Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

[TonyWilliams]

. . . The station in Kolding is the third to open in Denmark during the past six months, and in total the ninth public accessible hydrogen station in 24/7 operation throughout Denmark.

Additional H2Stations are planned during 2016 which will ensure that 50% of Danish population will have less than 15 kilometers to hydrogen fueling. . . .

This Danish H2 network seems to have merit. I'll bet they never mention the costs, or the TOTAL electrical use per kg of H2. Denmark, the entire country, is about the same size as Phoenix, Arizona... one city metropolitan area in one of 50 states in the US.

I thought this was an interesting metric:

"No location in Denmark is further from the coast than 52 km (32 mi)."

Denmark covers 42,434 square kilometers of land, population 5,543,453 (2012)

Phoenix, Arizona metro area 37,725.1 km2, about 3.6 million people.

 

[GRA]

. . . The station in Kolding is the third to open in Denmark during the past six months, and in total the ninth public accessible hydrogen station in 24/7 operation throughout Denmark.

Additional H2Stations are planned during 2016 which will ensure that 50% of Danish population will have less than 15 kilometers to hydrogen fueling. . . .

This Danish H2 network seems to have merit. I'll bet they never mention the costs, or the TOTAL electrical use per kg of H2. <snip>

I suspect they don't care, as they often have lots of excess wind that they have to export to Germany and/or Scandinavia, which means that electricity spot prices in Nordpool can go negative. Denmark has an ideal situation for electrolysis. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_sector_in_Denmark

and

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark

for more details. In 2015, 42% of their electricity consumption came from wind, and they're shooting for 50% by 2020, and up to 84% by 2035.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

DOE seeking input on R&D and business needs for automotive PEM fuel cells and fueling

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160305-fcto.html

. . . Specifically, FCTO seeks information regarding: R&D needs to improve performance and reduce cost of bipolar plates for polymer electrolyte membrane fuel cells (PEMFCs); the high startup cost for hydrogen refueling stations, which may be caused by extensive installation and permitting efforts or low equipment utilization; and innovative research topics that may not currently be part of the FCTO portfolio but could potentially be appropriate for future efforts or funding opportunity announcements. . . .

The other major factor in commercialization of automotive PEMFCs is availability and cost reductions of hydrogen fuel. DOE attributes the high cost of hydrogen fuel to the fuel cell vehicle user in part to permitting on a site without existing gaseous fuel such as compressed natural gas or the lack for fuel demand by privately owned vehicles to cover the high capital equipment investment. . . .

 

[GetOffYourGas]

I suspect they don't care, as they often have lots of excess wind that they have to export to Germany and/or Scandinavia

FYI, by most accounts, Denmark is considered part of Scandinavia (although I understand you're probably referring to Norway/Sweden/Finland). /nitpick

Hydrogen is an interesting means of saving excess power for later. It also it likely better than a battery for heavy transport like trucks and boats. But Tony makes a good point about cost. I wonder if they will ever bring costs down enough to be competitive with liquid fuels. Before we kill the planet by burning them all, anyway.

 

[GRA]

I suspect they don't care, as they often have lots of excess wind that they have to export to Germany and/or Scandinavia

FYI, by most accounts, Denmark is considered part of Scandinavia (although I understand you're probably referring to Norway/Sweden/Finland). /nitpick

Hydrogen is an interesting means of saving excess power for later. It also it likely better than a battery for heavy transport like trucks and boats. But Tony makes a good point about cost. I wonder if they will ever bring costs down enough to be competitive with liquid fuels. Before we kill the planet by burning them all, anyway.

Yes, I know Denmark is part of Scandinavia, but as you understood I was referring to the parts of Scandinavia on the other side of the Skaggerak/Kattegat (and not Iceland ). FWIW, I recently read "The Almost Nearly Perfect People: Behind the Myth of the Scandinavian Utopia": http://www.amazon.com/The-Almost-Nearly-Perfect-People/dp/0224089625

which details the differences between them. As you say, getting the cost of H2 down to parity or less will ultimately determine how well it does against liquid fuels. But the Danes are pretty much swimming in wind power; as was mentioned in the Danish Wind power link I provided ^^, they're even using it for space heating, and plan to do more of that! If they've got enough excess to use electricity in the most wasteful way possible, then using it for electrolysis just isn't an issue.

 

[lorenfb]

Another strategic perspective on Tesla that should be discounted?
http://seekingalpha.com/article/395...4193df084372204a5568a0ddb764df4&uprof=44&dr=1

 

[finman100]

That is laughable. thanks for the joke. for the past 10 years and the next 10. and the 10 after that. and the 10 after that...

