What will a 2011 leaf be worth in 2019?

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davewill said:
I see no reason to think that battery capacity vs. size, in a mass-market vehicle, can double in any reasonable time frame, certainly not by 2019.
Maybe because every university, national lab, large battery/chemical conglomerate sees the writing on the wall and is pouring money and time and effort into this very goal? That's reason enough for me.

Personally, while I don't see a steady improvement percent per year, I do hold out hope for "quantum jump" improvement(s) along the way, possibly with solid state batteries at scale in the 5-10 year time frame.
 
minispeed said:
To get this post back on topic I'll say it'll be worth $3000 if the battery is in good shape.

I've found that $3000 is the level off price of most cars that earn a reputation of being reliable...
Not an entirely unreasonable rule of thumb...for cars that need gas to run... and also have the higher maintenance and repair costs of ICEVs.

Certainly, the relatively low gas prices have reduced used BEV prices today, and will continue do the same if low gas prices persist in the future.

I'd say the rule of thumb for BEVs prices will be the price of a comparable ICEV, plus ~2 years of expected average operating costs savings, which in turn depends largely on future gas prices.

For example, if we have ~$5 per gallon gas prices in 2019, resulting ~$1,000 per year BEV advantage in operating costs, $3,000 = 2 x $1,000 = $5,000 retail price for a 2011 LEAF with ~16 to 18 kWh capacity.

$2 a gallon gas? then the prices of the BEV and the ICEV will be comparable.

If car buyers acted rationally, the BEV price premium would be larger, and required payback period would be longer.

But if car buyers were rational, there would never be so many money-pit ICEVs on the road in the first place.

Used car buyers tend to be far more sensitive to operating costs, especially for low-priced vehicles where the annual operating costs can exceed the purchase price.

Which is why a ten year old civic may cost more than ten year old Jaguar that costs several times as much when new.

And why, a ten year old 2012 LEAF, may sell for more than a ten year old 2012 Tesla S, in another ~seven years.
 
edatoakrun said:
minispeed said:
To get this post back on topic I'll say it'll be worth $3000 if the battery is in good shape.

I've found that $3000 is the level off price of most cars that earn a reputation of being reliable...
Not an entirely unreasonable rule of thumb...for cars that need gas to run... and also have the higher maintenance and repair costs of ICEVs.

Certainly, the relatively low gas prices have reduced used BEV prices today, and will continue do the same if low gas prices persist in the future.

I'd say the rule of thumb for BEVs prices will be the price of a comparable ICEV, plus ~2 years of expected average operating costs savings, which in turn depends largely on future gas prices.

For example, if we have ~$5 per gallon gas prices in 2019, resulting ~$1,000 per year BEV advantage in operating costs, $3,000 = 2 x $1,000 = $5,000 retail price for a 2011 LEAF with ~16 to 18 kWh capacity.

$2 a gallon gas? then the prices of the BEV and the ICEV will be comparable.

If car buyers acted rationally, the BEV price premium would be larger, and required payback period would be longer.

But if car buyers were rational, there would never be so many money-pit ICEVs on the road in the first place.

Used car buyers tend to be far more sensitive to operating costs, especially for low-priced vehicles where the annual operating costs can exceed the purchase price.

Which is why a ten year old civic may cost more than ten year old Jaguar that costs several times as much when new.

And why, a ten year old 2012 LEAF, may sell for more than a ten year old 2012 Tesla S, in another ~seven years.

The ten year old civic also costs more than the Jaguar because of anticipated repair costs, not always actual. Jaguar Ford designed V8s have proven to be very reliable but they still suffer from the reputation that they will break more often and cost an arm and a leg to fix.

Just like many people I talk to about cars still think that BEVs will be much more expensive to replace the used car market that pays no attention to new cars will eventually be new to BEVs when the leaf drops down to $5000. They will have all the same reservations about switching to BEV that we hear now from people. Reliability is key and the unknown is scary. Right now for most of us the switch to BEV was done with a lot of research and the comfort that most of us could probably take a hit on the vehicle if we needed to trade it in due to lack of range or have a back up car. For a single car low income family those options don't exsist.

