Tesla Supercharger Network

[MrIanB]

MrIanB, the free Supercharger network can be used by any Tesla that is DC charge capable... which is currently the 85 kWh Tesla S (the only one being delivered currently)... and early next year the 60 KWh version.

Ohhhh, ok. It sounded like only the S model could use the supercharger. Thanks for the info. Learn something every day.

Ian B

 

[defiancecp]

The 30 minute sample charge they discuss on Supercharger would take 33 minutes on SAE and 45 on ChaDemo. While the difference with Chademo might arguably be compelling, I'd say dealing with 45 vs 30 minutes isn't a huge deal (I mean, either one is too long to sit and stare at it, and once you're getting a snack, 30-45 isn't much difference) - but even that argument doesn't hold water with SAE.
I can't see how this decision could have been made for any other reason than to have a locked-down proprietary network to offer their customers, which IMO does more harm than good.

 

[TomT]

It's their ball, they get to pick the game...

I can't see how this decision could have been made for any other reason than to have a locked-down proprietary network to offer their customers, which IMO does more harm than good.

 

[gaswalla]

It would have been totally fair for Nissan to install QC's (of any type) at every Nissan dealer and limit the usage only to LEAFs. But, they could care less about supporting their owners and making the effort to get a support network for their owners. Give Tesla credit for taking care of their customers and spending significant resources to support their owners driving experience.

 

[mitch672]

Disclosure: I almost bought a Leaf, but in the end rejected it. I have a $5,000 deposit on a Tesla Model S 85KW, not arriving until "Spring/Summer 2013"

#1 Tesla is using the same connector on the Model S, it supports L2 AC up to 80A (with the 2nd optional $1500 10KW charger, charge rate 62MPH max @ 20KW AC input), and it also supports their 90KW SuperCharger, which is 225A max @ ~400VDC, it does this via internal relays that switch the contacts directly to the battery packs DC connections. Genius, 1 connector for both types of charging.

#2 SAE Frankenstein connector was not finalized at time JB Straubel (Responsible for most of the engineering / design of the Model S) was finalizing the design, and frankly, Teslas solution is both more elegant and easier for people to handle than that SAE Frankenplug.

#3 Tesla designed the SuperCharger network to allow cross country and long distance travel in their 60KW (optionally), and 85KW packs, since these are the only 2 vehicles practically capable of driving that type of distance using DC fast charging WITHOUT causing battery degradation. At 90KW, the 85KW pack is charged at just 1C, hardly noticed.

#4 Tesla is providing free electricity via these SuperChargers for Model S's capable of using them, for life. Can any other mfr claim that? I didn't think so, advantage: Tesla. What do you think the effect on sales will be when gasoline keeps moving up in price and word gets out? They already can't make them fast enough...

You can clearly see there are numerous reasons they went with their own connector and DC fast charge network. If they are successful (I believe they will be, I am also long on TSLA), there connector will become the defacto standard, and they will eventually license it to other EV manufacturers (after they have milked it for a number of years). No one has even announced any plans to use the SAE Franken plug, and it's likely to stay that way, just compare the elegance of the Tesla HPC2 connector to that SAE monstrosity..

 

[TomT]

+1

It would have been totally fair for Nissan to install QC's (of any type) at every Nissan dealer and limit the usage only to LEAFs. But, they could care less about supporting their owners and making the effort to get a support network for their owners. Give Tesla credit for taking care of their customers and spending significant resources to support their owners driving experience.

 

[defiancecp]

Another company can sit down tomorrow and find 10 improvements that can be made to the tesla connector and start producing a car with it. The day after that, another company can find 10 improvements to *THAT* connector and repeat the process. Each iteration can be inarguably better than the last, and the process would still be stupid.

Consumers pay the price in the end with completely nonstandard charging plugs, each "better" than the last, and all failing because of lack of compatibility vehicle-to-vehicle.

Incremental gains for a "better plug" are not worth it when the counterpoint is a consumer pool that is completely unwilling to even consider EVs as a result.


I do give credit to Tesla for supporting their customers. Great job, seriously! If they'd have put this level of effort into it while still keeping in mind what really stands in the way of their success (lack of EV adoption, not other EV manufacturers), I would have no complaints at all.

 

[mitch672]

Another company can sit down tomorrow and find 10 improvements that can be made to the tesla connector and start producing a car with it. The day after that, another company can find 10 improvements to *THAT* connector and repeat the process. Each iteration can be inarguably better than the last, and the process would still be stupid.

Consumers pay the price in the end with completely nonstandard charging plugs, each "better" than the last, and all failing because of lack of compatibility vehicle-to-vehicle.

Incremental gains for a "better plug" are not worth it when the counterpoint is a consumer pool that is completely unwilling to even consider EVs as a result.


I do give credit to Tesla for supporting their customers. Great job, seriously! If they'd have put this level of effort into it while still keeping in mind what really stands in the way of their success (lack of EV adoption, not other EV manufacturers), I would have no complaints at all.

