GRA
Well-known member
Yes, critical for 60s to get to St. Louis from Chicago in winter.Zythryn said:
Tesla Supercharger Network
- Thread starter palmermd
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GRA
Well-known member
As of 1/9/15, Springfield, IL with 8 stalls is on the map. Total U.S. SCs now 36/145/950.
Current list showing all SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:
http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Current list showing all SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:
http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
I guess I disagree with you as to the purpose of the Supercharger network. The idea, as I understood it, was to allow long distance travel, mostly via the Interstate network, not to allow free charging near urban areas as some sort of benefit to owners who happen to live there. Once one gets to a "node" on the network one can then go long distances before hopping off the network to get to one's destination (where one presumably can charge at L2, in most cases). Many of the places you suggest seem redundant to the basic goal of interstate travel. Why put a Supercharger in Santa Fe or Taos when they are already planned for Albuquerque, Las Vegas (NM), Trinidad (CO) and Tucumcari (and already operational in Gallup)? Why waste them in Durango, Cortez, Ridgway, Montrose, Estes Park, etc., when all those places are with easy Tesla range of existing Superchargers? It doesn't make any sense to me to try to blanket the country with them — presumably at great expense — when a more limited, cost-effective, and rational network will suffice for the goal of long distance travel?GRA said:
As to your objections about the timing of when planned stations get built, that seems a bit petty. If the stations do appear over the next few years that issue will be moot. If they don't, the entire Tesla model will have failed. A certain amount of patience, to see how it all shakes out, seems warranted IMO.
GRA
Well-known member
The part in bold is not my intent, indeed, I don't want to see local owners free-loading on the SCs. I want to see them at one radius distance from the major metro areas with large numbers of Teslas, so that they can travel to other major metro areas or frequent weekend destinations. So, as examples, one in Columbia, MO (people are still waiting on that one) to allow travel between St. Louis and Kansas City (125 miles to either from Columbia), and SCs in Folsom and Roseville to allow easy one-stop travel to Lake Tahoe from the Bay Area in winter. NOT to allow locals to charge there because they're too cheap.dgpcolorado said:
As to the intent of the SC network, no, that wasn't its main point (or shouldn't have been). The main point should be to enable trips to the most common destinations now, expanding to provide full coverage with time; the public rationale was to provide prestige and be able to say, "see, you can drive coast-to-coast in a BEV!". I didn't and don't consider this last to be very important early on as a practical matter, but it was arguably necessary for PR.
Except that you can't yet charge at many destinations, especially national parks which often lack sufficient (and at many locations, any) electric infrastructure, and have very restrictive permitting as to what you can do (see the discussion at TMC on "Superchargers in National Parks" for my detailed comments re Yosemite as well as national parks in general). Thus, you need SCs at the gateway towns, because you often can't make the round trip un-recharged. Lone Pine is a great example, located along U.S. 395 so people coming up from LA or down from Lee Vining can use it, at the turnoff to both Whitney Portal and Death Valley (from the northwest; Inyokern will serve Death Valley from the SW, as well as enable Inland Empire residents to reach Lone Pine).dgpcolorado said:
The goal isn't interstate travel, it's to get from where people are to where they want to go as conveniently as possible, which often involves a mix of interstate and non-interstate travel. If people never got off the interstates, putting SCs just along them would be fine, but most people traveling along them for recreation (business is a different matter) to natural destinations are going to travel well off the interstates; for man-made destinations like amusement parks they can stay on the four-lane. Who, with a Tesla income, is going to drive for business for more than a few hours, when their time is so valuable? They'll fly instead; they can afford it, and it makes no sense not to.dgpcolorado said:
Because a majority of the traffic to Taos or Santa Fe will be coming up from Albuquerque, especially in winter, it's a mountainous area which see lots of winter ski traffic and which will be difficult to reach from Albuquerque in a loaded 60 in winter conditions, and the tourist demographic matches Tesla quite well. See EV trip planner for details, and be sure to adjust the ext. temp for winter, boost the weight, and look at the weather variations page to see the effect of even a 5 mph headwind (and make whatever allowance you feel necessary for the drag of skis carried externally). As an alternative to Santa Fe (not my first choice) or Taos, you could put one in Espanola, covering U.S. 84 as well.dgpcolorado said:
