Cold in Colorado!

[SanDust]

Without driving like an extreme hyper-miler (No offense to the Masters on this Forum), can this commute be made all year round? (Without dropping into neutral - I may be overly cautious, but I see this practice as somewhat unsafe. I love feathering -both slow and go pedals - but hope to keep the car always in gear: D/ECO.)

I think you're going to be telling us. With a new battery a 50 mile round trip should not be a big deal but until a few people like yourself report on what happens we don't really know how the battery capacity will respond to a long cold soak. High wind can also be a major factor in lowering range. The good thing is that you will quickly get a feel for the various factors and after a short period you'll know with some certainty the days, if any, that you'll need Plan B.

Should be interesting. Keep us posted!

 

[abasile]

With a new battery a 50 mile round trip should not be a big deal but until a few people like yourself report on what happens we don't really know how the battery capacity will respond to a long cold soak.

Keep in mind that he will be parking in an insulated garage every night, and that his regular driving and charging (especially to 100%) will warm the pack somewhat. That will partially mitigate the workday cold soaks. In my case, I park outside all the time, charge to only about 70%, and there are some days when we only drive a few miles. I've definitely seen range loss, but it's not as if it's fallen off a cliff.

 

[Jay]

Greetings Leafers!

Long time reader, First time poster!!

My particulars:

Denver, CO - Metro Area
2012 SL due to arrive in December 2011
Winter Package: Standard
Reserved: 4/20/10
Color: Cayenne
36-Month Lease
My Current Whip: 1997 Honda Accord / 5 Speed Manual / 240K on the ODO / Donating after Leaf's arrival / Plan B: My wife's 2005 Hyundai Tucson
50 mile RT Commute

My minimum RT commute is 39.8 Miles - [14 miles: street (45-50 mph); 5.9 miles: highway (55-65 mph)] X 2. Mix of flat and some rolling hills. I need a little cushion for lunch and errands - thus the 50 mile requirement.

For the Locals: C-470 to Santa Fe to I-25 to 38th Ave

My concerns: Snow & Cold.

Without driving like an extreme hyper-miler (No offense to the Masters on this Forum), can this commute be made all year round? (Without dropping into neutral - I may be overly cautious, but I see this practice as somewhat unsafe. I love feathering -both slow and go pedals - but hope to keep the car always in gear: D/ECO.)

I Do Not have access to charging at work.

L2 at home. Minimal charging infrastructure in the Denver metro area at present.

Extreme cold weather - in the teens - and the 3 to 4 major snow storms each season, are my biggest concerns.

Will a 100% charge be my only option during the winter months - perhaps always? What does 8 hours in the frigid cold do to the Leaf's range if it isn't getting any juice during that period? Will I make the 20 mile commute home? Lights, Heater, Defrost, etc.

I'm very willing to sacrifice cabin heat for the heated seats and steering wheel, but I am not willing to sacrifice safety by not using the defroster when needed.

For the physics lovers: Might my range be slightly better at our Mile-High Altitude? (It works for Kickers, right?) Any idea how much better - as a % of range?

I wish to truly thank all of the Forum Members for their dedication, exceptional insight, and pure enthusiasm for this revolutionary vehicle!

I look forward to sharing my Leaf adventures with you in the very near future!

Sincerely,

AmpUpCO

I confess I don't post as much as a probably could, but I didn't just sorta talk about winter/CWP in another thread...so why not here too while I'm online, lol.

Although I am in Canada, I was not a patient enough person to wait on Nissan Canada to take orders. To that end, this will be my second Canadian winter experience with the LEAF, but the first with the Canadian/CWP version (I just got a '11 LEAF with CWP about 8 weeks ago), so I can answer these questions, 100%

First up, ECO. Once you have had the car for while, it is really a non-starter to get much more range, you learn quickly how to maximize the car. In winter, especially when it is crappy, the conditions almost mimick how the car is attempting to get you to operate it in ECO anyway. It is really a non-starter to get much more range. Where it helps is in controling your climate control consumption. Maybe you eek out a couple extra miles. I'd forget it.