Their goal was not to build a "better EV", but to build the best car. Period. That it happens to be an EV, doesn't matter.

The Model S's competition is NOT other EVs, but high end BMWs, Mercedes, etc

They have to overcome 3 objections:

#1 limited range. The 60 & 85 KW modes along with the SuperCharger network accomplished this objection.

#2 the electricity used comes from coal, it's dirtier than burning gasoline. Having the SuperCharger sites have solar canopies that actually contribute more energy to the grid than the Model S uses, takes care of this objection.

#3 electric cars are not practical, they are only good for local travel... See #1

It's not just a better connector, its an entire marketing plan & design, it's an entire "system"
Using the SAE DC Frankenplug has nothing to do with it, they are trying to support THEIR customers, to the give them every advantage to buying a Model S, they have zero interest in supporting some future GM or Nissan product, and why should they?

Face it, they built the ultimate car, the fact that's in an EV is just icing on the cake.

PS - I love standards their are so many to choose from

 

[Zythryn]

...
Consumers pay the price in the end with completely nonstandard charging plugs, each "better" than the last, and all failing because of lack of compatibility vehicle-to-vehicle.

Incremental gains for a "better plug" are not worth it when the counterpoint is a consumer pool that is completely unwilling to even consider EVs as a result...

I would agree with you IF Tesla vehicles could only charge on the unique chargers. Standard with the car are small adapters that will allow the car to us a standard 110 volt plug, a standard J1772 charger as well as a normal NEMA 14-50 plug (common at RV and camping parks).

The NEMA 14-50 plug is actually what I had installed in my garage, it is much cheaper that an EVSE and almost as quick (until you compare it with QCs).

Tesla, in my mind is the most flexible EV on the market when it comes to charging options.

 

[mitch672]

Zythrin is right, in fact I just built a 75A J-1772 OpenEVSE I intend to use to charge my Model S, via the Tesla supplied J-1772 to Model S HPC2 connector.

I can also us the UMC2 that comes with the Model S, it will come with a standard 120V adapter, as well as a 14-50, allowing a 40A charge rate, or 31MPH with just what comes with the car.. You can also get 30A dryer adapters, but of course they only support 24A charging. The best choice is to install a 14-50 at home, then if you are on the road, many RV Parks also have them.

Or just any J-1772 can be used, of course most of the public ones are only 30A, kind of slow for a Model S, but usable in a pinch.

 

[defiancecp]

I'm not talking about the car flexibility, I'm talking about the charger, and it's not compatible with anything but Tesla - they state that themselves.

Well, you all disagree with my concerns about fragmented QC infrastructure, and that's cool. Seems like we all agree on the situation, just disagree on what matters and what doesn't. I think, based on people I've spoken to, that a huge portion of the public are not going to begin considering EVs until quick charging becomes standardized and readily available. I think this could have helped that issue if the chargers were supported by any of the larger manufacturers, but instead actually hurt it by making it even less likely that 3rd party companies will begin rolling out charging, and making consumers have to determine compatibility if they DO find a qc.

I hope you're right, and people decide they're perfectly OK with charging infrastructure compatibility being tied to vehicle Manufacturer, if they exist at all. Sure would be nice if this, one of the primary barriers to EV adoption among those I've spoken to that aren't willing to consider EVs, was deemed unimportant by the general public. Or that commercial interest in charging stations develops in spite of the fact that we're now even further away from a standard they can select, meaning there's even more risk that whatever charger they install will be obselete soon.

I would like nothing better than for Tesla to have mountainous success with the Model S, and with their charging network - so much so, that all the other manufacturers decide to jump in and these end up becoming the de facto standard. I think the idea of putting out a charging network for their customers, and the fact that they're actually doing it, is exceptional, and it deserves to be rewarded.

I just hope I'm mistaken about how the American public is going to respond. We'll see, I suppose.

 

[mitch672]

..snip..
I just hope I'm mistaken about how the American public is going to respond. We'll see, I suppose.

Let me paint you the big picture

The Tesla Model S is not the end all, be all for Tesla. It's a stepping stone, a "concept demonstration" technology for them. The American public is never going to accept a $90K EV (and that's what they really cost, when you actually configure one)

No, the entire master plan is to get the people who can afford the Model S to buy one, to prove to the public at large that an EV is not only practical, it's actually BETTER than any existing ICE vehicle on the market currently. Once Tesla establishes the SuperCharging network, and there are thousands of Model S's on U.S. roads, traveling for free on electricity provided by renewable energy, they will have partially succeeded.

The next step is the release of "BlueStar" circa 2015, which will be an EV for the masses, priced in the $30K range. Of course to get their, the Model S and Tesla must be a success and become dominant as the worlds EV leader.

The promise of free fuel for road trips is also enticing as well, but by the time BlueStar is released, that may no longer be free (due to the massive number of EVs, if they are successful), but it will be available. So you see the Model S and the SuperCharger network have reasons to exist.

