The Market will Respond to After-Market Battery Demand

[thankyouOB]

when i see this thread all i can think of is all the problems, debates, differences of opinion folks here have about replacing the windshield wipers, which cost less than $50.
and we are talking about a not-nissan battery part for the LEAF that would be durable over more than 5 years and tens of thousands of miles and thousands of rechargings? and made by someone we never heard of? and costing 4k-10k?

i just scratch my head.

 

[davewill]

Here here!

... but that should actually be "Hear, hear!" when used in this context.

I thought he meant he wanted us to do this in his garage...

 

[GregH]

when i see this thread all i can think of is all the problems, debates, differences of opinion folks here have about replacing the windshield wipers, which cost less than $50.
and we are talking about a not-nissan battery part for the LEAF that would be durable over more than 5 years and tens of thousands of miles and thousands of rechargings? and made by someone we never heard of? and costing 4k-10k?

i just scratch my head.

$4k-10k? I just LOL!! You'll be damn lucky if such a thing costs under $10k any time soon. On the other hand the prospect of modules with nearly twice the capacity of the stock Nissan modules is tantalizing..

 

[klapauzius]

when i see this thread all i can think of is all the problems, debates, differences of opinion folks here have about replacing the windshield wipers, which cost less than $50.
and we are talking about a not-nissan battery part for the LEAF that would be durable over more than 5 years and tens of thousands of miles and thousands of rechargings? and made by someone we never heard of? and costing 4k-10k?

i just scratch my head.

$4k-10k? I just LOL!! You'll be damn lucky if such a thing costs under $10k any time soon. On the other hand the prospect of modules with nearly twice the capacity of the stock Nissan modules is tantalizing..

$10k is a lot of money and capacity-wise would go some way right now, if you just wanted to buy a pack (that does not necessarily would fit in the Leaf). I think the main issue is not getting a quality battery right now, but making it such that it fits into the Leaf.
Prototyping this would be very expensive though (which is why only a large company with lots of money could do it, ideally the OEM...).

 

[diovi]

I think its a bit more complicated than that..
Unless you plan to swap out every single cell in the pack, the BMS output etc. all will have to match and work with the Leafs systems...But maybe just exchanging every single cell will work.

The idea is to literally take apart every module and find a way to chemically refurbish it, or if that's too hard, analyze the chemistry and find a way to use the same battery chemistry in a newly manufactured pack, and not violate any patents in the process

None of this is even half as hard as what it took to start Tesla. So it's doable.

Unless you have some nano-tech demons that fix the electrodes molecule by molecule, I dont think it is possible to "heal" the battery.

And founding Tesla took a LOT of money.
But replacing the old cells with fresh ones (that match size and form with old ones) should work. Sounds like a lot of manual labor by highly skilled technicians....

No Nanomachines required. How to Heal a Li-Ion Battery

 

[diovi]

when i see this thread all i can think of is all the problems, debates, differences of opinion folks here have about replacing the windshield wipers, which cost less than $50.
and we are talking about a not-nissan battery part for the LEAF that would be durable over more than 5 years and tens of thousands of miles and thousands of rechargings? and made by someone we never heard of? and costing 4k-10k?

i just scratch my head.

To be fair, you make a good point. But, most people who argue about $50 windshield wipers won't be starting a Tesla anytime soon. I'm basing my postulations on tech articles I read every day. I'm not just picking numbers out of thin air. I've been linking to articles with reputable sources. I like to stay up to snuff on the latest Science and Tech. My tiny outline definitely won't solve the problem, I'm mainly acknowledging that there IS a problem, and that market forces will likely step into any vacuum made by Nissan. Google was started by 2 PhD students.

I'll admit that my first post is largely a reaction to my disappointment with Nissan letting us know about a perpetual $100-or-so-a-month lease on the LAST day of Spring. Seriously, the last day of Spring. Reminds me of how I used to do book reports on Russian Novels in High School. The night before a book report was due was the night I didn't sleep.

 

[klapauzius]

No Nanomachines required. How to Heal a Li-Ion Battery

That would be the next-gen battery, not the current one.

 

[diovi]

No Nanomachines required. How to Heal a Li-Ion Battery

That would be the next-gen battery, not the current one.

"To counteract this cracking, White embedded tiny microspheres inside the graphite of an anode. As cracks formed in the anode, they tore open the plastic shells, releasing the contents within: a material called indium gallium arsenide. This liquid metal alloy seeped out of the spheres and filled the cracks in the anode, restoring the flow of electricity."

Now I could be reading it wrong, but I interpreted the article that as him taking an existing lithium battery and making direct modifications to it, to test his theory. Which did pan out.

