Cold in Colorado!

[TonyWilliams]

I live in Santa Barbara and we have had a few nights down to 30.. the result on range is very significant. From about 100 miles ( 100% charge ) to about 75 . Reality is that I can just make a 70 mile round trip on almost flat freeway. Did come back one day with only ------ on the miles left display.

Please slow down !!! I'm going to guess you're driving to Ventura and back on the 101? Is there a chance you could charge there a bit?

Check out the chart in my signature line, "How Far Can I Drive", to get an idea of how significant speed is to range. None of that data is from the dash GuessOmeter.

 

[AmpUpCO]

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[AmpUpCO]

At every temperature there is a max voltage beyond which some battery damage will occur. Let us say we charge the battery to 100% (whatever that actually means in Leaf) when the battery is at a nice toasty temperature of 70 F. But after that the battery temperature goes down - and this could be a problem - since now the battery voltage may be too high for that lower temperature leading to battery damage. So, charging the battery at a higher temperature but letting it sit at 100% charge in much lower temperature should be avoided.

EVNow, please help me understand this battery state a bit better. I won't be the least bit offended if you talk to me like a 5-year old...

I don't want to damage the battery, but I do feel I'll need 100% charge to make my commute this winter...

I was actually toying with the idea of putting a space heater in the garage to keep the batteries "toasty," but from what you're saying, that shouldn't be done...

 

[abasile]

I don't want to damage the battery, but I do feel I'll need 100% charge to make my commute this winter...

Just set a charging timer so that the car finishes charging to 100% immediately prior to your departure. That is the "best practice" recommended by Nissan, and many, many LEAF owners are doing this. Charging to 100% doesn't seem to be a big deal as long as you don't leave the car sitting at 100% for too long.

 

[TonyWilliams]

I was actually toying with the idea of putting a space heater in the garage to keep the batteries "toasty," but from what you're saying, that shouldn't be done...

If you're charging the heated battery at 70F, and then you drive the car out of the garage on your commute to work, there's no problem. As the battery cools to the ambient temperature, you'll have burnt off the voltage well below that which might be a concern.

If you're cruising down the highway at 60mph with the heater going (maybe 3.0 to 3.5 miles/kWh, depending how much heater), in three to four minutes, you burnt one kWh. Another three to four, two kWh.

What you absolutely don't want to happen is charge to 4.1v per cell (full charge), and then let that cell be exposed to significantly colder temps. I've already had the "11 bar" 80% charge, and that's here in San Diego. Charged with 60-70F the previous day, and it went down to something really cold for here, like 40F.

So, as stated above, 100% charge, if needed, and plan your charge to end just before launch. Heating the battery will add range (until it gets cold).

 

[AmpUpCO]

Why are some Posters getting "Fully Charged" messages at 2:30AM?

I do plan - as the manual (and many Leafers) suggests - to only set a departure timer. But due to my 50 mile CW commute, I'll be charging to 100% SOC instead of 80%.

Is the software intelligent enough to protect the battery fully throughout the evening charge cycle?

Worst case scenario:

8F degrees OAT
Arrive home with 6 feet of charge left in the battery in Turtle Mode
Timer set for departure at 7AM.

In this state, can I plug the car into my L2 EVSE and go to bed?

Is the programming strong enough to prevent any damage to the battery at this extremely low state of charge - as well as protecting it from damage at 100% SOC when I jump in the car and press the start button at 7AM?

While writing this post, I also thought about what steps I should take to protect the battery if it is 8F, I got ill during the night (with a bad case of range anxiety ) and decided not to go to work? Would you recommend I unplug and run the CC until the SOC was at 80%???

 

[abasile]

Irrespective of temperature, any time our battery is at a low state of charge, I try to put some juice in right away. I typically do this by hitting the "timer override" button and letting it charge for an hour or two, at which point I stop charging by unplugging the car. I'll then plug it in again, and let the overnight timer to do its thing for the remainder of the desired charge.

While this extra effort might not be strictly necessary, I am personally inclined to do everything I reasonably can to get the most out of the battery pack. I expect we'll still own this car in 10 years.

 

[AmpUpCO]

Irrespective of temperature, any time our battery is at a low state of charge, I try to put some juice in right away. I typically do this by hitting the "timer override" button and letting it charge for an hour or two, at which point I stop charging by unplugging the car. I'll then plug it in again, and let the overnight timer to do its thing for the remainder of the desired charge.

While this extra effort might not be strictly necessary, I am personally inclined to do everything I reasonably can to get the most out of the battery pack. I expect we'll still own this car in 10 years.