 

[Firetruck41]

That is laughable. thanks for the joke. for the past 10 years and the next 10. and the 10 after that. and the 10 after that...

x2

That site is... ahem... interesting. Must register to view after the first page (after reading summary on first page, no need to read further/register for spam). Author looks to be about 19 y/o. Author gets paid $35 plus $0.01 per page view...

 

[WetEV]

FCVs (Fuel Cell Vehicles) started out over a decade ago as technology that was in its infancy stage, and clearly not ready for prime time.

Yes, OK so far.

A decade later, and it appears the time has come for fuel cell vehicles to reclaim the mantle as the most energy efficient, practical and realistic choice for the zero-emission car-buying consumer.

Give me a break.

"Reclaim the mantle" -- never had it. Fuel cells have never been practical or realistic. Maybe in the future...

"most energy efficient" -- no, fuel cells are not the most energy efficient.

"practical" -- hardly.

"realistic" -- to even the tiny fraction living close to one of the few, expensive, unreliable, hydrogen fueling stations, no.

 

[GRA]

FCVs (Fuel Cell Vehicles) started out over a decade ago as technology that was in its infancy stage, and clearly not ready for prime time.

Yes, OK so far.

A decade later, and it appears the time has come for fuel cell vehicles to reclaim the mantle as the most energy efficient, practical and realistic choice for the zero-emission car-buying consumer.

Give me a break.

"Reclaim the mantle" -- never had it. Fuel cells have never been practical or realistic. Maybe in the future...

"most energy efficient" -- no, fuel cells are not the most energy efficient.

"practical" -- hardly.

"realistic" -- to even the tiny fraction living close to one of the few, expensive, unreliable, hydrogen fueling stations, no.

"Reclaim the mantle" is certainly over the top, although given the cyclical faddish nature of the "latest big thing in AFVs", it's semi-accurate in that context. See

Study suggests policymakers need to move beyond alt fuels hype to decarbonize transport successfully

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160302-sperling.html

Policymakers who want to decarbonize the transportation sector will need to move beyond the hype that has characterized alternative fuels over the past three decades and find better ways to assess and sustain promising technologies and fuels, according to a study from Simon Fraser University, Canadian consulting firm Navius Research, and the University of California, Davis.

In the study, published in the journal Nature Energy, Noel Melton, Jonn Axsen and Daniel Sperling conduct a media analysis to show how society’s attention has skipped among alternative fuel vehicle (AFV) technology between 1980 and 2013, including methanol, natural gas, plug-in electric, hybrid electric, hydrogen and biofuels. They then make recommendations that governments can follow to move past hype to support significant AFV adoption and displace fossil fuel use in the transportation sector. . . .

As for the rest, I think the difference is that you're parsing these terms separately instead of considering them together. As I read it (and believe is generally the case in most of the world's cities, although most here disagree) they are the most energy efficient technology which is practical and realistic, given the time constraints we face. Not the most energy-efficient as a whole. But no single AFV tech will get us where we need to be, nor are any of them ideal in all situations. FCEVs are certainly practical (given a fueling infrastructure), albeit not cost effective currently (but then the same is true for all AFVs at the moment, outside of very limited niches). FCEVs are certainly the closest to being realistically able to completely replace the capabilities of liquid-fueled ICEs at this time, but that may well change. That experimental dem/val fueling stations have been unreliable has been unarguable, but then that's to be expected, and the stations currently being constructed are designed for routine retail usage, with the reliability needed for that. But we've all had these arguments many times before, and none of us is likely to change anyone else's mind.

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

London Hydrogen Network Expansion partners aim at new hydrogen car records

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160307-lhne.html

. . . Working together, the partners of the government-backed London Hydrogen Network Expansion project (LHNE) will attempt to set new records for the longest journey on one tank of hydrogen (existing record 435 miles/700 km) and the longest continuous FCEV journey (6,024 miles/9,695 km). . . .

Mostly just the usual fluff attendant on record-setting attempts, and AFAIC record-setting is rarely important, but there is a little meat:

There are currently six stations in the UK, including the two public Air Products SmartFuel stations in London and funding is in place for at least 12 to be operational in England and Scotland within the next 12 months. . . .

 

[WetEV]

But we've all had these arguments many times before, and none of us is likely to change anyone else's mind.

Which explains why you keep spamming FCEV stuff into an electric car forum.... Right.

 

[GetOffYourGas]

But we've all had these arguments many times before, and none of us is likely to change anyone else's mind.

Which explains why you keep spamming FCEV stuff into an electric car forum.... Right.

If you don't want to read about FCEVs, why do you keep clicking on this thread? Some of us are here because we are interested in alternative fuels. Electricity (stored in a battery) is one of the best, but certainly not the only option.