 

[fotajoye]

I see the market in replacement upgraded Leaf batteries as a definite reality and I applaud your foresight.

What worries me is Nissan's solution. An indefinite lease, indeed. What this does is destroy your confidence in them as a user concerned company. They still haven't learned there is a difference in the EV business model and the ICE business model. They only need look at Tesla to learn how to work in the new space...so far they have failed in any attempt to build confidence in their users.

Recently a company announced the production of Lithium Sulfur Batteries in 2014; perhaps they will see the used Leaf market as an opportunity and decide to offer a product.

http://www.hybridcars.com/oxis-jump-starts-first-commercialization-of-lithium-sulfur-batteries/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[thankyouOB]

... My tiny outline definitely won't solve the problem, I'm mainly acknowledging that there IS a problem, and that market forces will likely step into any vacuum made by Nissan. Google was started by 2 PhD students.

I'll admit that my first post is largely a reaction to my disappointment with Nissan letting us know about a perpetual $100-or-so-a-month lease on the LAST day of Spring. Seriously, the last day of Spring. Reminds me of how I used to do book reports on Russian Novels in High School. The night before a book report was due was the night I didn't sleep.

Bravo for your efforts and thoughts. your summation of nissan doing a full, bend-over ostrich on battery sales is also apt.

while i applaud the LEAF and like mine, for those who dont prefer rent-to-buy and its various permutations where some corporation gets to keep its hand in your pocket and pull money out every month, i doubt that the LEAF will remain a choice.
people will migrate to vehicles where they can pay upfront to own the car and the battery or get a guaranteed battery warranty against degradation at purchase.

i keep wishing nissan would explain what they are thinking with the SYB program.

 

[smkettner]

(4) Figure out how to refurbish the old batteries to 100% or 12 bars.

Refurbishment program in progress:

http://www.btcpower.com/products-an...harging/#ev-phev-battery-refurbisment-program

 

[TomT]

I'm not going to hold my breath on this one coming to fruition...

(4) Figure out how to refurbish the old batteries to 100% or 12 bars.

Refurbishment program in progress

 

[mskiin]

I just bought a 2013 well aware of the battery problems. I drive enough to where if I need to lease a battery for 100 a month it still saves me hundreds of dollars in gas. One thing I havnt really seen in posts that I've been lurking through the past 2 weeks is why nissan doesnt offer replacement cells to be able to be purchased?

 

[nosuchthing]

Why ask why? Try Bud Dry... :twisted:

 

[fotajoye]

why nissan doesnt offer replacement cells to be able to be purchased?

Are you planning to replace individual cell in the battery yourself? How might you go about doing that?
Also, I wonder "What Nissan will charge for an battery replacement out of warranty?"

 

[mskiin]

Yes I would be planning to do cell replacement myself. I've done all my own car maintenance and repairs my self for 12 years I don't see why I wouldn't be able to do a cell replacement. If the dealership is able to replace them then I'm sure I can do it. Only problem would be getting the replacement cells.

 

[fotajoye]

I also do my own work and have build race cars, etc. I would like to see some bright guy create an open project for rebuilding the Leaf's traction battery. This might lead to a DIY process and method to actually upgrade Leaf batteries with improved cells, i.e., more energy density...longer range, etc in a used Leaf.

Right now I'm sure Leaf batteries sell for too much and I don't care to join the "Never Never Nissan Lease Plan" for batteries when my battery goes flat.

 

[FairwoodRed]

I’m a DIY’er too, but I think a healthy warning here is appropriate, if only for those who may read this thread, but not comment on it.

To work on the Leaf battery pack, your electrical skills have to up to dealing with 400 volts DC, which is a bit worse than 400 volts AC. At that voltage, really bad things start to happen and death becomes more of a possibility. You really should have fully electrically insulated hand tools (sockets, screwdrivers, etc) and know how to protect against accidental shorts.

The good news is that removing the service plug between the rear footwells will cut the pack voltage in half and 200V is not as bad as 400V.

So in conclusion, be sure to bone up on higher voltage electrical safety before you work on a Leaf pack.

 

[GregH]

I approached some friends at a company that makes EV modules out of 18650s (like Tesla) and we looked at making a replacement module for the Leaf. The conclusion was that aside from being crazy expensive (closer to $20k than $10k for a pack of 48), the pack would have at least 50% more capacity but would probably also not last due to the lack of TMS. The Leaf cells have relatively low impedance resulting in minimal internally generated heat during normal driving. It would be difficult to make a compatible cell and nearly impossible to make a financial case for it.

 

[mskiin]

Well we will see where my capacity lies at 5 years 100k miles. It would have well paid for itself in gas savings by then and I can just throw the car away at that point of by them they havnt had some break through