Again, they're not being wasted, they are gateways to remote and/or cold, mountainous areas that are not within "easy Tesla range of existing Superchargers." Remember that in many cases you're talking about round-trip range, not one way. Ideally, lots of ski resorts will come to the conclusion that they need to provide L2 charging and that make things a lot easier, but the numbers remains small right now. And many national parks are even more difficult to provide destination charging at, for both physical and ideological reasons. At the moment, many Tesla owners visiting natural attractions are forced to waste time in RV parks, which many of them would never desire to visit if they didn't have to, and which certainly isn't convenient or a good use of their time.dgpcolorado said:
It's a question of how you choose to spend a limited amount of money. Someday, there will be high-speed rail in California that will allow people to travel from the Bay Area to LA. But that someday is a long way away, and in the meantime they're starting to build it in the area with the least traffic and ridership. Why should people be patient, if they know that it can be built to serve much larger numbers of people sooner? And since expansion will require public support, why would you go out of your way to alienate large numbers of actual or potential customers. Tesla has benefited up to now from not having any real long range BEV competition, but that's changing. I think they need to leverage their current infrastructure advantage now as much as possible, not force customers to wait patiently, because the major car companies can bury Tesla if they ever really get behind building out their own charging infrastructure, instead of the largely token support they've given to date. BMW may already be doing this.dgpcolorado said:
To me, there should be two priorities to SC deployment:
1. Locate superchargers to serve the maximum number of customers while providing the minimum inconvenience (see Superior, MT as an example of how NOT to do this; forcing eastbound I-90 travelers heading to Glacier NP to make a 28 mile detour to charge is just dumb).
2. Having satisfied #1, do so at the lowest long-term cost to Tesla.
scottf200
Well-known member
Related since it is "highspeed" charging. Obviously can be used as part of your traveling if you stay overnight on a multi-day trip.
Title: Tesla Model S HPWC Destination Chargers Popping Up Across U.S.
http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-hpwc-destination-chargers-popping-across-u-s/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Title: Tesla Model S HPWC Destination Chargers Popping Up Across U.S.
http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-hpwc-destination-chargers-popping-across-u-s/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
apvbguy
Well-known member
the hpwc are not high speed chargers like a super charger, they are only faster if the car is equipped with dual chargers, if not so equipped they charge like any other l2 chargerscottf200 said:
cwerdna
Well-known member
Yep. http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/high-power-wall-connector" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; are just L2 EVSEs w/Tesla's proprietary connector instead of J1772 handle with up to 80 amp output, depending on how its DIP switches are set, to match w/the supply circuit. I found a copy of the install guide at http://download.waidy.com/EV/HWPCinstallation.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. Brief blurb at http://www.teslamotors.com/sites/default/files/downloads/charging_wall_connector.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.apvbguy said:
Standard Model S ships w/10 kW OBC and can pull 40 amps max @ 208/240 volts from these. Twin OBCs (2 10 kW OBCs) means up to 80 amps.
If they're on a 50 amp circuit and set to output 40 amps, they're a tad faster than most public L2 infrastructure, which tends to be only 30 amp output max.
Yeah, prior to the story, I'd heard of Tesla giving some of these to hotels to install. They apparently gave my work 4 of them, where they're installed. It at least takes some pressure/demand off our J1772 L2 stations and 120 volt outlets.
scottf200
Well-known member
40 amp would still be pretty high for a L2!! (see how many are not http://www.pluginamerica.org/accessory-tracker?type=All&level=2&nrtl=All" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
http://www.teslamotors.com/charging#/calculator" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And both would work for hotel stays while traveling which was my point.
.
http://www.teslamotors.com/charging#/calculator" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
And both would work for hotel stays while traveling which was my point.
.
scottf200
Well-known member
New layout of the whole page - nice -http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger
The map below is a representation of the corridors they plan to enable and the timing thereof. Exact locations and timing may vary.
The map below is a representation of the corridors they plan to enable and the timing thereof. Exact locations and timing may vary.
cwerdna
Well-known member
Most public L2 J1772 infrastructure is 30 amps 208/240 volts. 40 amps, although higher isn't "pretty high", in my book.scottf200 said:
I charge at work on what are either CT2021 or CT2023 (http://www.chargepoint.com/support-guides" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false
. Our supply voltage is 208 volts and my '13 Leaf SV pulls ~5.7 to 6.0 kW typically. Volts on the same EVSEs only pull ~3.1 kW, due to their OBC. Model S on the same EVSEs I've seen typically max out at ~6.2 kW, which makes sense (30 amps * 208 volts = 6240 watts).Being able to do 80 amps (need twin OBCs) at 208 volts is pretty decent. That should yield 16.64 kW but 240 volt supply is even better, which should yield 19.2 kW, as some slower (non-Tesla) DC FCs are only 20 kW.