 

[finman100]

I like the truth about fool cells to be heard. not the non-sense that is taken for fact about one of the worst ways to power a car.

http://evobsession.com/hydrogen-cars-vs-electric-cars-detailed-comparison-efficiency/

http://tonyseba.com/toyota-vs-tesla-can-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-compete-with-electric-vehicles/

One cannot beat physics! Please tell me how H2 is the answer. It is not.

and this last one below is how we want to make H2? affordable? sure. A good idea? not so much.

http://redgreenandblue.org/2010/12/13/putting-the-brakes-on-natural-gas-fracking/

 

[RegGuheert]

Via GCC:

London Hydrogen Network Expansion partners aim at new hydrogen car records

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160307-lhne.html

. . . Working together, the partners of the government-backed London Hydrogen Network Expansion project (LHNE) will attempt to set new records for the longest journey on one tank of hydrogen (existing record 435 miles/700 km) and the longest continuous FCEV journey (6,024 miles/9,695 km). . . .

Yeah, hydrogen cars have some catching up to do: Tesla P85D sets world record by driving 452.8 miles on a single charge
Likely the Tesla P85D costs less to manufacture than any of the hydrogen cars on the road today. I expect that record will be beaten by a P90D.
An epic 12,000-mile road trip smashes records for longest electric car drive

 

[GRA]

But we've all had these arguments many times before, and none of us is likely to change anyone else's mind.

Which explains why you keep spamming FCEV stuff into an electric car forum.... Right.

I fail to see how providing information to anyone who's interested in ALL types of EVs, not just BEVs, is spamming. Anyone who isn't interested in FCEVs (or PHEVs FTM) can just ignore it, and those who do have an interest can read it, just like all the other topics here. Did you somehow misread the title of the "Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread" as the "Of the BEV, By the BEV, and For the BEV" thread?

 

[GRA]

Via GCC:

London Hydrogen Network Expansion partners aim at new hydrogen car records

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/03/20160307-lhne.html

. . . Working together, the partners of the government-backed London Hydrogen Network Expansion project (LHNE) will attempt to set new records for the longest journey on one tank of hydrogen (existing record 435 miles/700 km) and the longest continuous FCEV journey (6,024 miles/9,695 km). . . .

Yeah, hydrogen cars have some catching up to do: Tesla P85D sets world record by driving 452.8 miles on a single charge
Likely the Tesla P85D costs less to manufacture than any of the hydrogen cars on the road today. I expect that record will be beaten by a P90D.
An epic 12,000-mile road trip smashes records for longest electric car drive

One hopes that they won't bother to drive at 25 miles or less to do so, as Bjorn did. Like LEAFfan's 188 mile exploit, it's meaningless in the real world, but then most records are, which is why I think they're a waste of time.

 

[RegGuheert]

One hopes that they won't bother to drive at 25 miles or less to do so, as Bjorn did.

How do you suppose they intend to break the current record, then? Speed up?

Like LEAFfan's 188 mile exploit, it's meaningless in the real world, but then most records are, which is why I think they're a waste of time.

Yet you created a post about a *plan* to break a record with a hydrogen car. Seriously, if you think that breaking a record is a waste of time, then what do you call posting about someone thinking about breaking a record?

 

[WetEV]

I fail to see how providing information to anyone who's interested in ALL types of EVs, not just BEVs, is spamming.

Let's check the title for the forum.

Discussion Forum for the Nissan LEAF EV

Is there any hint that Nissan might be bringing out a fuel cell LEAF?

I guess I missed that story.


At what time does "providing information" (off topic) become spam?

I'm not sure. Not the first post, or the 100th post... But probably before the 1000th post. Are you there yet?


The salesman that just will not take "no" for an answer.

May never get invited to lunch again.


When a FCEV gets as good as the EV1, and is able to complete a cross country trip without a support semitruck, I'd like to hear about it.

That would be real news.


EVs are a world ahead of fuel cells for cost, capability, efficiency, practicality and convenience.

Near daily updates on tiny progress of fuel cells? Please, no.


Never letting any contrary statement go without a rebuttal? Gets tiresome.

Please.

 

[lorenfb]

I fail to see how providing information to anyone who's interested in ALL types of EVs, not just BEVs, is spamming.

Let's check the title for the forum.

Discussion Forum for the Nissan LEAF EV

Is there any hint that Nissan might be bringing out a fuel cell LEAF?

I guess I missed that story.


At what time does "providing information" (off topic) become spam?

O.K., then let's delete all the other "off topic" threads too, e.g. Tesla. There is an ignore function.