Tesla Supercharger Network

[Deleted member 14724]

Do you really think that GM would pay for admission to Tesla's Supercharger network and make the Bolt Supercharger capable? It remains to be seen if the Bolt concept car will even be produced but, if so, I'd be astonished if it was Supercharger capable. [That goes double for the LEAF 2, since Nissan has shown no interest in adding TMS to the LEAF thus far.]

I'd like to be wrong about that, however. It would make things really interesting to have Supercharger capable cars from multiple manufacturers. And more players might mean more Supercharger station locations.

I think only a desperate carmaker would pay for Supercharger access. The others don't think it's necessary, I bet. Maybe someone like Mitsubishi or Suzuki, Isuzu, or Volvo. In particular, perhaps one of the makers with a somewhat unsuccessful American brand, but having a huge conglomerate behind them might be willing to give it a go. But probably not a top tier maker. I just don't know if they would see enough upside. That might well help the EV market, and help them sell some EVs, but EVs are not where they actually make profit, so there is no reason to throw money into something which might provide no return for them.

 

[GRA]

...I figure that a 200 mile range BEV like the Model 3 or the Bolt...

Bolt? Do you really think that GM would pay for admission to Tesla's Supercharger network and make the Bolt Supercharger capable? It remains to be seen if the Bolt concept car will even be produced but, if so, I'd be astonished if it was Supercharger capable. [That goes double for the LEAF 2, since Nissan has shown no interest in adding TMS to the LEAF thus far.]

No, I imagine GM, BMW, VW et al will realize that they have to step up and support CCS-1 deployment here. As they (not GM) have done with CCS-2 in Europe. Although CCS-1 in California is coming along fairly well, albeit due to the legal settlement.

I'd like to be wrong about that, however. It would make things really interesting to have Supercharger capable cars from multiple manufacturers. And more players might mean more Supercharger station locations.


By the way. I do not live "off grid". I have a typical grid-tied solar array, albeit much smaller than that of most folks here at MNL with solar. [I even have natural gas service — I was very surprised that one of the gas companies put in dozens of miles of gas lines down every road in my remote rural neighborhood a decade ago. Turns out that the volume of the pipes they add to their network helps them with gas storage and buffering, and benefits the whole system. Didn't know that.]

Sorry, couldn't remember if you were intertie or stand alone. Given your location, I thought it more likely that you were beyond a power line. And I'm amazed that you have NG instead of the usual propane tank - I can't imagine a major California utility like PG&E would ever consider serving a rural area as low density as yours apparently is with NG pipelines. And you may not be off-grid, but you (and I) are or have been bike commuters, which puts us firmly out on the edge of society (even in a place like Boulder)

 

[GRA]

<snip>
Given that SCs are a marketing expense and they help drive demand for Tesla vehicles while maintaining customer satisfaction, however, I agree with GRA that putting them in some national/state/provincial park "gateway" towns will be a worthy goal for the future. I also enjoy visiting natural areas with wide open space and little or no electrical infrastructure. Joshua Tree National Park and the Mojave Preserve are two places that come to mind near me. The Barstow, CA Supercharger ought to be adequate for visiting the Mojave Preserve, but for Joshua Tree, it would be ideal to have an SC in the town of Joshua Tree, CA so as to enable us to stick to the back roads (18 to Big Bear Lake and Lucerne Valley, 247 to Yucca Valley, and 62 to Joshua Tree), camp inside the park, and drive all around the park. This is more of a "nice to have" than a "must have", though, as we could always go down to I-10 and have our choice of Superchargers there.

BTW, while Joshua Tree might be ideal, wouldn't Yucca Valley work? There a mall with restaurants etc. at the junction of 62 and 247, and that might be a more likely location.

 

[dgpcolorado]

...And I'm amazed that you have NG instead of the usual propane tank - I can't imagine a major California utility like PG&E would ever consider serving a rural area as low density as yours apparently is with NG pipelines. And you may not be off-grid, but you (and I) are or have both been bike commuters, which puts us firmly out on the edge of society (even in a place like Boulder)

Yes, I was very surprised when they put the NG lines in. My entire county has a population of about 4500 and I don't live anywhere near either of the two municipalities. I stayed with propane for several more years but finally took the plunge and had a gas line installed by having it trenched across my cul-de-sac and down my long driveway. Then I had to have the furnace and stove converted and buy a new on-demand water heater because they can't be converted. IIRC, it cost around three thousand dollars to make the switch but NG is quite a bit less expensive than propane and I can skip the huge hassle of dealing with Amerigas (which is notorious in our area for poor service) and their wildly fluctuating propane prices.

