What? Stuck on the middle of the road for couple of minutes

[cwerdna]

The state diagram doesn't seem complete. You should be able to go from ACC or ON (IG-ON in Toyota parlance) to READY by putting your foot on the brake and pushing power.

(I have no Leaf yet but as I said, am familiar w/Altima Hybrid (which also has Intelligent Key) and Prius SKS behavior. I actually went over this behavior and all the states w/my mom a few days ago. She had her NAH since early 08 but recently seems to be either encountering a car problem or (most likely) user error/forgetfulness. I don't know since she seemed unwilling to listen carefully when I last demonstrated. :roll: )

• LOCK (Normal parking position)
  The power switch can only be locked in this position.
  The power switch will be unlocked when it is pushed to the ACC position while the driver is carrying the Intelligent Key.
  What?

• 
  Seems like a case of Engrish (http://www.engrish.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.
  
  Maybe they meant steering wheel? Normally, cars for ages have locked their steering wheels (so you can't turn them) as an anti-theft measure when the car is totally OFF w/the key removed. I believe your steering wheel should be locked when you first enter your car w/o pushing any buttons inside.
  

  [*] ON
  This position turns on the EV (Electric Vehicle) system and electrical accessories.
  Whats the difference between this and READY

  You can't drive in this mode. The HVAC and stereo will work. You can raise and lower the windows.
  
  In a Prius, this would drain the 12 volt. This is akin to getting into a regular car, turning the key forward to ON/RUN but not further forward to start. In an ICEV, the engine wouldn't be running and thus neither the alternator --> same result, 12 volt being drained.
  
  This is a safety feature to as it forces you to be able to physically reach the brake pedal and power switch (vs. a small child). This is also just like the safety feature where you have to have your foot on the brake to shift out of Park (brought on by Audi SUA fisaco). This is similar to manual transmission cars forcing you to press the clutch while starting.
  

  [*] OFF
  The EV (Electric Vehicle) system can be turned off.
  The power switch cannot be placed in the LOCK position until the vehicle is in the P (Park) position. What does this mean

Not sure, this might be a case of Engrish or carryover from another manual. In regular automatic transmission cars w/a floor mounted shifter, if you turn the key to OFF while still in a gear other than Park (e.g. R, D, N, etc.) you won't be able to remove the key and may be prevented from turning the key back further to LOCK (which then lets you remove the key). I've made this mistake a few times before.

Some cars, like my mom's Altima Hybrid IIRC (w/floor shifter) will let out a bunch of beeps if you shut it off while still in Drive.

On my Prius, it doesn't matter. I can be in Drive and shut the power off. It'll actually shift itself to Park before shutting off as the Prius has a joystick that returns back to a center position after release (like the Leaf's shfit lever).

Take a step back and look for all these same positions and states on a car w/key, esp. one that's not manual. (Older?) GM cars make you turn the key backwards (toward the driver) to go to ACC mode. For them, going from backward to forward was ACC -> LOCK -> OFF -> ON -> START.

In normal driving or stopping (for a traffic light, traffic, etc.), you should NOT be futzing w/the power button. You should get in, put foot on brake, push power. You shouldn't be futzing w/the power button until you've parked and are about to leave the car.

I haven't re-read all the posts and responses yet and we were all unclear how you got into the bad state.

 

[garygid]

Many of the descriptions and drawings in the manuals,
especially in the service manual, are clearly from another car.

Some things accurately describe the LEAF, others do not,
and some are a mixture of the other manual and new LEAF
information. Hopefully they will imptove over time.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Ha.

Going a little OT, in the manuals of my former 02 Maxima and 04 350Z, there were some semi-funny/odd carryovers that I later learned had to do w/Japanese habits.
(The below is from my 02 Maxima manual and doesn't apply to Leafers as Leafs don't have Xenon lights.)

The life of xenon headlights will be shortened by frequent on-off operation. It is generally desirable not to turn off the headlights for short intervals, (for example, when the vehicle stops at a traffic signal)...

To an American, like me, I was puzzled.