Second. CWP (Cold Weather Package). You are going to see the most benefit between 32F and 55F, maybe 5-6 miles of range on a full discharge (if you are like me and like the cabin fairly cool but my hands and body toasty warm). I find I dont use the heating system at all in the CWP above 45F (8C), below that my feet get cold, so it is active. (it is more like 65F without the CWP LEAF). When temperatures are extreme, your system is going to be working proportionally more get the temperature up, and maintain it, so your savings are less. At 0F, maybe you get an extra 2-3 miles, tops. ie) if its 0F outside, to have the system maintain the 65F inside you need without the CWP, or the 50F you need with the CWP, is not as significant a energy savings as having it be 45F outside, and have the system working to achieve 65F without the package, or not (necessarily) working at all with the CWP doing what it does.

Lastly, "will you need a full charge during really cold, crappy days if you want a carefree 50 miles"?

Yes. 100% yes. I'm not saying you couldn't get away with 80%, but you will be white-knuckling, and driving like a puss...in a freezing cold cabin, several times during the year given your expected driving requirements, so why do it?

That being said, under 50 miles is an easily doable commute throughout the winter, while using the heating controls. My worst was about 55 miles in hell-ish conditions, with the heater on automatic (but on a fairly low setting)...and that is with the 'old and busted' non-CWP. (I will say I was aware potential range issues to be sure, and was driving in a manner to maximize the range, yet not in a manner which would annoy others)

I can't say for sure what the performance of the CWP will be in the extreme cold, as the coldest day so far has been about 20F in the early morning, but like I said, I expect a couple extra miles of range at best in these situations.

PS) You didn't really ask, but the car is 'ok' in my estimation in bad conditions. I have had better, I have had worse. Passable for sure.

 

[mxp]

< cut >

Although I am in Canada, I was not a patient enough person to wait on Nissan Canada to take orders. To that end, this will be my second Canadian winter experience with the LEAF, but the first with the Canadian/CWP version (I just got a '11 LEAF with CWP about 8 weeks ago), so I can answer these questions, 100%

< cut >

For a non-CWP Leaf that is parked outside the garage in 20F temps, will there be any risk of damage to the battery if you charge fully to 100% every few days or so?

 

[montoo]

Is there anything definite about the availability or lack of tax incentives federal or CO in 2012? I just got my delivery quoted as "week of 02 January 2012". Frustrating to miss 2011 by only a week or two.

I too got my charger installed this year to make sure I got that at least.

I also see a "week of 02 January 2012" status on my order now, earlier it was showing Nov 2012.
I think you can talk to the dealer and pay a few days earlier once you know the VIN#, to be able to avail tax benefits, delivery date i think does not matter. I will talk to a Nissan rep to find out.

 

[abasile]

For a non-CWP Leaf that is parked outside the garage in 20F temps, will there be any risk of damage to the battery if you charge fully to 100% every few days or so?

No. (Or else I wouldn't have bought a non-CWP LEAF.) The battery heater in the CWP is only to prevent the battery from freezing in -4 F and lower temperatures (I think -13 F is around where it freezes if left long enough).

Just don't leave the pack at 100% charge for long periods. Time it so that you charge to 100%, then drive off shortly thereafter.

 

[EVDrive]

I drive 50 miles to work each way everyday (9k miles so far) with the heater blasting and arrive with 10-20 miles left... Then I charge. So you will be in way better shape then me. My speed is usually 50- 75mph depending on traffic. Lucky you have the cold weather package. I can only dream. Happy trails.

 

[Herm]

Statik, good to hear from you again..

You keep the car in a heated garage?.. do you pre-heat the cabin prior to driving off?.. I assumed yes to both questions.

 

[Jay]

< cut >

Although I am in Canada, I was not a patient enough person to wait on Nissan Canada to take orders. To that end, this will be my second Canadian winter experience with the LEAF, but the first with the Canadian/CWP version (I just got a '11 LEAF with CWP about 8 weeks ago), so I can answer these questions, 100%

< cut >

For a non-CWP Leaf that is parked outside the garage in 20F temps, will there be any risk of damage to the battery if you charge fully to 100% every few days or so?

This is/was always one of the tradeoffs...the 'not knowing' a lot of things with the non-CWP early models. I can say that it has seen a lot of days below this temperature. Although, it did spend the majority of the winter in a garage or open air parking facility, it has also sat outside for 10-12 hours in temperatures much colder than that.

