Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

[GRA]

Via ABG:

Toyota Mirai orders start July 20

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/07/13/toyota-mirai-orders-start-july-20/

 

[GRA]

Via ABG:

A peek into Toyota's plans to sell the Mirai hydrogen car

http://www.autoblog.com/2015/07/16/peek-into-plans-sell-toyota-mirai-hydrogen/

. . . "With everything else on my lot, I'm selling something. It's what I do," Mike Sullivan of Toyota Santa Monica, one of the Mirai dealers, said to Automotive News. "This car is the exact opposite. It's the reverse of selling. We're going to turn people down if this isn't the car for you."

Toyota understands that the Mirai isn't necessarily the perfect car for everyone at this point. Its 312-mile range is impressive, but the H2 refueling infrastructure is still lacking. Customers need to know what they're getting.

Of course, most people with an early interest in the Mirai are expected to be quite well informed. "They're going to come in educated, and the customer experience for this product is very important to the dealers and Toyota. We have to get it right the first time." Ed LaRocque, the company's national marketing manager for the Mirai, said to Automotive News.

Dealers are taking the duty to present the fuel cell sedan seriously. Sullivan even intends to build a hydrogen filling station at his store for customers and a dedicated service bay, according to Automotive News. Toyota also wants to keep up with dealer training even after the launch.

While this launch is hugely important, Toyota is keeping its goals modest. Total sales are expected to top just 3,000 units by the end of 2017. Even by 2025, there are only predicted to be about 10,800 hydrogen vehicles in general across the Northeast.

 

[TonyWilliams]

... Toyota is keeping its goals modest. Total sales are expected to top just 3,000 units by the end of 2017. Even by 2025, there are only predicted to be about 10,800 hydrogen vehicles in general across the Northeast.

[/quote]

Interesting.

So, we don't break into 5 digit numbers for TEN YEARS?

That's even worse than I expected for them to say. Heck, since California is the epicenter for the hydrogen auto makers, here's what they think:

"In March 2012, Governor Brown issued an Executive Order directing state government to help accelerate the market for ZEVs in California. The order set a goal of establishing an infrastructure to support 1 million ZEVs in California by 2020 and to have 1.5 million ZEVs on California roadways by 2025. Since then, seven other states, comprising more than 30 percent of the total national vehicle fleet, signed an agreement to work together to put 2.2 million ZEVs on the roads of their respective states by 2025."

So, only a teeny, tiny amount of those will be hydrogen? I'm shocked !!!

 

[mwalsh]

It's a little premature, because I don't have the job yet, but constrained by time I signed up showing interest in being a Mirai lessee based on a hypothetical 260-300 mile R/T, once a week, between Orange County and the Antelope Valley. Degraded LEAF obviously isn't going to cut it. Neither will a new one with the current range for that matter, because I'll not really want to spend the time to QC. I would have the time to fully charge a BEV on L2 (or even L1 for that matter) at the mid-way point though.

So out of the current crop of (or upcoming) options that might work:

Toyota Mirai: On paper, enough range for the R/T journey, but then it would have to with the current dirth of refueling stations - the only convenient ones would be here in Orange County and refueling would be a special and not especially convenient trip (though that is supposed to change dramatically over the next 18 months). Monthly lease price - $500 including fuel. I do have some philosophical qualms about where H2 comes from, and would probably refuel at the OCSD station in Fountain Valley, where the H2 comes from wastewater (poop).

Model S: Priced the lease on a S70D with the minimum amount down ($4000) - almost $900 a month. Too much. Also, I don't want or need all-wheel-drive. Leases on the CPO cars with the suggested down don't come out much better (less than $100 cheaper).

Chevrolet Volt or Cruze (or similar small sedan from another manufacturer): Going back to ICE, even if it's PHEV for a small portion of the miles, is not massively appealing. Would keep my LEAF in the AV for daily use, which would have the added benefit of killing my battery pack once and for all. Cost for lease and gas would be in the range of $300-$400 a month with fuel. Maybe $75 to $100 less if can can get a lease that is under $100 a month, rather than the expected $150-200 a month.

What I probably need is for the crop of 200+ mile, affordable BEVs to be available sooner rather than later.