In comparison, Tesla Superchargers I believe typically have 90 to 120 kW max output, per attached vehicle.
apvbguy
Well-known member
do yourself and all of us a favor by stop posting !scottf200 said:
I and most other tesla owners charge at 40 amps everyday at home.
cwerdna
Well-known member
^^^
Even the supplied UMC supplied w/the Model S (http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/model-s-mobile-connector-bundle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.teslamotors.com/charging#/outlet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false supports charging at 208/240 volts @ 40 amps, making L2 @ 40 amps not so special...
Even the supplied UMC supplied w/the Model S (http://shop.teslamotors.com/products/model-s-mobile-connector-bundle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://www.teslamotors.com/charging#/outlet" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false
supports charging at 208/240 volts @ 40 amps, making L2 @ 40 amps not so special...scottf200
Well-known member
Thanks for the level headedness, Zythryn. Yes, That is what exactly I was saying - PULIC -- we were talking about traveling afterall. Obviously, homeowner can change at that rate easily. I already had plans to. There are a lot of L2 chargers that do not charge that high. Also using a NEMA 14-50 is a pretty simple solution with the built in scheduler. The P85D I test drove Sat was charged with a 14-50 at the store.Zythryn said:
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
This is simply not true (and I live there/here)! There are destination charge stations at Telluride, for example. There is a public L2 at Montrose, which could be used for a bit of extra charge, if needed, to get to Grand Junction. Yes, I am assuming that the Tesla driver would be charging at the destination, even L1 at a motel would likely work but L2 stations are becoming common at such places, at least around here.GRA said:
Sorry, I don't buy it. I routinely make much more difficult winter trips in my (very) short range LEAF. 130 miles with only 1700 feet of net elevation gain and passing through Santa Fe (with numerous L2 charge stations if a bit of extra charge is needed) with a 200+ mile range car? I realize that you don't drive an EV and hear all the horror stories here. But that trip is downright easy. Even in winter.GRA said:
Wait a minute! So current Tesla owners are rich and always fly for distances more than, say, 400 miles so all future Tesla owners will be rich and always fly everywhere? I thought the goal was to make Teslas "affordable" and make inter-state (long distance) travel possible in a BEV.GRA said:
For me, someone of modest means by the way, the thing that caught my attention when the Supercharger network was announced was that it was a paradigm shift in BEV utility. At long last someone with a BEV could do inter-state travel, even across the country, as opposed to the local/regional travel of BEVs without the Supercharger network. That's why the plethora of 200 mile BEVs being announced of late don't much interest me: they still can't get anywhere beyond a few hundred miles (leading to snide comments from ICE aficionados about how they can drive five hundred miles in their monstrous pick-up trucks, fill up in five minutes and keep going).
Using Superchargers so as to get everywhere without ever using L2 (save at home) seems like overkill to me. Someday in the future? Sure. But now, just enabling very long distance travel seems like an admirable goal to me. I guess we just plain disagree as to the intended purpose of the Supercharger network. I do agree that gateway towns/cities to National Parks need L2 destination type charging. Some already have it but more would help.
apvbguy
Well-known member
if you go to the tesla site, on the find us maps, in addition to all the SC locations you will see smaller icons that list places with "public" hpwc units. while not as numerous as chargepoint or blink L2 units they are far from being rare
GRA
Well-known member
Yes, at Telluride. Now, we need to get them at all the other downhill resorts, which at least have power available. At the moment, the typical Model S owner may well be the type who always stays in motels/hotels rather than camping out, but the Model X demographic is likely to be different, and the Model 3 demographic even more so. Do you think we're going to see L1/L2 EVSEs at locations like Natural Bridges, which is off-grid and gets its power from a PV array? Or most backcountry trailheads, which lack any power at all? Or most campgrounds in National Parks? Believe me, I surveyed many of the likely or needed locations for L1 or L2 charging along Highway 120 to/through Yosemite back in 2012, and most of them either don't have electricity at all or have very limited capacity. Sitting at an L1 or L2 for hours enroute is not an option (unless you'd be there overnight in any case).dgpcolorado said:
How long will you need to charge at that L2 (just one, or more than one?) in Montrose to get to Grand Junction? And what if you want to drive to Poncha Springs, or just up to Crested Butte? Moab is a great location for an SC, at the gateway to Arches and close enough to Canyonlands to make the round trip. But if you want to go from Moab to Mesa Verde, you're going to want another SC in Cortez (114 miles), because being forced to detour to Blanding (42 miles roundtrip from Monticello) is a huge waste of time unless you're going to Natural Bridges. And from Natural Bridges, maybe you instead want to go to Capitol Reef, Bryce or Zion (BTDT) instead of Mesa Verde. You'll need an SC in Hanksville for that.
