Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[finman100]

meaningless in the real world and a waste of time. yeah that sums it up nicely for FCEVs.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I fail to see how providing information to anyone who's interested in ALL types of EVs, not just BEVs, is spamming.

Let's check the title for the forum.

Discussion Forum for the Nissan LEAF EV

Is there any hint that Nissan might be bringing out a fuel cell LEAF?

I guess I missed that story.

Then why even have the "Non LEAF Discussions" section, under which this thread is appropriately filed?

 

[GRA]

<snip>
As for this record attempt, I hope they choose a more realistic speed. Although I forget the details, we already know that an FCEV can drive 350-400 miles in real world conditions (discussed upthread, although I can't be bothered to search for it), although that was a vehicle with a larger tank than is on the production Tucson/iX35 which will be used for the attempt. If they're going to do it, it would be nice if they at least averaged 40 mph or more.

Found what I was looking for. There's a discussion of some real world vs. spec FCEV ranges on pages 143-145 upthread, but here's the real-world FCEV range report I was thinking of: http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2014/03/f9/toyota_fchv-adv_range_verification.pdf

This was with a 2008 Toyota FCHV-ADV, with a generation or two older fuel cell than what's current. 331.5 miles driven in 11 hours in real California traffic, with a calculated 431 miles total range to empty. The current Tucson/ix35 cell has a power density of 1.65kW/L, and the Mirai's cell is 3kw/L. I'm surprised that they're using the ix35 rather than a Mirai for the attempt, as the latter is lighter and has lower drag. I do see that they're planning to do at least the long distance ( 6,000 miles + ) attempt on the M25 ring freeway around London.

[Edit]: AAArgh! I meant to quote a short part of my original reply while providing the link to the earlier range test, not edit the post. the rest of it's gone now.

 

[GRA]

I fail to see how providing information to anyone who's interested in ALL types of EVs, not just BEVs, is spamming.

Let's check the title for the forum.

Discussion Forum for the Nissan LEAF EV

Is there any hint that Nissan might be bringing out a fuel cell LEAF?

I guess I missed that story.

At what time does "providing information" (off topic) become spam? <snip>

Yes, you did miss that story, although I believe I provided a link to it upthread. [Edit] Found it: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=14744&start=3144

Here's another:

Nissan To Launch Fuel Cell Vehicle By 2021

http://www.hybridcars.com/nissan-to-launch-fuel-cell-vehicle-by-2021/

. . . In an interview with Automotive News during last week’s Tokyo Motor Show, Ghosn indicated FCVs are on the horizon, if not as soon as a projected date of by 2017 in the 2013 agreement.

Nissan now plans to have its FCV available to customers in “like four to five years,” according to Ghosn (pictured above with the Nissan IDS autonomous BEV concept). . . .

I guess you also missed that this sub-sub-forum is titled "Business, Economy and Politics", which, as GetOffYourGas pointed out, is located in the "Non-LEAF Discussions" sub-forum. This sub-sub-forum seems an appropriate place for it given all the heated discussion it engenders. I suppose it could be moved to "Other Electric cars and Plug-in Hybrids", which is where the threads for specific FCEVs are to be found, but as it's for general discussion of the topic rather than specific vehicles, this seems more appropriate. In any case, its location isn't up to me, as I'm not the OP or a mod.

 

[GRA]

Back to news, via GCC:

Daimler Buses to bring BEV and fuel cell buses to production standard and on the road by 2018

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160309-daimler.html

Daimler Buses said it plans to bring both the battery-electric Citaro E-CELL and the hydrogen-driven Citaro F-CELL to production standard and on the roads by 2018. The two buses are based on a joint E-Mobility platform. . . .

The fourth generation of fuel cell bus ready for series production will include rigid buses as well as articulated and large-capacity vehicles. Hydrogen consumption for the rigid vehicles will decrease to less than 10 kg/100 km, while availability will increase to more than 90%.

Also GCC:

Argonne LCA study finds many alternative fuels consume more water than petroleum and natural gas fuels

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160309-anl.html

Researchers at Argonne National Laboratory have analyzed the water consumption for transportation fuels in the United States using an extended lifecycle system boundary that includes the water embedded in intermediate processing steps.

In a paper published in the RSC journal Energy & Environmental Science, they compared the water consumed per unit energy and per km traveled in light-duty vehicles. . . The authors concluded that it will be important to consider the implications of transportation and energy policy changes on water resources in the future.