I later learned that in Japan, it's a frequent habit that Japanese drivers do the above out of politeness to the guy waiting on the other side. Sure enough, when I next went to Japan, I spotted tons of cars doing that. They'd turn them back on when the light turned green/when they started moving.

 

[garygid]

I have been "stuck" in some manner similar to this,
perhaps twice, and quickly shut the car Off, and restarted.

However, I do generally do not shift the LEAF into Park at stoplights,
there is no real benefit from doing so. Occasionally I have shifted briefly
into Reverse, to better see what is behind me.

 

[raghu1111]

Engrish aside, Nissan seems to forget this is not a traditional internal combustion car. It is one thing if tried to "recreate" traditional car experience and did a good job, but seems be very inconsistent.

A traditional car has "ON" and "IGNITION" positions since we don't need the inanition system firing all the time. For an EV there is no ignition. ON and READY makes no sense.. (there could some minor implementation difference (because of 'since there is a state, why not use it' attitude), but there need not be..).

"LOCK" state is mystery.. there is no effort to explain it in the manual at all. If I have to take a guess, I think once it goes into the LOCK state, it requires "communication from the intelligent key". May be intelligent key is not required while going from ACC to READY, for e.g.

These are the types of things we should not have to guess what it means.

All of this leaves a bad taste of thought put into this car by Nissan.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
ON vs. READY does make some sense. As I said, it's more than ACC as your power windows and HVAC should work in ON but not in ACC. I'd guess the heated seats and heated steering wheel should work in ON as well.

If you didn't put your foot on the brake while pushing power, are you proposing that it go from LOCK/OFF to ACC and then back to OFF, thus eliminating ON as a state? Or maybe ACC should be eliminated? You still wouldn't be in READY mode and wouldn't be able to drive...

Nissan's been shipping cars w/Intelligent Key System for a quite awhile. I don't know when it first started on Nissan-branded vehicles, but probably started around 2006 (for model year 07 cars, since the 07 Altima had it as an option and was the 1st model year of that generation of Altima. Previous ones had keys that you turn.). It might've begun on Infiniti earlier.

To have 1 car (the Leaf) have different states and behaviors from the rest of their products could be weird too.

(AFAIK, the first Toyota-branded car w/Smart Key System was the 04 Prius, that shipped in late 03. Behavior's virtually identical to my mom's 07 NAH.)

Re: "LOCK", I'm looking a the 07 Altima Hybrid manual, there are references to steering wheel lock, that seem mostly omitted from the '13 Leaf manual. Examples from 07 NAH manual:
page 2-24:

Steering lock release malfunction indicator
This indicator appears when the steering wheel cannot be released from the LOCK position.
If this indicator appears, push the push-button ignition switch while lightly turning the steering wheel right and left.

p. 3-6:

Because the steering wheel is locked electrically, unlocking the steering wheel with the ignition switch in the LOCK position is impossible when the vehicle battery is completely discharged. Unlocking the steering wheel is impossible even if the Intelligent Key is inserted into the Intelligent Key port.

(The key port's not on the Leaf. It's used on the NAH in the event of a dead fob battery.)

page 5-7:

The ignition switch is equipped with an anti-theft steering lock device.
...
In order for the steering wheel to be locked, it must be turned about 1/8 of a right or left turn from the straight up position.
To lock the steering wheel, push the ignition switch to the LOCK position. To unlock the steering wheel, push the ignition switch while slightly turning the steering wheel right and left.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steering_wheel" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; says:

With the introduction of federal vehicle regulation in the United States in 1968, FMVSS 114 required the impairment of steering wheel rotation (or transmission locked in "park") to hinder motor vehicle theft; in most vehicles this is accomplished when the ignition key is removed from the ignition lock. See steering lock.

FMVSS==Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards

I found http://www.nhtsa.gov/staticfiles/nvs/pdf/TP-114-04.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; which has FMVSS 114 test procedures and seems to discuss many of the behaviors I mentioned.

 

[planet4ever]

I think I may have reproduced raghu1111's problem on my 2011, and it illuminates one additional twist to the above discussion that I was not aware of before. Scenario:

1. Come to a stop using brake, in D, ECO, whatever.
2. Keeping brake down, press Park.
   • Dash says P; green car lit
3. Release brake.
4. Shift to Drive.
   • I hear a beep, but nothing changes. This is as expected, since you must have the brake pressed to shift into gear.
5. Press brake and hit power button to power off.
6. Hit it again with brake still pressed to power back up.
   • System may power up with no green car!!