 

[GRA]

As of 1/10/15, DeFuniak Springs, FL, with 5 stalls is on the map. Total U.S. SCs now 36/146/955.

Current list showing all SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

Meant to cut and paste this into a standalone post, and instead edited my previous reply and cut most of it, which has now disappeared. Ah, well:

<snip>
Given that SCs are a marketing expense and they help drive demand for Tesla vehicles while maintaining customer satisfaction, however, I agree with GRA that putting them in some national/state/provincial park "gateway" towns will be a worthy goal for the future. I also enjoy visiting natural areas with wide open space and little or no electrical infrastructure. Joshua Tree National Park and the Mojave Preserve are two places that come to mind near me. The Barstow, CA Supercharger ought to be adequate for visiting the Mojave Preserve, but for Joshua Tree, it would be ideal to have an SC in the town of Joshua Tree, CA so as to enable us to stick to the back roads (18 to Big Bear Lake and Lucerne Valley, 247 to Yucca Valley, and 62 to Joshua Tree), camp inside the park, and drive all around the park. This is more of a "nice to have" than a "must have", though, as we could always go down to I-10 and have our choice of Superchargers there.

While Joshua Tree might be ideal, wouldn't Yucca Valley work? There's a mall with restaurants etc. at the junction of 62 and 247, and that might be a more likely location. Of course, it's only 33.5 miles from the Cabazon SC, but that didn't stop them at Milford and Darien.

In deciding where to focus their SC efforts, Tesla should obviously seek to attract as many new customers as possible while maintaining customer satisfaction. I would note that they are now choosing to target some city centers where many people cannot charge at home or might only have access to 120 V. In those markets, the SCs are becoming a bit like gas stations.

I have to wonder if the SC business model will work in this situation. The problem with paying for everything up front with free supercharging forever is that it assumes the SCs will get infrequent use by any one car, so few people will ever use enough electricity to come out ahead. When you put them in areas where lots of local residents will use them on a regular basis, that throws the costs out of whack. Will they start installing battery storage at these sites so that they aren't paying peak rates much of the time? How much will that boost their capital and maintenance costs per site?

 

[GRA]

As of 1/16/15, Brattleboro, VT, with 8 stalls, and Hooksett, NH (SB only) with 6 stalls is listed and mapped. NB should open shortly, and when it does I'll combine them into one listing, as for Darien CT etc. Total U.S. SCs now 38/148/969.

Current list showing all SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

As of 1/17/15, Grove City, OH with 8 stalls and Needles, CA with 4 stalls are listed and mapped. Total U.S. SCs now 38/150/981.

Current list showing all SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[scottf200]

As of 1/17/15, Grove City, OH with 8 stalls and Needles, CA with 4 stalls are listed and mapped. Total U.S. SCs now 38/150/981.<snip>

Totals from http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Curr: 347 Supercharger stations with 1,902 Superchargers
Prev: 338 Supercharger stations with 1,868 Superchargers
Diff: 009 Supercharger stations with 0,034 Superchargers

 

[abasile]

... it would be ideal to have an SC in the town of Joshua Tree, CA so as to enable us to stick to the back roads (18 to Big Bear Lake and Lucerne Valley, 247 to Yucca Valley, and 62 to Joshua Tree), camp inside the park, and drive all around the park. This is more of a "nice to have" than a "must have", though, as we could always go down to I-10 and have our choice of Superchargers there.

While Joshua Tree might be ideal, wouldn't Yucca Valley work? There's a mall with restaurants etc. at the junction of 62 and 247, and that might be a more likely location. Of course, it's only 33.5 miles from the Cabazon SC, but that didn't stop them at Milford and Darien.

Sure, Yucca Valley would work, as would 29 Palms. Actually, an SC in 29 Palms would facilitate trips further into the desert while still supporting Joshua Tree National Park visits, and would also be helpful to some people spending time at the US Marine base there. At 54 miles from the Cabazon SC, 103 miles from the Barstow SC, ~70 miles from the Indio SC, 131 miles from the new Needles SC, and 152 miles from the SC in Quartzsite, AZ, a Supercharger site in 29 Palms would do a nice job of supporting a number of different drives through that desert region.

In deciding where to focus their SC efforts, Tesla should obviously seek to attract as many new customers as possible while maintaining customer satisfaction. I would note that they are now choosing to target some city centers where many people cannot charge at home or might only have access to 120 V. In those markets, the SCs are becoming a bit like gas stations.

