Cold in Colorado!

Greetings Leafers!

Long time reader, First time poster!!

My particulars:

Denver, CO - Metro Area
2012 SL due to arrive in December 2011
Winter Package: Standard
Reserved: 4/20/10
Color: Cayenne
36-Month Lease
My Current Whip: 1997 Honda Accord / 5 Speed Manual / 240K on the ODO / Donating after Leaf's arrival / Plan B: My wife's 2005 Hyundai Tucson
50 mile RT Commute

My minimum RT commute is 39.8 Miles - [14 miles: street (45-50 mph); 5.9 miles: highway (55-65 mph)] X 2. Mix of flat and some rolling hills. I need a little cushion for lunch and errands - thus the 50 mile requirement.

For the Locals: C-470 to Santa Fe to I-25 to 38th Ave

My concerns: Snow & Cold.

Without driving like an extreme hyper-miler (No offense to the Masters on this Forum), can this commute be made all year round? (Without dropping into neutral - I may be overly cautious, but I see this practice as somewhat unsafe. I love feathering -both slow and go pedals - but hope to keep the car always in gear: D/ECO.)

I Do Not have access to charging at work.

L2 at home. Minimal charging infrastructure in the Denver metro area at present.

Extreme cold weather - in the teens - and the 3 to 4 major snow storms each season, are my biggest concerns.

Will a 100% charge be my only option during the winter months - perhaps always? What does 8 hours in the frigid cold do to the Leaf's range if it isn't getting any juice during that period? Will I make the 20 mile commute home? Lights, Heater, Defrost, etc.

I'm very willing to sacrifice cabin heat for the heated seats and steering wheel, but I am not willing to sacrifice safety by not using the defroster when needed.

For the physics lovers: Might my range be slightly better at our Mile-High Altitude? (It works for Kickers, right?) Any idea how much better - as a % of range?

I wish to truly thank all of the Forum Members for their dedication, exceptional insight, and pure enthusiasm for this revolutionary vehicle!

I look forward to sharing my Leaf adventures with you in the very near future!

Sincerely,

AmpUpCO

w 14 miles of street...Easy.

AmpUpCO said:

Greetings Leafers!
2012 SL due to arrive in December 2011

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Lucky SOB! My delivery is January and I'm a little bummed about the tax scenario. I did get the charger installed last week at least.

My Denver-area commute is 20 RT, so I am not as concerned about the range even in cold weather, but I do like to venture into the foothills on occasion (~3000 ft elevation change, 60 RT) and I am hoping I'll be able to do that without issue.

Thank you for the vote of confidence, Mossy!

My charging station was installed last week as well, Jaxed, and I recommended we enjoy our Thanksgiving meal in the garage to appreciate it fully, but I was sadly shot down by the the lovely Mrs. AmpUp...

Can't wait for the 16th of December!!! (Due Date!)

Has anyone noticed "Pending" status for delivery over the last week or so on the Leaf portal? I'm a bit concerned... Hopefully, it is good news - like it's on the boat!!!!

You guys could insulate the battery pack during winter... and then run an aftermarket oil pan heater to keep the pack at 75°F all night long while it charges. You could also use a 12V accessory windshield defogger, only uses 200 watts.

Since you are leasing you dont care how often you charge to 100%.

Excellent recommendations, Herm!

My garage is insulated, so, I'm not so concerned about evening charging. What does have me shivering is the 8 hours of outdoor/uncovered exposure in sub-freezing temperatures without the access to even an L1 connection at work to trickle charge (or to power the oil pan heater - as recommended).

I will seriously consider the window defogger, however!

Has anyone else had any experience with long-time, unplugged, cold exposure and how it impacts the Leaf's range?

Jaxed, since you are a fellow Coloradan, what are your top 3 concerns surrounding your decision to make the Leaf your next vehicle? The lack of Tax incentives in 2012 is truly a downer, but your commitment to going 100% electric must be commended!

For what it's worth, I have checked out the L2 Charger at Crecent Electric off of I-25 and 6th Ave and it is for real. I just don't know if I'll ever be able to use it. They close at 5PM and I don't get off of work until 5. Not much help for my snowy trek home scenario, I'm afraid...

AmpUpCO said:

Has anyone else had any experience with long-time, unplugged, cold exposure and how it impacts the Leaf's range?

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We live above 6000' elevation and park our LEAF outdoors. Nighttime temperatures here have been in the 20s and 30s (Fahrenheit) for the last few weeks (and there's snow on the ground). Consequently, our battery temperature has been at only four bars pretty much continuously, except on a couple of occasions when we drove down to the "flatlands" where it's warmer. While there's been some loss of range, it hasn't seemed dramatic, maybe roughly 20% or so. When we run the heater, there's more range loss, though.