Think of it as a journey, not the destination. Enjoy the journey . At least they have a long term vision of the future.

 

[coolfilmaker]

I think the superchargers should and will remain free. They just need to figure out how to make sure people only use them when going on road trips. A gas station in your garage is just way more desirable than one in the middle of nowhere. Once the novelty of free electricty wears off and people realize how cheap it is to charge at home I think it will work.

Right now people are equating it to getting a few hundred dollars worth of gasoline but that's not what it is.

 

[grommet]

FYI: For the upcoming 60 kWh model, if you want access to the Supercharger network... you need to pay a $2K 'activation fee'. It'll be up to the buyer to determine if it's worthwhile. So, at least for this model... the so-called free trip "fuel" has an initial cost.

 

[GRA]

Today while looking for a parking space to visit the Folsom Plug In Day Event, I saw a ModelS...wow, my first sighting in the "wild". I parked my car and began to walk over and noticed that the car was plugged in and the driver was still in the car. As I approached he got out, unplugged the car and that's when I noticed there was not a j1772 adapter on the connection. He was plugging directly into his car. Then I noticed the Tesla logo on the pedestal. Wow, I accidently discovered one of the first superchargers. I found out that this particular unit is 90kW.

The gentleman who was driving the car is a Tesla employee and he was driving a development car and it was clearly marked with MFG plates and numbers all over it. I'm assuming he was there to test the charge station, as well as the car. I also saw ModelS #42 (I think...it was in the 40's) which was on display. The owner was gracious enough to bring it to the event and allow people to touch it...lots of finger prints! This was one of the Signature vehicles with all the options. Very beautiful car!

Anyhow, here are some photos. The station itself is just a simple pedestal with a cable, and the hardware is in an enclosure nearby. It looks like they have done a lot of electrical work to put this in. There is a new Transformer, power distribution panel, and the charge controller. It also looks like they are setup to add a second charge controller as there is room to park another car and there are bollards to protect where they would put the second unit. You can also see on the slab between the charge controller and the distribution panel the conduits they have already run to the parking space.

I'm not thrilled by the fact that the connector points upwards with no serious cover when stored. While I'm sure that it's been tested as safe to use even if filled with water, it just strikes me that the connectors are going to collect dirt, leaves, bird crap and who know what else while not in use, leading to reliability issues. They are certainly convenient to use in that position, but there really should be some kind of covered socket that the connector head plugs into while stored, to protect it.

 

[palmermd]

I'm not thrilled by the fact that the connector points upwards with no serious cover when stored. While I'm sure that it's been tested as safe to use even if filled with water, it just strikes me that the connectors are going to collect dirt, leaves, bird crap and who know what else while not in use, leading to reliability issues. They are certainly convenient to use in that position, but there really should be some kind of covered socket that the connector head plugs into while stored, to protect it.

I've seen a video where there is a door that opens and closes around the cable. The pedestal is a bit different in that version. I'm assuming that the pedestal that you see in the pictures I took were for a temporary installation. If you go to the Tesla forum you can see some images taken by another member that shows that entire station built in the week leading up to my photos on Sunday and then the Supercharger announcement on Monday. It looks like they rushed some things to get it all done for the event. Anyhow, it is a working unit at the time of the announcement, and that is what Elon wanted. The rounder pedestal with the rotating door will not only look better, but will protect the cable end from the elements as you mentioned. The cable is in no way connected to the pedestal. The cable has a gland nut attachment to the end of the metal conduit in the ground and just comes straight up out of the ground, and the pedestal is just a box around it with a clip to hold it. The new one will essentially be the same except a door on the front.

 

[grommet]

There are different types of Supercharger sites, some flashy and overkill (few) and some far more simple. I've been told the pedestals will vary.

 

[palmermd]

There are different types of Supercharger sites, some flashy and overkill (few) and some far more simple. I've been told the pedestals will vary.

I believe you are referring to the "cover" over the electronics. For example the unit in Folsom is not allowed to have the large "rocketship" Tesla logoed cover installed over it, so it will just be a simple enclosure. Also some (most?) will have the solar panels and others will not. I believe the pedestal where the cable comes out will all be the same at all locations, and the ones currently installed are just temporary.

 

[cwerdna]

MrIanB, the free Supercharger network can be used by any Tesla that is DC charge capable... which is currently the 85 kWh Tesla S (the only one being delivered currently)... and early next year the 60 KWh version.

Today I noticed that the 60 kwh model now has Supercharging as a $2000 option at http://www.teslamotors.com/models/options" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Previously (including on the day of the announcement) it was included on that version and Musk, during the announcement mention a "nominal fee" for charging 60 kwh models.

I guess that's the "nominal fee".

 

[grommet]

It's an 'activation fee' - the hardware is already included on-board. Yep, nominal. All you can eat trip fuel, for $2K up front.