Perhaps I'm expecting too much, but shouldn't the vehicle's software:

1) confirm its state of charge
2) acknowledge that it's plugged into an L2 EVSE
3) note the departure time
4) automatically - as you're doing manually - add a few hours of charge (or anything else for that matter to ensure the pack's care - whether it be to allow the batteries to cool before charging or prevent them from dropping to a dangerously low SOC) the health and well-being of the battery pack is paramount!

What if I plugged in at 6PM, but had a start timer set for 3AM. If it benefits the battery pack, the software should ignore/override that timer and pump a few kWs into the battery.

I've learned so much from this forum, but I'm no electrician or battery specialist. The layperson won't know what's "right" for the battery. Nissan should plan for that lack of expertise in their software development, and diagnose all conditions and do what's right for the health and longevity of the battery.

Don't you agree?

There are so many variables to consider to properly care for the battery, that they honestly shouldn't be left up to the driver! The average Joe or Jane simply does not know the technology well enough.

There are no excuses for not reading the manual for this vehicle (I've already read both the 2011 and 2012 versions cover to cover) but the battery information shared on this forum goes way beyond what is outlined in the manuals. And frankly, it seems a fairly extensive understanding of batteries and electricity are almost a requirement for owning a BEV.

One does not have to understand every engine component in an ICE to operate it safely and care for it properly. I admit that the more one knows about its workings, the better. And many of the forum contributors advocate understanding the Leaf and its technology as best as one can.

But the Leaf was hopefully built for "the common driver" - as an easier, more energy efficient means of getting from A to B.

What are your thoughts?

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Have you considered simply setting the timer to 24 hours for 80%, plug in when you get home and then set a climate control timer early enough in the morning to essentially do a prewarm top off to 100% by the time you need to leave... at least that's what I'd try and see if it works. I've managed to do this a couple of times. If that doesn't do the trick can you set one timer for a couple of hours of charging then the second timer to finish the job closer to the time you leave in the morning? Prewarming seems to be helping range for me more than just saving on climate control juice, don't be afraid to use it liberally.

Why are some Posters getting "Fully Charged" messages at 2:30AM?

I do plan - as the manual (and many Leafers) suggests - to only set a departure timer. But due to my 50 mile CW commute, I'll be charging to 100% SOC instead of 80%.

Is the software intelligent enough to protect the battery fully throughout the evening charge cycle?

Worst case scenario:

8F degrees OAT
Arrive home with 6 feet of charge left in the battery in Turtle Mode
Timer set for departure at 7AM.

In this state, can I plug the car into my L2 EVSE and go to bed?

Is the programming strong enough to prevent any damage to the battery at this extremely low state of charge - as well as protecting it from damage at 100% SOC when I jump in the car and press the start button at 7AM?

While writing this post, I also thought about what steps I should take to protect the battery if it is 8F, I got ill during the night (with a bad case of range anxiety ) and decided not to go to work? Would you recommend I unplug and run the CC until the SOC was at 80%???

 

[abasile]

Keep in mind that this is the first generation of the LEAF. While I am grateful that it is as refined as it is, and I think Nissan did quite well overall for the first generation, I expect that future generations will be significantly improved.

As for automatically charging to optimize battery longevity, there might in many cases be a trade-off with respect to the customer's TOU (time of use) electric rates. It would be nice to have this as an option, though. As it stands today, even if the car just limped home in turtle mode and you plug it in immediately, it will not start charging until a timer or smartphone tells it to charge (unless of course you override the timers).

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

for better or worse, we have no TOU for now up here. I would agree that improvements will come but actually also agree that it's pretty awesome the way it is... I'm much closer than I was a month ago to saying I think there is a method to the madness of the current design. we all need to keep working on the cold whether protocol, I think there are more stones yet unturned.

Keep in mind that this is the first generation of the LEAF. While I am grateful that it is as refined as it is, and I think Nissan did quite well overall for the first generation, I expect that future generations will be significantly improved.

As for automatically charging to optimize battery longevity, there might in many cases be a trade-off with respect to the customer's TOU (time of use) electric rates. It would be nice to have this as an option, though. As it stands today, even if the car just limped home in turtle mode and you plug it in immediately, it will not start charging until a timer or smartphone tells it to charge (unless of course you override the timers).

 

[AmpUpCO]

Thank you for listening to my rant, abasile. And I want you to know that from what I've already learned from you and the other forum members, given this same scenario, I'd do precisely what you recommended.