It's impossible to provide the details without extensive quoting or re-writing the article almost wholly, so you'll just have to click the link if you're interested. If I'm reading it correctly, CNG comes out best for water use.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Could we get off this tack? This is the appropriate thread for hydrogen posts, and/or links to articles about hydrogen.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

Wind H2

Toyota partners in making wind-power hydrogen for fuel cells - Chron.com
https://apple.news/AK5y0CabuRFeRW7NNJkQoxw

 

[GRA]

Wind H2

Toyota partners in making wind-power hydrogen for fuel cells - Chron.com
https://apple.news/AK5y0CabuRFeRW7NNJkQoxw

Here's GCC's version of the same story:

Japanese public-private partnership to test end-to-end H2 supply chain using wind power to begin this fall; 2nd-life hybrid batteries for ESS

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160314-tmc.html

A Japanese partnership comprising the Kanagawa Prefectural Government; the municipal governments of the cities of Yokohama and Kawasaki; Toyota; Toshiba; and Iwatani announced the forthcoming start of a four-year project to implement and evaluate an end-to-end low-carbon hydrogen supply chain which will use hydrogen produced from renewable energy to power forklifts. . . .

Also GCC:

Kawasaki Heavy and Shell to partner on technologies for transporting liquefied hydrogen by sea

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160314-khi.html

. . . Kawasaki is also currently developing a small test vessel for the marine transportation of liquefied hydrogen. (Earlier post.) The vessel will have a cargo capacity of 2,500 m3, equivalent to that of coastal trading LNG vessels.

Kawasaki obtained approval in principle . . . for the cargo containment system in 2013. Kawasaki aims to complete development design in 2016, then subsequently move forward with commercialization.

Liquefied hydrogen evaporates at a rate 10 times greater than LNG. To address this, the pioneering test vessel will employ a cargo containment system of a double shell structure for vacuum insulation, offering support that demonstrates excellent insulation performance and safety. . . .

Kawasaki's looking to eventually develop a 160,000m^3 LH2 tanker. Unfortunately, the H2 used for this project will apparently come from Australian brown coal, with the H2 made there and liquefied for shipping. Cost targets for profitability are $0.26/normal cubic meter (NM^3) wholesale by 2025, with electricity costs hoped/forecast to be about $0.14/kWh.

 

[GRA]

Went back and forth on whether to put this in the Mirai thread or here, but decided it was as much if not more general than specific. Via ievs:

CARB Chair And Her Love Of The Toyota Mirai and Fuel Cell Tech

http://insideevs.com/carb-chair-and-her-love-of-the-toyota-mirai-and-fuel-cell-tech/

. . . This isn’t my first clean vehicle, as I also own a Honda FIT electric vehicle that I love. . . .

“As you can imagine, I’m a fan of all zero emission vehicles. While many electric vehicles are great for most driving needs — and they’re getting more affordable and better range all the time — sometimes you need a vehicle that has more range. . . .

In the original article (http://www.lamag.com/driver/mary-nichols-shares-the-joys-of-a-hydrogen-fuel-cell-ride/ ) which ievs' story is based on, she mentions that she's routinely getting at least 300 miles of range, although she says that's partly due to the car's instruments coaching her to improve her efficiency - when she first started driving it she was getting efficiency scores around 19 or 20, and now she's getting scores around 50.

Also, via ABG:

Japan wants to boost fuel-cell numbers 100x by 2020

http://www.autoblog.com/2016/03/18/japan-wants-to-boost-fuel-cell-numbers-100x-by-2020/

. . . Specifically, Japan, which is home to about 400 fuel-cell vehicles today, hopes to have 40,000 by 2020 and a whopping 800,000 by 2030. More importantly, Japan has 80 stations either in operation or slated to be deployed soon, and hopes to double that number by the end of the decade. . . .

 

[TonyWilliams]

The singular hope for hydrogen transport is quickly being erased with projects like this:

LONDON--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Transport for London (TfL) is making a bold move with the introduction of the world’s first zero-emission, long-range, all-electric BYD Double-Decker buses into revenue service routes. TfL celebrated the historic decision to deploy its first all-electric double decker buses with a special ceremony at London city hall this week with London’s Deputy Mayor of Environment and Energy, Matthew Pencharz formally receiving the first bus from BYD Europe.