For those who drive limited miles, under 40 a day cheap and reliable will be better served by the volt. With degraded batteries it would be a good assumption that a 2011 Leaf couldn't do much more than 40 miles in the winter by 2019. Even at $5 a gal a 40 mile per day 5 day a week drive is only $1300 a year in a used prius or any other car that gets over 40mpg. There will be plenty by 2019. I don't think people will pay more for a car that costs them less per month on gas/energy until they start spending more than $200 a month on it and those people probably won't be served by the range 2011s offer in 2019.

On the flip side I think that used car prices might be driven up a bit by parents buying them for kids in school. There are a lot of advantages in buying a limited range car for a teenager. They can't go cruising all night and can't drive super fast and have range. Also many of those buyers will be very educated and able to crunch the numbers and see the long term savings.
 
How about the whole EV market folding by 2019 due to feds pulling the tax credit and general lack of meaningful sales and Leaf becoming a collector's car? :lol:
 
minispeed said:
With degraded batteries it would be a good assumption that a 2011 Leaf couldn't do much more than 40 miles in the winter by 2019.

With a brand-new battery, my 2012 Leaf couldn't do much more than 40 miles in the winter. And I live south of you in Syracuse, which doesn't get as cold as Ontario. With degraded batteries, I would assume 25 miles anywhere with a real winter (such as Ontario).

I agree there will be a floor on the price, but I think $3k is likely generous. Frankly, if my 2012 Leaf is worth half that in 2019, I'd be pleasantly surprised. I think the floor for ~80 mile BEVs will be more like $1k. They will be a steal at that price, but I don't think people will be educated enough about their benefits for many people to realize it.

Then again, it doesn't directly affect me, as I plan on keeping the car around until my currently Kindergarten-age son is ready for his first car. Then, as pointed out above, I will be glad that he has a short-range but reliable car. Plenty to get to school / friends' houses / a job, but not enough to head out of state on a whim or something.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
I plan on keeping the car around until my currently Kindergarten-age son is ready for his first car.
Hilarious. Your 16-yo will look at you (in 2026) and think his old man fell off a strawberry... I've got 4 kids 21 to 30. I know what I speak of.

The only thing that might save the life of that very old (creepy) Leaf is aftermarket wizards that will hopefully crop up from the ranks of newly unemployed auto mechanics able to make magic and fit it with future superfast charging and a 5x size (in kWh) battery.

And that's a definite maybe. :)
 
ILETRIC said:
GetOffYourGas said:
I plan on keeping the car around until my currently Kindergarten-age son is ready for his first car.
Hilarious. Your 16-yo will look at you (in 2026) and think his old man fell off a strawberry... I've got 4 kids 21 to 30. I know what I speak of.

Maybe so, but when I was 16, I was just happy to have a car!

ILETRIC said:
The only thing that might save the life of that very old (creepy) Leaf is aftermarket wizards that will hopefully crop up from the ranks of newly unemployed auto mechanics able to make magic and fit it with future superfast charging and a 5x size (in kWh) battery.

And that's a definite maybe. :)

I think the whole point would be that the car can only travel within a 40-mile radius of home. For me, that includes the city of Syracuse and all of Onondaga County. If he wants to upgrade the car, let him get a job and save up his own money. Maybe I'll change my mind in 10 years, but maybe not.

This whole discussion is really speculation anyway - it assumes that I will be able to resist upgrading to a 200-mile BEV coming off lease in about 5-6 years from now. And whenever I bring up the topic to my wife, she just hits and and tells me to stop making our kids grow up - that they're growing up too fast as it is!
 
derkraut said:
Valdemar said:
How about the whole EV market folding by 2019 due to feds pulling the tax credit and general lack of meaningful sales and Leaf becoming a collector's car? :lol:
A very plausible possibility, imho. :|
I don't think it will be possible to put the EV genie back in the bottle (again). There is already plenty of value in the current crop of cars without any subsidies.
 
ILETRIC said:
GetOffYourGas said:
I plan on keeping the car around until my currently Kindergarten-age son is ready for his first car.
Hilarious. Your 16-yo will look at you (in 2026) and think his old man fell off a strawberry... I've got 4 kids 21 to 30. I know what I speak of.