 

[GRA]

Via ievs:

Toyota Provides Details On UK Launch Of Mirai – 11 Cars In 2015, Up To 50 In 2016

http://insideevs.com/toyota-provides-details-uk-launch-mirai-11-cars-2015-50-2016/

Fleet only in 2015, individuals from 2016. A very slow, careful rollout, consistent with Toyota's general conservatism.

 

[GRA]

Via GCR [my emphasis]:

Toyota Tackles Hydrogen Fueling Challenges As Mirai Launch Approaches: UPDATED
http://www.greencarreports.com/news/109 ... approaches

Also contains more detail on the prices and incentives Toyota is offering, including fuel.

As this autumn's launch of the 2016 Toyota Mirai fuel-cell car approaches, its maker is taking steps to ensure that the small number of initial buyers and lessees will be able to fuel up their hydrogen-powered sedans with ease.

Some of the 70 or so Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell SUV drivers in Southern California have complained that they can't reliable refuel their cars, which they've leased over the last year.

But Toyota notes that those stations aren't "ready for prime time," and wouldn't necessarily be capable of fueling a new Mirai.

In a recent interview published in Forbes, Toyota's Craig Scott notes that "there's still a lot of development work that needs to occur" on a hydrogen fueling infrastructure, and that while it's "vastly improved this year," its development is "still lagging. . . ."

California now has 48 hydrogen stations planned and funded, with two completed and another eight now under construction. Toyota expects 10 to 15 stations "open and ready" by the end of the year and capable of fueling its Mirai.

Next year, Scott said, he expects roughly 20 more stations to open.

Like Hyundai, Toyota will only offer its Mirai to customers who live and work near hydrogen stations. So far, it has designated only eight dealers--four each in Northern and Southern California--to distribute the hydrogen-powered vehicles. . . .

More insight into Toyota's approach to marketing the Mirai and addressing concerns over fuel availability come from Southern California reader Doug Kerr.

The owner of two electric cars, he was invited to a Mirai introduction event in Laguna Beach put on by the carmaker.

The gathering included video presentations, explanations of how a hydrogen fuel-cell powertrain functions, and a half-hour Mirai test drive.

Kerr characterized the event as "low-key and targeted to those early adopters who had the income and the technical interest sufficient to become a hydrogen pioneer."

Knowledgeable electric-car drivers, including Kerr, may raise questions about the car and the technology, as Kerr did. He writes:

The Toyota marketing representative, Geri Yoza, was ready for any questions I brought up in the small group I was in.

Regarding the Hyundai Tucson Fuel Cell drivers and their issues with hydrogen availability, she said each of those stations were experimental, and were never considered as part of the consumer experience [by Toyota].

Several hydrogen stations were just finishing construction, she said, and would be available around October. She said the new stations, built by FirstElement, had performance standards, and that they would fill a Mirai within five minutes. . . .

The new, "ready for prime time" hydrogen fueling stations will all have a Point of Sale system, just as customers expect at gasoline stations. A meter on the pump will display the cost per kilogram, total amount dispensed, and amount of transaction. . . .

 

[DaveEV]

MODERATORS NOTE: We already have a substantial general FCEV thread. Please keep this one specific to the Mirai.

Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

Many posts have been moved to the thread above.

 

[GRA]

Via ievs:

Initial Demand For Toyota Mirai In The US Not Good, Only 600 Apply

http://insideevs.com/initial-demand-toyota-mirai-us-good/

Considering how fugly the car is, the limited availability and infrastructure for now, and the price, I'm moderately surprised it was as good as that. I was expecting something below 500, and wouldn't have been surprised if it were below 300.

 

[mwalsh]

Got a call from Toyota today and told them I wasn't going to move forward with ordering due to the current state of the fueling infrastructure.

I also happen to be no further along with finding out if I've landed the job that would require the vehicle, which is no small reason either.

 

[JasonA]

Got a call from Toyota today and told them I wasn't going to move forward with ordering due to the current state of the fueling infrastructure.

 

[DNAinaGoodWay]

600 - 1 = 599 to go

 

[GRA]

Got a call from Toyota today and told them I wasn't going to move forward with ordering due to the current state of the fueling infrastructure.