The purpose of the SCs is to eliminate as much extra inconvenience as possible, to make driving a BEV on a trip as close to the convenience and flexibility of an ICE as you can. The fact is that even a Tesla 85 is a very poor choice for a road trip car beyond about 500 miles, because you have to waste so much time charging (the 60 even less, about 350-400 miles). Even if Tesla were to install enough SCs to provide one spaced no more than every 30 miles along interstates as is the case with gas stations, until they increase the range at the freeway speed limit (at least) in average conditions to at least 4 hours with a reserve, Teslas (and any other BEV with the same well under 4 hour range) will be very time inefficient on longer road trips.
You do, but you're hardly the typical consumer, are you? You chose to live off-grid in a rural area, and frequently drive your LEAF in winter without heat, correct? In short, you match the somewhat counter-culture demographic of my off-grid customers back when I was selling AE systems, but neither of us represents the mainstream, and Tesla is trying to sell their cars to the mainstream, as a 'no compromises' BEV. What you, I or any other early adopter/hypermiler/member of the lunatic fringedgpcolorado said:
is capable of with one of these cars is irrelevant; the SC network has to make it possible to drive them just like any other car. For a lot of debate/discussion at TMC about SC spacing, SC philosophy etc. see: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/12278-What-s-the-Ideal-Distance-Between-Superchargers" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;and http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/19400-Supercharger-Spacing" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
for starters. Unlike either of us, these people are Tesla owners.
1. For all practical purposes, yes for business. 2. You don't have to be rich to know that beyond a certain distance, and with limited vacation time as most people have, it's usually cheaper and almost always faster to fly than drive. When my distinctly lower middle-class friend decided to take his wife and daughter to Disney World from the Bay Area, he didn't decide to spend 3 plus days driving each way out of his 9 days off, they flew and rented a car in Orlando. ISTR that you've said you were retired or semi-retired, and if so, time constraints are less of an issue for you than they would be for most.dgpcolorado said:
Not what I'm suggesting. Ideally, you have L1 or L2 at destinations, but that's going to take years if not decades. Someday in the future? Sure.dgpcolorado said:
We disagree about the gateway towns needing L2, they need QCs for everyone who isn't staying at a hotel/motel, PLUS L1/L2 for those who are. Much as I perceive you to be, I decided that my life philosophy wasn't going to be structured around making lots of money, but spending more time enjoying the natural world. I've taken week-long road trips from the Bay Area to many of the areas we've discussed, including hiking/backpacking in most of the national parks/monuments in Utah, Rocky Mountain, Grand Teton (and the Wind Rivers), Great Basin, Yellowstone, and Grand Canyon, plus Rainier and multiple weekend/week-long trips (many X-C skiing) to Lassen, Yosemite, Sequoia/Kings Canyon, the Ancient Bristlecone Pine Forest and/or Death Valley - haven't made it to Glacier yet, and I need to before they've all melted. I've also designed and installed a PV system in Yosemite and I know what kind of hassle that entails, as well as the near total lack of electric infrastructure in most of the places where destination charging would be needed by people who like the same kinds of activities I do (which I believe includes you, to some degree). Given their current deployment, the SCs just don't cut it for these kinds of trips, and the L1s/L2s at destinations still mostly don't exist.dgpcolorado said:
L1s/L2s alone in gateway towns won't do it. Coming out from a weekend or week-long trip on a Sunday afternoon to the trailhead where my car's parked (and where there's typically no electricity), the last thing I or my passengers want to do is have to spend eight hours cooling our heels getting an L2 charge in some place like Lee Vining (where no L2s exist at the moment except at the RV park, and where I was told in 2012 that they are fully booked in summer, so that charging an EV barring a months-ahead reservation wouldn't be possible in any case, and I'd have to pay full overnight rate for a space) so I can get to the (hopefully soon to open, and should have been built a year ago) SC in Manteca, when I've still got a 4 hour drive to make from Lee Vining to get home so that I can be at work the next day.
