Yes "clean diesel" really is clean. (ACEEE.org)

[Herm]

Check all the new VW gas engine cars, they all get a 10 rating on smog emissions. You cant live without CO2, you will hyperventilate.

I don't see any. The highest I see is 9 out of 10 on smog score.

You are right, I misread the scale, they score 9 not 10.. here is a listing of all VW:

http://www.driveclean.ca.gov/searchresults.php?year=2013&make=Volkswagen&model=All&x=42&y=14" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Herm]

You cant live without CO2, you will hyperventilate.

Herm, you have it backwards. Hyperventilation can cause low CO2 in the blood, not the other way around. If your level of CO2 in the blood is too low you may stop breathing. If you have too much CO2 in your blood you will hyperventilate, and if the level gets too high you will die:

Why do they make you breathe into a paper bag when you are hyperventilating?

 

[Smidge204]

You cant live without CO2, you will hyperventilate.

This is ALSO stupid. The amount of CO2 in the air has nothing to do with the amount of oxygen in the air, plant respiration notwithstanding. I can put you in a room with 80% nitrogen, 20% oxygen and nothing else and you'd be perfectly fine.

Sometimes I get the feeling a whole lot of climate change "debate" would clear up if people just got a grip on the basics. :roll:
=Smidge=

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

You cant live without CO2, you will hyperventilate.

This is ALSO stupid. The amount of CO2 in the air has nothing to do with the amount of oxygen in the air, plant respiration notwithstanding. I can put you in a room with 80% nitrogen, 20% oxygen and nothing else and you'd be perfectly fine.

Sometimes I get the feeling a whole lot of climate change "debate" would clear up if people just got a grip on the basics. :roll:
=Smidge=

gee, what did you expect with a title "Clean Diesel?"

 

[Stoaty]

Why do they make you breathe into a paper bag when you are hyperventilating?

That is no longer recommended, see here for a description:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperventilation_syndrome" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[theaveng]

(sigh). I truly don't understand. Why do people have such a hard time grasping the "diesels are cleaner now" concept? Diesel engineers aren't just sitting on their butts doing nothing. They are improving the engines to make them cleaner. TO ANSWER YOU: Ya know how Honda insights and Civics produce high NOx levels (because of lean burn engines).

Well the catalyst traps & neutralizes the NOx coming out of the Hondas. That's what the diesels do as well. That's why even though ULEV qualification requires them to output very little NOx, the modern TDI cars received the rating from California's Air Resource Board. The smoggy state of California gave diesels their second-highest clean rating.

Another major change is the fuel itself. Diesel only has 15ppm of sulfur, which makes it cleaner than gasoline (50ppm).

 

[theaveng]

LEAF/Volt
LEAF/ICE
LEAF/Hybrid (thats me!)

You should add LEAF/JettaTDI to that list (or Golf or Passat or Beetle). Though they are diesel they are rated by ACEEE.org as cleaner than the midsize hybrids (like Camry Hybrid or Accord Hybrid) and all gasoline ICE cars (except cruzeEco).

 

[Herm]

(sigh). I truly don't understand. Why do people have such a hard time grasping the "diesels are cleaner now" concept?

No one has any issue with that, everyone remembers the smell and soot of old diesels.. the issue is when you compare the NOx emissions with gasoline cars.. but CARB is satisfied and they have the biggest stake in that problem. Bringing up new diesels up to par has been an expensive process.. more expensive fuel, engines, increased maintenance and lower reliability. The issue now is that clean diesel VW style does not pencil out anymore from an economic or pollution viewpoint.. no competition at all with a Prius.

 

[Stoaty]

(sigh). I truly don't understand. Why do people have such a hard time grasping the "diesels are cleaner now" concept?

Everyone understands that diesels are cleaner now, the problem is that the bar has been raised and the "clean diesels" don't make the grade compared to other available options.

 

[theaveng]

What other options? In the category of 4/5 seat cars, I'd sooner drive a TDI then a dull Prius. The MPG is the same, they are near-identical in cleanliness, but the TDI has more body types (beetle or midsize or hatchback or sedan or luxury (Mercedes)), plus a stick shift option, and more torque (acceleration).

CARB is satisfied and they have the biggest stake in that problem. Bringing up new diesels up to par has been an expensive process.. more expensive fuel, engines

Worthwhile though. This country burns more diesel than gasoline, due to diesel powered 18-wheelers driving all over the place, plus diesel trains, buses, construction vehicles, and generators for electrical backup. Dropping the sulfur from 500 to 15 ppm automatically makes them cleaner (lower SOx) and new models will run better catalytic converters so they can be CARB-compliant too.

And yeah CARB banned VW & Mercedes diesels in 2005. Not clean enough. If CARB is willing to let them back in the state, it's because they are confident the cars won't exacerbate the smog problem (i.e. they are clean enough to be labeled ULEV-II).

 

[Herm]

If CARB is willing to let them back in the state, it's because they are confident the cars won't exacerbate the smog problem (i.e. they are clean enough to be labeled ULEV-II).

Or someone paid them off.. you know how corrupt the usual public servant is.

 

[DaveEV]

You should add LEAF/JettaTDI to that list (or Golf or Passat or Beetle). Though they are diesel they are rated by ACEEE.org as cleaner than the midsize hybrids (like Camry Hybrid or Accord Hybrid) and all gasoline ICE cars (except cruzeEco).