Needing range, and not knowing my driving schedule from day to day, I always charge 100%, everyday...and I have yet to have any instances pertaining to the cold weather and/or the battery. 1 winter and well over 10K down.

I realize this is probably a high priority/question mark for just about everyone without a CWP that isn't in California. I will certainly keep you/everyone up to date if I have any issues, or loss battery capacity/function. Right now, I would say that if I am ok, then everyone is ok...I doubt any LEAF anywhere has taken the 'stress' that mine has.

---

EDIT/PS: I should note that it is unlikely I have this car long term...so I won't be a cold-weather guinea pig very long. My plan was never really to have multiple, identical EVs. I'm still undecided on what to swap it out for, but I'd be svery surprised if I had it through 'next' winter.

 

[Jay]

Statik, good to hear from you again..

You keep the car in a heated garage?.. do you pre-heat the cabin prior to driving off?.. I assumed yes to both questions.

Thanks Herm, I came out of the woodwork again, lol.

Actually my garages are not heated, and on the road (during the day) I would say 4 out of 5 days it is parked in a exposed, open air garage (the multi-level cement special, lol). I'd like to say I pre-heat the cabin faithfully, I used to, but with time comes laziness/forgetfulness, so not so much in reality...only on the uber cold days.

---

PS: I should note that through the winter, I charge 110 overnight. I'm not 'really' sure this helps, but given my usual 70 miles-ish of driving, and plugging in around 7PM, the car is almost always at around 95% full (or occasionally just finished charging) by 8AM in the morning when I head out.

My thinking is this is some kind of defacto protection for the pack to sustain temperature, and not sit around at 100% in sub freezing for 7-8 hours. This way, while I need 100% (or close to it) every day, the car rarily spends any amount of time at all at capacity, and the pack is not idle overnight below freezing.

Maybe someone with a more technical battery background than myself, can wade in here and tell me if doing this is really of any benefit and/or harm...but it just made sense as a logical thing to do in my mind.

 

[abasile]

Leaving the pack just sitting around at 100% charge is something you want to avoid at any temperature (the owner's manual states this). At both extremes of the SOC range, chemical reactions occur in greater numbers that gradually rob the battery of capacity. Thankfully, in the cold, those reactions do not occur as quickly.

Based on all I've read, leaving the pack sitting idle in subfreezing temperatures (at a "reasonable" SOC) should not be a problem. The point at which the pack itself will start to freeze is much, much lower than the freezing point of water. If anything, it seems that storing the pack in cold temperatures will prolong its life.

My only caution with respect to cold, besides the reduction in range, is that it's probably not ideal to drive the pack really hard when it's cold, i.e., flooring it every time you accelerate. As the rate at which the pack can be charged or discharged is lower in colder temperatures, you are using a greater percentage of its available power. The LEAF's battery management system protects the pack from the worst possible treatment by limiting regenerative braking in the cold (I routinely see this). In excessive cold, the owner's manual states that the car will go into power-limited "turtle" mode. I don't know of anyone who's seen this, though.

 

[kmp647]

What is the lowest # of temp bars you have seen on the battery temp gauge?

I am usually between 4 and 5, but I suspect I will see a 3 bar this winter

2 bars might be the point of the ecu's further restricting power and regen beyond what you have noticed about reduced regen at cold temps

 

[ERG4ALL]

My understanding of the Federal Tax Credit is that it applies to the first 200,000 cars produced by Nissan and the last I knew there are only about 7,000 of them.

 

[Navin]

I've been charging to 80% during the week on 120V. I have the climate control timer set for the morning. The last 2 days (which have been in the mid-30s) in the morning when I get in the car it's already down to 9 bars instead of the usual 10. What I think is happening is the preheating in the colder weather this week is using more energy than the 120V can supply so it's taking some from the battery. I've preheated for a few weeks now and only the last 2 times have I noticed this.

 

[TomT]

Yep, heating can use up to 3 times what L1 charging can provide in extreme conditions.

What I think is happening is the preheating in the colder weather this week is using more energy than the 120V can supply so it's taking some from the battery.

 

[abasile]

What is the lowest # of temp bars you have seen on the battery temp gauge?