I figure that a 200 mile range BEV like the Model 3 or the Bolt is good for a practical radius of 250 (flattish) miles in typical conditions to a maximum of 300 miles in ideal conditions for a weekend trip by an average consumer, including one enroute SC, without charging being a huge time suck compared to an ICE. 85s boost that out to 500 to maybe 600 miles radius, if you're willing to accept two enroute SC stops, i.e. one 40-45 minute stop that you wouldn't ordinarily make. Of course, long range BEVs won't be competing purely against themselves or other ICEs, they'll also be competing against PHEVs and potentially FCHVs, all of which share the fast refueling capability that offers time efficiency and flexibility on longer road trips.
I think we've exhausted this particular topic on our philosophies of SC deployment and location, so will just have to agree to disagree.
GRA
Well-known member
BTW, a couple of Tesla devotees with far more dedication than I have counted the North America (and Asia and Europe) SC icons on the new 2015 and 2016 SC maps and say that the North American total for the end of 2015 is 294 (as I understand it, should be 291 if you count the double stations in New England once only, as I do on my list) + 22 in Canada. End of 2016 is 418, +-5: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/38778-Supercharger-growth/page15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The NA total at the end of 2014 was 144 + 7 = 151, so we can check back in 2016 and 2017 at this time to see if they've managed to come anywhere near their new projections, or if once again they've under-delivered by 1/3rd or more - anyone can put icons on a map.
The NA total at the end of 2014 was 144 + 7 = 151, so we can check back in 2016 and 2017 at this time to see if they've managed to come anywhere near their new projections, or if once again they've under-delivered by 1/3rd or more - anyone can put icons on a map.
abasile
Well-known member
I agree with dgpcolorado that focusing SC deployment on major corridors makes sense at this time. No one buying a Tesla in 2015 should expect the network to be dense enough to support long drives "off the beaten path" without seeking out L2 opportunities, detouring for charging, etc. The honest truth is that some compromises are required to use even a Tesla S-85 on many road trips. You have to do some planning.GRA said:
Given that SCs are a marketing expense and they help drive demand for Tesla vehicles while maintaining customer satisfaction, however, I agree with GRA that putting them in some national/state/provincial park "gateway" towns will be a worthy goal for the future. I also enjoy visiting natural areas with wide open space and little or no electrical infrastructure. Joshua Tree National Park and the Mojave Preserve are two places that come to mind near me. The Barstow, CA Supercharger ought to be adequate for visiting the Mojave Preserve, but for Joshua Tree, it would be ideal to have an SC in the town of Joshua Tree, CA so as to enable us to stick to the back roads (18 to Big Bear Lake and Lucerne Valley, 247 to Yucca Valley, and 62 to Joshua Tree), camp inside the park, and drive all around the park. This is more of a "nice to have" than a "must have", though, as we could always go down to I-10 and have our choice of Superchargers there.
In deciding where to focus their SC efforts, Tesla should obviously seek to attract as many new customers as possible while maintaining customer satisfaction. I would note that they are now choosing to target some city centers where many people cannot charge at home or might only have access to 120 V. In those markets, the SCs are becoming a bit like gas stations.
dgpcolorado
Well-known member
Bolt? Do you really think that GM would pay for admission to Tesla's Supercharger network and make the Bolt Supercharger capable? It remains to be seen if the Bolt concept car will even be produced but, if so, I'd be astonished if it was Supercharger capable. [That goes double for the LEAF 2, since Nissan has shown no interest in adding TMS to the LEAF thus far.]GRA said:
I'd like to be wrong about that, however. It would make things really interesting to have Supercharger capable cars from multiple manufacturers. And more players might mean more Supercharger station locations.
By the way. I do not live "off grid". I have a typical grid-tied solar array, albeit much smaller than that of most folks here at MNL with solar. [I even have natural gas service — I was very surprised that one of the gas companies put in dozens of miles of gas lines down every road in my remote rural neighborhood a decade ago. Turns out that the volume of the pipes they add to their network helps them with gas storage and buffering, and benefits the whole system. Didn't know that.]