Why does the EPA rate the Jetta TDI as significantly dirtier than the gas version?

Edit: I was reading the EPA charts wrong. Bit still stands that the cleanest 2012 diesel is rated 6 on an air pollution score while your typical gas car is rated 8+.

 

[theaveng]

I see the Jetta TDI and Jetta gasoline get the same rating from California: 6. They also received an EPA Smartway certification "for VERY GOOD environmental performers relative to other vehicles. They must attain a BETTER-THAN-AVERAGE Smog Score." Repeat: Better than average (which would be 5, not 8).

Or someone paid the CARB off.. you know how corrupt the usual public servant is.

Apparently Alex Jones and Glenn Beck are not the only conspiracists. There are some among the liberal environmentalists too.
Sorry but NO I do not think the CARB was paid-off. The car was below their NOx, HC, PM, CO limits for a ULEV-II vehicle so that's why it carries the label.

 

[WetEV]

Nice Bridge you got there.

 

[mrradon]

I work in the Heavy Duty Truck industry. With the 2007 CARB/EPA requirement for DPF's (Diesel Particulate Filters) the particulate side of the emissions was knocked way way way down, this was implemented concurrent with LOW SULFUR Diesel fuel.. Then with 2010 the SCR (Selective Catalytic Reduction) can was added using DEF (Diesel Exhaust Fluid) by all OEM's besides International - who now have to adopt the DPF/SCR system.

A 2010 diesel truck running in Los Angels actually filters the air. Granted the CO2 emissions are there, but the particulates and ozone are eliminated.

With 2013 emissions have been refined even further and OBDII is being rolled out. Yes, Diesel is clean.

Also, fuel economy. A well spec'd highway flyer loaded at 80,000 pounds can average 7mpg coast to coast.

I also hail from Europe, where most cars are diesel and get 50+mpg. Only the US is backwards sticking with gasoline.

REF INFO:
Diesel Sulfur Content (PPM):
1994-2007: 500
2007-Present: 15
Particulate Matter (g/hp-hr):
1994-2007: 0.10
2007-Present: 0.01
Nitrogen Oxide (g/hp-hr):
1994-1998: 5.0
1998-2002: 4.0
2002-2007: 2.5
2007-2010: 1.2
2010-Present: 0.2

 

[cwerdna]

I also hail from Europe, where most cars are diesel and get 50+mpg. Only the US is backwards sticking with gasoline.

I find most of your diesel emissions claims suspect as they're the type of thing I hear from diesel fanboys. Regardless, care to point to some of these "most cars"? Usually inflated mileage claims are due to a far more lax European FE test and the use of larger Imperial gallons instead of smaller US gallons.

For example, the '12 Prius (from http://carfueldata.direct.gov.uk/search-new-or-used-cars.aspx?vid=23492" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, you may have to visit the page and then copy/paste the above URL in to address bar) gets 76.3 miles per gallon on the extra urban test. Of course, that's in larger Imperial gallons and in an inflated test.

 

[DaveEV]

I see the Jetta TDI and Jetta gasoline get the same rating from California: 6. They also received an EPA Smartway certification "for VERY GOOD environmental performers relative to other vehicles. They must attain a BETTER-THAN-AVERAGE Smog Score." Repeat: Better than average (which would be 5, not 8).

Ah, you're right. The regular Jetta sucks as bad as the TDI (btw, I see that CARB scores it a 5, not a 6). You have to get a Jetta GLI (2.0l turbo) from California or one with the 5 cyl 2.5l gas engine to get a 9 (and a PZEV rating).

BTW, any car that gets 26 mpg+ and an EPA smog score of 5 qualifies for the EPA Smart Way label. Not exactly demanding.

 

[Stoaty]

REF INFO:
Diesel Sulfur Content (PPM):
1994-2007: 500
2007-Present: 15
Particulate Matter (g/hp-hr):
1994-2007: 0.10
2007-Present: 0.01
Nitrogen Oxide (g/hp-hr):
1994-1998: 5.0
1998-2002: 4.0
2002-2007: 2.5
2007-2010: 1.2
2010-Present: 0.2

Well, a 90% reduction in particulates is a big improvement, but how do those particulate figures compare to, say, a Prius? Does a Prius emit any particulates? In other words, are we talking about clean (relative to ICE), or just cleaner than in the past?

 

[cwerdna]

Well, a 90% reduction in particulates is a big improvement, but how do those particulate figures compare to, say, a Prius? Does a Prius emit any particulates? In other words, are we talking about clean (relative to ICE), or just cleaner than in the past?

I finally did some digging to find where some documents others have posted on Priuschat came from. I found them at http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/cert.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Examples:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2012/volkswagen_pc_a0070305_2d0_u2_diesel.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/pcldtmdv/2012/toyota_pc_a0140763_1d8_pz_hevge.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From a quick glance at the @UL (useful life) values, it appears the VW "clean diesel" is much dirtier than a Prius, w/many values many times that of a Prius, some of them over an order of magnitude worse.

 

[DaveEV]

I finally did some digging to find where some documents others have posted on Priuschat came from. I found them at http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/onroad/cert/cert.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Thanks, I was trying to find a way to look those up. Comparing the Jetty TDI to the gas powered Jettas, the TDI is still also much dirtier than all the gas powered variants.


The conspiracy theorist in me found this news article somewhat coincidental...
German automotive companies launch “clean-diesel” marketing campaign in US