“BYD is pleased to partner with Transport for London to provide these zero-emission, advanced technology buses that will help improve air quality in the greater London area and will also provide costs savings”
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“It’s a very exciting moment that this is happening here,” said Matthew Pencharz. “The running costs are much lower and some of the maintenance and operations costs are much lower on the buses. Also, these [buses] are zero-emission, zero-tailpipe-pollution and that is a huge benefit for Londoners.” TfL is putting five of the all-electric double decker buses on Route 98 operated on behalf of TfL by Metroline. Route 98 was chosen given its status as a pollution hotspot in the city.

TfL and Metroline will receive support from BYD with the installation of fast charging equipment at Metroline’s Willesden Bus Garage in north London. Additionally, BYD will provide driver training for the bus operators. BYD, the world’s largest electric vehicle manufacturer, designed and developed the vehicles to Transport of London’s specifications. The five buses scheduled for deployment are more than 33 feet long and feature air conditioning, seats for 54 passengers with space for 27 standing passengers (81 total).

“BYD is pleased to partner with Transport for London to provide these zero-emission, advanced technology buses that will help improve air quality in the greater London area and will also provide costs savings,” said Isbrand Ho. “TfL challenged us to develop a clean, all-electric bus that would meet their service requirements, and we’ve done just that. I hope other transport agencies take note of TfL’s leadership and see that there are no barriers to deploying all-electric buses into service in today’s market.”

The buses are equipped with BYD-designed and built Iron-Phosphate batteries, delivering 345 kWh of power that come with a Industry-benchmark 12 year battery warranty, the longest electric battery warranty available. The batteries can power the bus for over 24 hours and up to 190 miles of typical urban driving on the service routes with a single daily recharging requiring only four hours. TfL plans to charge the buses overnight using low-cost, off-peak electricity to provide additional cost savings.

 

[JeremyW]

Funny thing, I just came back from a trip to London, and I got to ride on a Hydrogen bus twice as well as about five times on hybrid buses. I didn't attempt to seek out any special buses, these were just in the normal course of seeing all the sights and navigating the city (we took dozens of buses as well as almost all the tube lines and some overhead rail). The only Hydrogen buses I saw (and rode on) were on the RV1 line which felt like the slowest and most traffic filled line I took, so in a sense it was a good "pilot" line for it. The busses are well marked as being "zero emissions", the word Hydrogen is plastered on the sides and embroidered on the seats! The hybrid busses are different though, with only some being labeled and the optional label being substantially smaller and more subtile.

As far as ride, it felt like a normal bus, the motor wine and other noises were noticeable but not any louder than a diesel model. The hybrid buses were quieter when starting off electric only, however.

While I do not like hydrogen for its inefficiency, I feel like any change from diesel in London is a good thing. The smell of diesel in London is nothing short of disgusting. I never saw soot from an exhaust on any vehicle, and every large lorry I saw had a urea tank, but it isn't enough. I hope the cab manufacture there can make plug in hybrid, electric, or even CNG models soon (I remember reading a while ago about them developing something but I didn't see anything on the streets).

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Toshiba H2One hydrogen-based autonomous energy supply system now providing power to a Kyushu Resort Hotel; hydrogen storage alloy

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160321-toshiba.html

. . . H2One integrates a photovoltaic power generation system with batteries for storing output power; a hydrogen-producing water electrolysis unit; solid state hydrogen storage—a MmNi5 (Mischmetal-nickel) alloy); and a hydrogen fuel cell unit. (Mischmetal is an alloy of rare earth elements.) . . .

 

[GRA]

Follow-up to the record attempt discussed upthread, via GCC:

London Hydrogen Network Expansion project sets two new FCEV records

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160322-lhne.html

. . . Working together, the partners of the LHNE project have broken the record for the longest journey in the UK on a single tank of hydrogen, travelling 400 miles (645 km), and have also broken the longest continuous journey for an FCEV by travelling 6,096 miles (9,811 km) over the course of six days. . . .

The group of companies that comprise the project, which is led by Air Products, completed around 50 of laps of the M25 motorway, plus mileage to and from one of the four publicly-accessible hydrogen refueling stations in the UK. . . .