This doesn't seem to make sense, does it? We know that you can power off by pressing the power button once with the brake pressed (actually, with it either pressed or not). We know that you can power up to ready from off by pressing the button once with the brake pressed. So what is going on here? Let's try one more test:

1. Come to a stop using brake, in D, ECO, whatever.
2. Keeping brake down, press Power.
   • The car shuts down as expected.
3. Wait for it to finish powering down, wait a bit longer, then press Power twice with the brake still down.
   • System may power up with no green car!!

The manual does tell us that you can get to ON (not READY) by pressing the power button twice, but that was listed under "without depressing the brake pedal" and I always assumed that was the only time it would work that way. I guess it turns out that if you punch the button twice close together you always get to ON state. Even if you started in READY state. They do say that punching it three times close together always gets you to OFF.

Oh, in case you haven't guessed, the business about Park in my first test has nothing to do with anything. I just threw that in because it was a big part of what had confused raghu1111 in the first place.

Ray

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Interesting... which again goes back to my statement of not mucking w/the power button in normal operation.

However, if some weird glitch happens like what garygid says he hit, then the above is helpful.

Yeah, the rapid fire 3 presses of the power button as an emergency power off is in the manual and is a Nissan thing. Toyota doesn't have that but IIRC, they will be adding that and (if memory serves) might be retrofitting old cars to add that. On Toyotas w/SKS, only press + hold for a few seconds is an emergency shutdown...

 

[RegGuheert]

I made extensive comments on our JD Power feedback form about the complete lack of explanation in the manual of how the 1/0 button in the LEAF works. Thanks for raghu1111 for pointing out the changes in the 2013 manual. Unfortunately, it's still not correct. And here we are over two years in still trying to figure this thing out...

There have been multiple incidents of people not being able to drive after putting the car in park. If this ever happens to my wife, it would likely be some time before I could get here back in the car!

 

[davewill]

The state diagram doesn't seem complete. You should be able to go from ACC or ON (IG-ON in Toyota parlance) to READY by putting your foot on the brake and pushing power.

But you CAN'T. Once you get into ON state, you have to release the brake and turn the car all the way off before you can enter ready state. You can sit there all day long pressing the power button trying to get into READY, but it won't happen if you don't release the brake...which no one thinks to do when they're stuck in the middle of the street.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Interesting. I stand corrected.

That's definitely different than Toyota behavior and IIRC, also different from my mom's NAH behavior. I don't live w/my parents so it'll be interesting to confirm if that's a difference between NAH and the Leaf.

 

[raghu1111]

Wow! need to read through last few posts carefully, especially thorough posts from cwerdna, thanks.

meanwhile :
Hey Nissan, how did you manage to mess up the THE most important button in the car so badly? Whats with disabling 'READY' unless brake is released. You have 100 other buttons in the car, you could have added a 'ACC' button rather than confusing yourself and everyone else.

 

[raghu1111]

Whats with disabling 'READY' unless brake is released.

Correction : verified that this is not the case. i.e. pretty much in any other state, if I press the brake and then press power, car does go into READY state.

will try out what planet4ever mentioned above.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Might be a difference between '11 and '12 vs. '13 Leafs.

 

[planet4ever]

The state diagram doesn't seem complete. You should be able to go from ACC or ON (IG-ON in Toyota parlance) to READY by putting your foot on the brake and pushing power.

But you CAN'T. Once you get into ON state, you have to release the brake and turn the car all the way off before you can enter ready state. You can sit there all day long pressing the power button trying to get into READY, but it won't happen if you don't release the brake...which no one thinks to do when they're stuck in the middle of the street.

Maybe you can't, but I can in my 2011. In fact it turns out that I can go directly from any state to any other state!