I just feel for the Leaf owner who hasn't found this forum...

 

[abasile]

I just feel for the Leaf owner who hasn't found this forum...

Driving electric is a paradigm shift. Consider all the general knowledge about gasoline/diesel vehicles that most people take for granted, i.e., driving gently right after a cold start, knowing when to change the oil, maintaining a reasonable RPM range, filling the gas tank properly, learning to recognize when the engine doesn't "feel" right and needs maintenance, etc., etc. EVs are simpler, but certainly do have their own things for owners to learn if they want an optimal experience. Even here on this forum, most of us are still learning!

 

[davewill]

... While writing this post, I also thought about what steps I should take to protect the battery if it is 8F, I got ill during the night (with a bad case of range anxiety ) and decided not to go to work? Would you recommend I unplug and run the CC until the SOC was at 80%???

Remember that much of the battery longevity advice assumes that you're doing it all the time. A single episode (like being sick) of leaving the batt at 100% for a day isn't really going to matter very much. The thing to avoid is doing it regularly.

 

[kmp647]

It's been mild here in n va , some 20F nights , days in the 40's or low 50's

Had one rough commute 69 miles rt and ended up with my first LBW

1 bar and a flashing 6 on the gom , no heater used

Last night I tried two techniques

Set timer to start time 12:30am and end time 5:00am 100% (I usually just specify end time only)
Set climate pre heat at 5:00am

The late start time meant the charge didn't complete til 4:00am hopefully keeping some warmth in the pack

Then. Just after the preheat ended at 5:00am , I restarted charging for 10 minutes or so on L2

I think this replaced some of the kwh used during the preheat

Took my usual 63 mile rt to work and back ( no heater , just wheel and seats)

Ended up home with 3 bars and 24 miles on the gom

I will be : charging to 100% on my work days
Using the timer to delay start time so the charge finishes closer to departure time instead of 2.5 hours before
And topping after the preheat

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

kmp647 the preheat engages the charger, adding to the charge... are you seeing a drop in charge that makes you want to top off again?

 

[kmp647]

I'm not sure , my car is not garaged and we have had some cold nights

When preheat ends I was just jumping in the car and going

I guess I figure maybe the preheat is using more juice then the evse can provide

So I re started the charge , got 2 solid lights and #3 flashing so it was charging 10 mins maybe, then off to work

Held onto to bars well on my 65 mph trip to work 32 miles
8 bars lit at shut down, no trickle

7 bars lit when I left for trip home at 4pm

3 solid bars when I pulled into the driveway at 63 total miles

3 bars best I have ever had

I think even with L2 on pre heat during cold weather , heater at 4.5kw is exceeding evse supply

Doubt that will happen in summer , not possible for a/c to draw that much

 

[tps]

My estimated delivery is month of January 2012, probably end of January, so I'll likely be doing my first month or two during the coldest part of the year here. Luckily the weather is generally not that bad here, and my daily commute is only around 40 miles. I figure that even on a cold day with the heater running I shouldn't be in too much danger. If it ever looks as if there's any question, the NIssan dealer is just around the corner from my office, so I might drop off the car and walk to the office. It will be interesting to see how my LEAF deals with the weather; that's something I did not do with the rental LEAF...

 

[AmpUpCO]

Excellent information all!

And thank you for putting some of my concerns into perspective, asabile.

You're right. As long time ICE drivers, we do take a good deal of that technology for granted.

It'll hopefully take far less time to understand the new EV transportation future!

I'm interested in learning more about your commute, kmp. Highway? City? Mix? Average speed, etc. A 65 mile daily commute gives me a bit more confidence with my 50 mile one.

 

[kmp647]

my trip to work is on mostly on rt 66, 2 high speed lanes, speed limit 70mph for the first 17 miles, then 65mph for 7-8 miles, then 60mph for 3-4 miles, its a tough route for an EV! On the 70mph portion some drivers are travelling 75-78mph
inthe fast lane. I used to do that years ago but slowed down to save fuel and maybe my life on my daily commute in my ICE car honda element. its a real brick and at 70 mph uses a lot of fuel.

so I take it easy in the Leaf , hang in the right lane, mostly 65mph or less.

my trip home is on rt50 its slower and has lights, it can be more vaiable depending on how many red lights you hit and the taffic. 31 miles some slow sections but overall way lower average speed than the trip into work.
45-50 mostly some 55.

at a 40 or 50 mile total commute I would be heating the cabin pretty toasty and making the trip just fine