So they fell short of the world un-refueled FCEV record (mentioned previously as 435 miles). Unfortunately, neither this article, the original press release or any other article I've found mentions average, maximum or minimum speeds, which is the only important point of this type of stunt AFAIC. I'm looking for that, plus weather info. Taking the info we do have, if they drove 6,096 miles in the maximum 144 hours (6 x 24), they'd average 42.33mph. Since they had to stop for fuel/driver swaps, it was presumably a bit higher. As they did it during the week on the M25, the ring freeway that encircles London, they must have had a lot of rush hour driving. It will be interesting to see what the speed ranges were.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

New DOE SBIR awards include H2 contaminants detection, fuel cell and H2 catalysis, and alkaline membrane electrolysis

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160325-sbir.html

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

Next Hyundai fuel-cell vehicle to be another SUV

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1103100_next-hyundai-fuel-cell-vehicle-to-be-another-suv

. . . The second-generation model will reportedly be a similar size to the current Tucson/ix35, but with significant weight reductions. Back in December, Hyundai and Kia fuel-cell research boss Sae-Hoon Kim said the company's next fuel-cell vehicle would use a dedicated platform. . . .

Kim also said that Hyundai was aiming for a 500-mile range, which probably translates to around 400 miles on the U.S. EPA testing cycle. . . .

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

ITM Power sells 1MW electrolyzer system to ZEAG Energie

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160331-itmpower.html

. . . The system will comprise an electrolyzer, compressor and apparatus to fill tube trailers . . . The system will be owned and operated by ZEAG but housed . . . at DLR (Deutsches Zentrum für Luft- und Raumfahrt), the German Aerospace Centre in Lampoldshausen.

The system is being supplied with a two year warranty plus a five year maintenance contract. Delivery is planned for the first quarter of 2017. . . .

 

[RegGuheert]

I like to see companies putting their money where their mouth is. Hopefully this is an example of that rather than a company taxpayer money to increase the demand for their products (though I don't blame the any companty for taking advantage of incentives that are offered by the government):

S. African platinum refinery preparing to run on fuel cells

The title is a bit misleading. Perhaps it should read "S. African platinum refinery preparing to run partially on fuel cells":

Impala Platinum Holdings Ltd., the world's second-biggest producer of the metal, plans to power its 22-megawatt refinery in South Africa using hydrogen and methane-powered fuel cells within the next two years.

It aims to build upon the prototype and generate about 8 megawatts of electricity to power the refinery by the end of the year and a further 1.2 megawatts will follow in early 2017, Goodlace said. Impala already uses hydrogen to refine nickel.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

H2 Logic to develop large-scale production plant for H2 refueling stations

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160404-h2logic.html

. . . The factory will have an annual capacity to manufacture hydrogen refueling stations sufficient to support 200,000 new Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles (FCEV) annually. . . .

When ramp-up and plant optimization is complete, the facility will have a name-plate production capacity of up to 300 refueling stations per year. . . .

The new production facility in Denmark will be prepared for the next generation refueling technology (H2Station) that will offer advances in areas such as increased refueling capacity and performance, reduced footprint and potential for significant cost reductions. . . .

Also GCC:

Uno-X Hydrogen to build 1st hydrogen refueling station w/ hydrogen produced by surplus renewable energy from neighboring building

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160404-iunox.html

Uno-X Hydrogen AS, a NEL ASA (NEL) joint venture, will build a hydrogen refueling station (HRS) with on-site hydrogen production co-located with Powerhouse Kjørbo, an energy-positive office building in Sandvika, Norway.

Powerhouse Kjørbo, which is owned by Entra ASA, uses solar panels that can supply upward of 200,000 kWh each year, twice the amount of the building’s annual energy consumption. Excess electricity from solar will be used to produce the hydrogen on-site. . . .

 

[lorenfb]

Some on the forum have indicated the final demise of FCEV the result of the 300K Model 3 reservations,
and that most ICEV OEMs' strategic R&D for FCEVs' development will be terminated. But they seem to forget
the many issues the typical consumer has with operating a BEV as mentioned many times in this thread.
The 300k reservations is extremely small compared to an overall U.S. annual auto sales volume of
about 17M vehicles, and given who will attempt to deliver those reservations, one has to discount that
overall view about FCEVs. Could even Elon be hedging with a secret underground bunker for a FCEV
R&D effort?

 

[sparky]

...The 300k reservations is extremely small compared to an overall U.S. annual auto sales volume of
about 17M vehicles,

Gee, when you put it that way... but two can play: 300k reservations per 4 days * 365 days annually comes to about 27M vehicles annually!!! GIGO.

...and given who will attempt to deliver those reservations, one has to discount that
overall view about FCEVs.

I don't think one has to do that at all and can't figure out how you arrived at that.

...Could even Elon be hedging with a secret underground bunker for a FCEV
R&D effort?

Yes. Indeed. He started building that bunker when he saw the world-wide line-ups for the Mirai.