OK, let me qualify that. I still don't understand the distinction between OFF and LOCK states. And it is possible that there are some sub-states I am not aware of. So let me start out with my personal definitions of the states:

OFF: .... Neither the dash nor the console is lit up.
ACC: .... The dash is dark, but the console is lit up and at least some of its functions can be used.
ON: ..... Both the dash and the console are lit up, but there is no green car with a double arrow on the dash.
READY: . Same as ON, but with the green car and double arrow displayed.

Here are the state transition actions I have explored:

P: ..... Press power button once without the brake pedal depressed.
PP: .... Press power button twice in close time succession without the brake pedal depressed.
BP: .... Same as P but with the brake pedal depressed.
BPP: .. Same as PP but with the brake pedal depressed.

And here is the state transition diagram I discovered experimentally:

Old    |  Action and Result State
State  |-------------------------
       |  P     PP    BP     BPP
-------|------------------------
OFF    |  ACC   ON    READY  ON
ACC    |  ON    OFF   READY  ON
ON     |  OFF   ACC   READY  READY
READY  |  OFF   ACC   OFF    ON

Follow the row across from any state on the left and you will see that all three other states can be reached with a single action. Not that I expect anybody (myself included) to memorize that. I just show it as demonstration of my assertion. There are a few rules that might be worth remembering, however:

• BP always takes you to READY if you aren't already there.
• BPP always takes you to ON if you aren't already there.
• P cycles you through the three non-READY states, OFF -> ACC -> ON -> OFF.
• PP cycles you backwards through the three non-READY states, OFF -> ON -> ACC -> OFF.

Ray

 

[TimLee]

raghu1111 I feel your pain
I've driven a 2011 LEAF for 23 months, and as many others have reported, I have experienced 2 or 3 instances in which it appeared the only way to get the car into Ready state and driveable was first to turn it off.
Fortunately none were in traffic. Most irritating one was in a drive through. And with the built in creep on the LEAF, the only safe thing to do in the LEAF is to put it in Park if you're going to wait long in a drive through.
Similarly, a long wait at a red light putting it in Park might seem like a good idea.
But if you end up having to turn the car off to get into Ready, the delay to get into drive after the car boots up is about 3 to 4 seconds. So I don't think putting the car into Park in traffic even at a red light is a good practice.
I give plant4ever a lot of credit for the carefully constructed states chart.
Technically it appears that you could always get the car into Ready with your foot on the brake.
But I think it is possible that what davewill reported may be correct, that in some situations the fastest way to get the car into Ready would be to take your foot off the brake first, then reapply brake and push the button to get into ready state.
It may have to do with the speed with which the button is being pushed.
Someone wanting the vehicle to move quickly may end up pushing the button the second time or third time trying to get the car to do something.
The overall reported experience from MANY drivers is that you cannot expect the LEAF to go into Ready state quickly from Park in some situations.

 

[mm2001]

@planet4ever, your state table seems to describe what I was reporting here: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=12230&p=280950" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I think I erroneously did BPP after doing double push to open all doors on the door handle and then sitting down to power on the car. Then trying to put the car into any gear resulted in it being stuck in Neutral. Not sure if the car was in Ready state.

I.e. BPP -> select gear -> display shows N

I'll see if I can reproduce this tomorrow, confirm the "Green Car" Ready state indicator and will also see if I can use BP to get it from the Neutral state into Ready (as an alternative to power off, then BP).

Thanks for putting that table together. VERY useful and a great communication tool!

 

[davewill]

The state diagram doesn't seem complete. You should be able to go from ACC or ON (IG-ON in Toyota parlance) to READY by putting your foot on the brake and pushing power.

But you CAN'T. Once you get into ON state, you have to release the brake and turn the car all the way off before you can enter ready state. You can sit there all day long pressing the power button trying to get into READY, but it won't happen if you don't release the brake...which no one thinks to do when they're stuck in the middle of the street.

Maybe you can't, but I can in my 2011. In fact it turns out that I can go directly from any state to any other state! ...

Sorry. Yes, you can. I guess it's only when it gets into the state the OP described, that the only way out is releasing the brake and turning it off.

 

[brycenesbitt]

Thank you! By reading http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=12066&start=34
I was finally able to listen to the radio, without the dashboard lit up, and without the obvious waste of battery power of the steering system operating.