On most days, we drive well within the LEAF's range, and only charge to about eight bars (~70%). We re-charge at around three bars (~35%). While this use pattern is gentle on the battery, it also doesn't tend to heat it up much.

If you need maximum range, definitely charge to 100%, which has the secondary benefit of warming the battery. On one trip down the mountain, we charged to 100% at two different charge points before returning home. That helped raise the battery temperature to five bars and gave us more range (in that case, a 94 mile round trip with 5000' of descending, then 5000' of climbing to get back home).

Another thought for you: Try parking in the sun on cold days. At the very least, you'll return to a more comfortable car.

AmpUpCO said:

The lack of Tax incentives in 2012 is truly a downer, but your commitment to going 100% electric must be commended!

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Is there anything definite about the availability or lack of tax incentives federal or CO in 2012? I just got my delivery quoted as "week of 02 January 2012". Frustrating to miss 2011 by only a week or two.

I too got my charger installed this year to make sure I got that at least.

You can also run the climate control to pre-condition the car to a comfortable temperature while it's still on the charger before you leave. That will extend your range by using the climate control less during your commute since the car interior will start out at the right temperature.

Thank you all for your replies! Very helpful!

I'm a long time fan and avid reader of abasile, and I love your gorgeous photos. I will certainly be finding a sunny place to park at work to take advantage of our sunshine here in Colorful Colorado. A 20% hit to my range may prove extremely detrimental, however.

I'll be working on a plan B and C, over the next few weeks, to battle those extremely cold days.

TJZ, I'm really not certain what incentives may be available for sure in 2012. But with all the talk of budget cuts in Congress, I fear the ones for EV purchases are vulnerable.

Thank you for the pre-heating tip, Gold Member, and I plan on using that feature daily while charging at home. But I'm most concerned about my drive home from work. The car will not have the benefit of a charginging source for 8 hours while I'm working, and the battery will sit cold and idle during that time. How will that impact my 20 mile trip home?

Thanks for the kind words.

Given roads in decent condition, I really don't see your driving requirements as at all problematic. The very worst case, on especially frigid, sunless days, could be that you might have to forgo driving around at lunchtime or for errands, or stop somewhere to charge. More likely, you'll figure out how to drive efficiently enough to give yourself a good cushion on those days.

On the other hand, significant amounts of snow on the road could eat into your range more than you'd like, simply because of the added rolling resistance. While I now have snow experience in the LEAF (including one instance where I had to put on tire cables in order to climb a hill on an unplowed street), I haven't driven it significant distances in the snow. So we collectively will be doing some learning this winter.

AmpUpCO said:

Jaxed, since you are a fellow Coloradan, what are your top 3 concerns surrounding your decision to make the Leaf your next vehicle? The lack of Tax incentives in 2012 is truly a downer, but your commitment to going 100% electric must be commended!

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Three concerns? My only real concern is - how well will this thing drive in the foothills. I live at 5300 feet, and drive to 8500 feet at least once or twice a month, about 25-30 miles each way. I can charge 110 at my destination - but maybe I can just regen down the mountain? Of course, temperature is also a concern on these foothill trips.

I'm wondering if there is any way to get that car before the end of the year. I'm not clear at all on the tax incentives for the state of Colorado in 2012 - although it looks like the federal credit will still be $7500 (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false. One nice thing, it looks like there is a 30% federal credit on the charger for 2011, and a 20% credit on the charger from the state of Colorado for 2011 (http://www.pluginamerica.org/incentives" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

jaxed said:

My only real concern is - how well will this thing drive in the foothills. I live at 5300 feet, and drive to 8500 feet at least once or twice a month, about 25-30 miles each way.

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On multiple occasions, including one week ago, I've driven 45-50 miles one way with 5000 feet of net elevation gain. Most recently, with temperatures in the 50s in the flatlands and 30s at home, we started from the flatlands with 100% charge and arrived home in the mountains at just below 17% (low battery warning). I drove slowly, 55 mph on the freeways and 30-35 mph up our mountain road.

I doubt that 25-30 miles with 3200 feet of elevation gain will be any problem for you, as long as you aren't having to slog through lots of snow on the roads. And yes, the return should be a piece of cake.

Don't you find the Traction Control effective enough to handle most snowy conditions? Or are snow tires and/or chains a must for the Leaf?

Jaxed, I found this helpful Tax Incentive link earlier today on the forum:


http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index#/leaf-electric-car/incentives/index/url" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

AmpUpCO said:

Don't you find the Traction Control effective enough to handle most snowy conditions? Or are snow tires and/or chains a must for the Leaf?