Even with repeated nighttime temps near 20 F, and daytime highs around 30 F, with outdoor parking, our battery temp gauge has never dropped below four bars. It remained at four bars for days at a time, though, never rising to five bars until encountering higher ambient temperatures. (Our weather has been relatively warm for the last week, but we are expecting more cold and possibly snow tomorrow.)

 

[AmpUpCO]

Thank you all once again for your insight and advice.

You've put most of my concerns to rest.

Statik does ask a good question: Is charging at 110v throughout the night better for the battery than 220v charging during cold temps? It seems logical that longer rather than faster charging would help to keep the battery warmer longer...

Thoughts from the battery gurus?

Also, I do plan on charging to 100% during the winter months by setting my departure timer - so as not to hold that charge for any significant length of time before hitting the road. (From reading the many posts on this forum, it's been made clear that doing so is a danger). No danger during the day, however, because the battery will be sufficiently discharged while parked (unplugged) at the office.

 

[abasile]

Statik does ask a good question: Is charging at 110v throughout the night better for the battery than 220v charging during cold temps? It seems logical that longer rather than faster charging would help to keep the battery warmer longer...

While I could be wrong and Statik could be onto something, this seems like splitting hairs. At 3.3 kW and below for L2 and L1 charging, the battery really doesn't seem to heat up much, until it approaches 100% SOC. Driving the car pulls more current through the battery and seems to heat it more than most L1/L2 charging.

By the way, we just returned home and our LEAF's battery temperature is at five bars, after ~60 miles of driving today. It is quite windy right now and we are anticipating a nighttime low below 20 F. Even though the car is going to be charging in the early morning hours, I anticipate that the battery temperature will be down to four bars when I check it in the morning.

 

[evnow]

Statik does ask a good question: Is charging at 110v throughout the night better for the battery than 220v charging during cold temps? It seems logical that longer rather than faster charging would help to keep the battery warmer longer....

While it may not make much difference - it definitely won't hurt. Probably a good test to check the temperature at night while charging .... (do we know the can msg ?)

 

[Jay]

Statik does ask a good question: Is charging at 110v throughout the night better for the battery than 220v charging during cold temps? It seems logical that longer rather than faster charging would help to keep the battery warmer longer....

While it may not make much difference - it definitely won't hurt. Probably a good test to check the temperature at night while charging .... (do we know the can msg ?)

I'd like to reiterate, while I know all the battery companies and their various products pretty well, I really have no background whatsoever on a technical level...it just made sense to me, so I figured why not do it?

Here is my two main reasons for always charging 110 overnight in the winter:

A) I know a 100% charge sitting around at 20F for an extended time every day is bad news...I don't want that. And on any given day, I need 70-ish miles of range. A 80% charge is NOT a viable option.

To that end, because 110 is so darn slow, I know that when I plug in at night around 6pm with a couple bars left, if I decide to leave the house at 7AM, I am going to have 11 bars in the morning and be around a 90% charge. If I decide to leave a couple hours later, at 9 or 10am, the car will still be just nearing a 100% charge. My car will never actually hit 100% this winter, or if it does, only for moments. If I decide to stay home, I just flick the car off at 9 or 10 AM. Additionally, if for some reason I do forget, the car is now at 100% during the warmenst part of the day.

On 220, I'm at 80 or 100%, and thats it...whatever I choose the night prior, it will sit dormant at temperature for long periods. Even if I attempt to time it for my expected leave time in the morning, variance will still make it impossible to get 'just under' 100 but over 80. Not to mention I have to do all that analytical 'math', and subsequent fidgeting whenever I bring it in for the night. /pass

B) Battery temperature management. This is the part I am not really sure of the benefit...so any thoughts from people smarter than I on the subject would be great.

My thinking is that overnight (which is both the coldest and has the potential for the longest high charge dormant period for the car), when on a 110/trickle, the battery is active throughout the entire night...meaning it has a much higher temperature than it would if its just sitting there at 20F, thereby negating the extreme overnight cold...also the car stays at its lowest potential charge level at every point of the night, right up until it gets into the sweet spot (80-100%)I need, just as I leave in the morning.

Thoughts? (Again, I'm not making a case here for 'is L1 better than L2 overall', just that I think it is situationally better during periods of extreme cold...and possibly is better when overnight charges close to 100% are required)