

Toyota IS investing in hydrogen refueling infrastructure. Are they taking a stake in the companies in which they invest? It's not fully clear. Some of these stations ARE being built on Toyota property. That sounds amazingly like the McDonald's business model. Is that what Toyota is doing? I don't know, and neither do you. But the fact is that they are making these investments. Do you have any links to statements from Toyota that says they do not intend to make money on H2 infrastructure? Of course you don't. They are a corporation trying to grow revenues and profits. They would be foolish to ignore any possible revenue streams.

Toyota is providing seed money to kick start H2 stations for the same reason that Tesla got into the Supercharger business - they are needed to make the cars viable (in Tesla's case, for inter-regional trips and bragging rights; in Toyota's case, so they can sell FCEVs). Toyota, Honda and Nissan have all said that H2 stations will operate in the red for years (IIRR they forecasted they might be able to drop subsidies around 2020), and that they're providing funds to get them over the hump. Here's an example: http://phys.org/news/2015-07-toyota-nissan-honda-hydrogen-stations.html

Toyota has said much the same thing re the stations in California, although I can't find it offhand - I believe I posted it upthread, but it may have been in one of the state reports. So far, Toyota has loaned money to FirstElement (and presumably has a lien to make sure they come through), but doesn't appear to have invested in the company. The last thing auto companies want to do is get involved with fueling stations, where the profit margins are low (gas stations' profit comes from their convenience stores, and even so over the past decade thousands have gone out of business).

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

easyJet to trial electric taxi system in aircraft; H2 fuel cells, batteries and wheel motors

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/02/20160203-easyjet.html

European carrier easyJet plans to test an electric taxi system later this year that utilizes a hydrogen fuel cell stowed in the hold, batteries charged by regenerative braking, and electric wheel motors. The energy can then be used by the aircraft when taxiing without needing to use the jet engines. Due to the high frequency and short sector lengths of easyJet’s operations, around 4% of the airline’s total fuel consumed annually is used when the airline’s aircraft are taxiing. . . .