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I have no complaints about the LEAF's traction control, and the LEAF is certainly no worse in snow than other front-wheel-drive cars. However, here in our mountain town, many people drive AWD/4WD vehicles to handle the combination of snow/ice and hills. Traction control is great for safety, but it will not create traction where it does not exist.

In the Southern California mountains, the authorities tend to require snow chains for 2WD vehicles at the slightest accumulation of snow on the highways. So chains are a must, whether one truly "needs" them or not. Snow tires are useful for negotiating neighborhood streets once chain requirements have been lifted from the state highways. I understand that the state of Colorado allows drivers more latitude in deciding when and where to use chains. California tends to be more strict because of the high percentage of drivers with little to no snow driving experience, i.e., "flatlanders".

AmpUpCO said:

Jaxed, I found this helpful Tax Incentive link earlier today on the forum:


http://www.nissanusa.com/leaf-electric-car/index#/leaf-electric-car/incentives/index/url" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Thanks!

I dug a bit further. In 2012-2016 the state of Colorado will do away with the Alternative Fuel Income Tax Credit and implement the Innovative Motor Vehicle credit. Near as I can tell, there will remain up to $6000 tax credit on the purchase of an "alternative fuel vehicle" by this definition (25-7-106.8 (1) (a), C.R.S.):

(a) "Alternative fuel" means compressed natural gas, propane, ethanol, or any mixture of ethanol containing eighty-five percent or more ethanol by volume with gasoline or other fuels, electricity, or any other fuels, which fuels may include, but are not limited to, clean diesel and reformulated gasoline so long as these other fuels make comparable reductions in carbon monoxide emissions and brown cloud pollutants as determined by the air quality control commission.

Here is the passage ( from: http://www.colorado.gov/cs/Satellite?c=Document_C&cid=1178305445492&pagename=Revenue%2FDocument_C%2FREVXAddLink" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false:

Tax Credits for Innovative Motor Vehicles [§39-22-516,.5 C.R.S.]
For income tax years commencing on or after January 1, 2012, but prior to January 1, 2016, there shall be allowed to any person a credit against the tax imposed by this article, not to exceed $6,000, for each motor vehicle owned by such person that:
(I) uses or is converted to use an alternative fuel;
(II) is a hybrid vehicle;
(III) is a plug-in hybrid electric vehicle;
(IV) has its power source replaced with a power source that uses an alternative fuel; or (V) is modified to include idling reduction technology.

Soooo..... it looks like there is a nice tax credit for Colorado after all in 2012!

AmpUpCO said:

Extreme cold weather - in the teens - and the 3 to 4 major snow storms each season, are my biggest concerns.

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Living in Norway, it's quite amusing to see people calling temps in the teens extreme cold :mrgreen:

I'm not going to say I have tested my Leaf in extreme cold before it has done some driving in at least -20F weather...

jkirkebo said:

Living in Norway, it's quite amusing to see people calling temps in the teens extreme cold :mrgreen:

I'm not going to say I have tested my Leaf in extreme cold before it has done some driving in at least -20F weather...

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I think you are going to give your battery heater a workout unless you can garage your car at each end!

Yes, "cold" doesn't really start until the snow is cold enough to squeak when one walks on it, IMO (I consider squeaky-cold snow to be one of life's little pleasures). There are only a few places in sunny Colorado that routinely experience extreme cold, some at high elevations and others in valleys where the cold air from the mountains pools at night.

The lowest temperature I've measured at my house was -22ºF (-30ºC) last February. That would be no big deal for you (or for someone in Jackson Wyoming, Fairbanks Alaska, or in states like Minnesota and Montana). We are much too far south here for your sort of extreme cold. (Yesterday's high was a balmy 44ºF and the low was 11ºF at my house at 7670 feet.)

AmpUpCO and jaxed, you might want to check out the discussion in this thread:
Can anyone explain the Colorado state tax credit for EVs?
[Edit: corrected link.]

For starters, you ought to read the DOR publication: FYI Income 9 Alternative Fuel Income Tax Credits

The problem with all this is that we don't yet know the "Incremental Price Difference" for the 2012 LEAF. Also, note that the credit drops from 85% of IPD to 75% of IPD on January 1st, 2012 and that you need to reduce that by the amount of the Federal Tax Credit, if you qualify for it (?). Finally, the credit for leases is reduced, based on the capitalized cost, so leasing in Colorado results in a lower state tax credit:

The available credit is calculated by subtracting the value of the vehicle when the lease expires from the cost of the vehicle to the lessor at the time of the lease transaction (capitalized cost), and dividing that amount by the cost of the vehicle to the lessor at the time of the lease transaction.

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You should not have a problem with a 50 mile round trip. You will have at least a 20 mile buffer. When it is cold here I will turn heater on in car using app on iPhone, 5 min. before I leave. Yes it will run on battery, but it does warm up the car. Good luck