I also happen to be no further along with finding out if I've landed the job that would require the vehicle, which is no small reason either.

Good for you. There's nothing like motivation from potential customers to get Toyota to put even more effort into getting the infrastructure in place sooner. Of course, even if they do it sounds like whether or not you get the job will be the determining factor for you. I hope that everyone who opts for a Mirai (or a Tucson ftm) in the start up phase has examined their options as carefully as you have, so that only people who can really benefit from the advantages and are willing to put up with the inevitable hiccups will choose one. It's a shame that more early LEAF owners didn't do that - while it would have slowed down the initial deployment, there wouldn't have been so many unsatisfied customers who may now be prejudiced against BEVs in general.

 

[cwerdna]

I received an email yesterday from Toyota Sunnyvale about a ride and drive event there on 8/14 from 3 pm to 8 pm. Says
"Come see the Mirai in person!
We’ll have vehicles in stock you can check out and
test drive in person. Must RSVP below to attend. "

Unfortunately, that's a work day and I have 0 interest in buying/leasing. I might be curious to test drive though and see what their spiel is re: infrastructure for Nor Cal.

 

[GRA]

I received an email yesterday from Toyota Sunnyvale about a ride and drive event there on 8/14 from 3 pm to 8 pm. Says
"Come see the Mirai in person!
We’ll have vehicles in stock you can check out and
test drive in person. Must RSVP below to attend. "

Unfortunately, that's a work day and I have 0 interest in buying/leasing. I might be curious to test drive though and see what their spiel is re: infrastructure for Nor Cal.

We already know where much of the infrastructure in Norcal (SoCal too ftm) is going to be, as that's been detailed in announcements in posts either upthread or, more likely, in the H2/fuel cell thread. IIRR there are supposed to be 8 in Norcal initially, clustered in the areas where the cars will be sold/leased.

 

[AlanSqB]

600 - 1 = 599 to go

599 bottles of explosive gas on the wall, 599 bottles of gas.
Take one down, drive it in town (because it won't go anywhere else), 598 bottles of explosive gas on the wall.

598 bottles of explosive gas on the wall...

 

[GRA]

600 - 1 = 599 to go

599 bottles of explosive gas on the wall, 599 bottles of gas.
Take one down, drive it in town (because it won't go anywhere else), 598 bottles of explosive gas on the wall.

598 bottles of explosive gas on the wall...

If by 'in town' you mean anywhere within a 125-150 mile radius of a station, plus LA-SF and SF-Tahoe out of the gate, then I guess FCVs are limited to 'in town'. That's a pretty big town you got there, Tex.

 

[JeremyW]

Can't take it to Vegas then! :lol:

 

[srl99]

And one small business is crimping new valves on to Hydrogen cylinders. Calling their product J-blow.

Could the recent Mirai news release, i.e. within the last week to 10 days, have had some impact on the
decline of the Tesla stock this week?

 

[GRA]

Can't take it to Vegas then! :lol:

Not at the moment, but if the demand is there, then stations will be built to allow that. OTOH, from the stations in Ontario, Chino or Riverside it's 233, 244 or 242 miles to Vegas, so a station in Vegas would allow a Mirai to do the trip; a Tucson would be cutting it a bit fine, given the two passes that have to be crossed, and would be better served by a station in say Baker, that would allow round trips from there. But do see CARB's 2015 annual report, just out, for the details (Appendices A and C): http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/zevprog/ab8/ab8_report_2015.pdf

 

[TonyWilliams]

... it's 233, 244 or 242 miles to Vegas, so a station in Vegas would allow a Mirai to do the trip; a Tucson would be cutting it a bit fine, given the two passes that have to be crossed, and would be better served by a station in say Baker...

Just read a Mirai report from Japan... they were only able to get about 240 miles out of the thing. It's hard to say if they had the full 10,000psi in there, or not, but presumably they just plugged in until it stopped pumping.

I don't think I'd be planning my H2 Vegas holiday quite yet! Maybe I can set up a towing service with a Tesla Model X around Primm? With a reported 10,000 pound towing capacity, I can haul two H2 cars at a time!