The only thing that might save the life of that very old (creepy) Leaf is aftermarket wizards that will hopefully crop up from the ranks of newly unemployed auto mechanics able to make magic and fit it with future superfast charging and a 5x size (in kWh) battery.

And that's a definite maybe. :)


I think that the aftermarket will never supply an upgraded leaf battery with extra capacity. The biggest problem is shipping. The things are huge! For a business to do this they need cores so they would need your old battery back. There aren't enough leafs for this business to pop up in every town and the leafs can't easily take road trips to get the job done. To add 2 way shipping on these batteries will kill the profit and the market will evaporate as the first gen leafs age. There will probably never be a market for the business to transition into upgrading second gen packs if they give 150 miles+ even a well worn pack will give enough millage to satisfy it's 2nd or 3rd owner.

By the time a used leaf hits $5000 if you're driving around town a lot and returning home or to your business to charge the simple answer would be just having 2 leafs.
 
minispeed said:
By the time a used leaf hits $5000 if you're driving around town a lot and returning home or to your business to charge the simple answer would be just having 2 leafs.

I was just thinking the other day that if the price for a used leaf with 2 or 3 bars down gets below the cost of replacing the battery I'd just buy another and add it to the rotation.

Currently replace the battery is something like $6000.

I can sell my Prius for more than that.
 
mbender said:
davewill said:
I see no reason to think that battery capacity vs. size, in a mass-market vehicle, can double in any reasonable time frame, certainly not by 2019.
Maybe because every university, national lab, large battery/chemical conglomerate sees the writing on the wall and is pouring money and time and effort into this very goal? That's reason enough for me.

Personally, while I don't see a steady improvement percent per year, I do hold out hope for "quantum jump" improvement(s) along the way, possibly with solid state batteries at scale in the 5-10 year time frame.
That doesn't get it into a mass-market vehicle. The press of the last 15 years is full of pie-in-the-sky battery tech claims that aren't in our cars and never will be.
 
davewill said:
The press of the last 15 years is full of pie-in-the-sky battery tech claims that aren't in our cars and never will be.
But investments in auto-battery tech hasn't been great in the last 15 years - more like last 5.

In any case Leaf 2 should have about the double the range for about the same price. That is double in 6 years.
 
evnow said:
But investments in auto-battery tech hasn't been great in the last 15 years - more like last 5.

In any case Leaf 2 should have about the double the range for about the same price. That is double in 6 years.
Sigh... :roll: As I said, halving the price is a possibility, but I didn't think we would see half the size.
 
davewill said:
Sigh... :roll: As I said, halving the price is a possibility, but I didn't think we would see half the size.
You can't get double size battery in the same car - if the size doesn't come down.
 
evnow said:
You can't get double size battery in the same car - if the size doesn't come down.
Who says it's the same car? I thought we were talking about a LEAF 2, not a refit for the current LEAF. And who says it didn't come down? I just don't think they've doubled their density, or will very soon.
 
minispeed said:
To get this post back on topic I'll say it'll be worth $3000 if the battery is in good shape. I've found that $3000 is the level off price of most cars that earn a reputation of being reliable. Doesn't matter how old they get if they aren't super high millage and can pass a safety they tend to hold $3000 for a long time. Look at old civics, rav 4, crv, golfs, camry, accord. Find an add for one that has already passed needed safety checks for under $3000 in the prime used car times and they sell like hot cakes. I tried buying an old civic hatch or vw golf around that price and almost every add I replied to it was sold. I got a saab wagon instead.

I think the limited range and the BEV newness to the type of buyers looking at sub $5000 cars will get it down to $3000 a bit quicker than other cars but that it will probably stay there for a while.
Well, the 2011 Leaf auction thread is predicting $3K by May 2016:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=8354&start=330#p422172
 
Reddy said:
Leaf auction thread is predicting $3K by May 2016...
Obsolescence...hitting us hard, is it not? Proudly built in by Nissan. No wonder top people involved are gone.
 
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