I have to wonder if the SC business model will work in this situation. The problem with paying for everything up front with free supercharging forever is that it assumes the SCs will get infrequent use by any one car, so few people will ever use enough electricity to come out ahead. When you put them in areas where lots of local residents will use them on a regular basis, that throws the costs out of whack. Will they start installing battery storage at these sites so that they aren't paying peak rates much of the time? How much will that boost their capital and maintenance costs per site?

Yes, I wonder the same things. Maybe it won't be so bad if local drivers can charge at 120 V at home and/or work, and mainly use the SCs to "top off" for longer drives. I personally wouldn't recommend a BEV to anyone without at least some regular access to charging, even 120 V, where they won't have to wait. Cities should help here by installing curbside EVSEs.

 

[GRA]

... it would be ideal to have an SC in the town of Joshua Tree, CA so as to enable us to stick to the back roads (18 to Big Bear Lake and Lucerne Valley, 247 to Yucca Valley, and 62 to Joshua Tree), camp inside the park, and drive all around the park. This is more of a "nice to have" than a "must have", though, as we could always go down to I-10 and have our choice of Superchargers there.

While Joshua Tree might be ideal, wouldn't Yucca Valley work? There's a mall with restaurants etc. at the junction of 62 and 247, and that might be a more likely location. Of course, it's only 33.5 miles from the Cabazon SC, but that didn't stop them at Milford and Darien.

Sure, Yucca Valley would work, as would 29 Palms. Actually, an SC in 29 Palms would facilitate trips further into the desert while still supporting Joshua Tree National Park visits, and would also be helpful to some people spending time at the US Marine base there. At 54 miles from the Cabazon SC, 103 miles from the Barstow SC, ~70 miles from the Indio SC, 131 miles from the new Needles SC, and 152 miles from the SC in Quartzsite, AZ, a Supercharger site in 29 Palms would do a nice job of supporting a number of different drives through that desert region.

I got my hands on a better map (AAA Southern California Sectional) of the area Friday, and agree that 29 Palms would be best, given the access that it provides to people heading north towards Needles (and historic Route 66), and the loop to Indio/Cabazon. Less ideal for you, as it forces you to go in via the north entrance instead of the west one, but that does look to be the main route through the Park.

 

[GRA]

As of 1/20/15, Hooksett, NH (NB) with 6 stalls is now listed and mapped. I'll merge the two Hooksett sites into one listing. Total U.S. SCs now 38/150/987.

Current list showing all SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

As of 1/21/15, Wichita, KS with 6 stalls, and Redondo Beach, CA with 8 stalls are listed and mapped. Total U.S. SCs now 36/152/1001.

While I've been very critical of Tesla for their repeated failures to meet their own, voluntarily-announced deployment timelines, as well as some of their SC deployment choices, credit where it's due - they have now, by my count, installed just over 1,000 SC stalls in the U.S., available 24/7 in multiple at each site, something which no other BEV manufacturer has come close to (or even made the attempt, FTM), so pats on the back for them.

For context, as discussed upthread Tesla's 2015 map shows a total of 291 SC sites in the U.S. (I'm counting the 4 existing double sites and any future ones only once for purposes of trip planning, but twice for construction), which with the 144 existing sites at the end of the 2014 means they have to complete 147 new sites this year, or an average of 12.25 sites every month to reach their goal. For comparison, last year they only completed 94 sites, or 7.83/month, and they have never averaged 12.25/month for a single quarter in the U.S. We know it can be done, as they averaged 15.33/month in 1Q/2104 in Europe, and then 13.33/month in 2Q/2014 also in Europe. So far this month they've completed 9 counting Hooksett twice, or 8 counting it once, so they still need another 3 to 5 to stay on target.

Current list showing all SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

As of 1/22/15, Baton Rouge, LA with 6 stalls, and West Wendover, NV with 6 stalls, are listed and mapped. Total U.S. SCs now 38/154/1,013.

As of 1/22/15, Montreal, QC with 2 stalls, and Red Deer, AB with 4 stalls, are listed and mapped. Total Canadian SCs now 4/9/48.

Current list showing all U.S. and Canadian SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[scottf200]

Worldwide numbers via: http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Curr: 358 Supercharger stations with 1,956 Superchargers
Prev: 354 Supercharger stations with 1,936 Superchargers

 

[GRA]

Curr: 358 Supercharger stations with 1,956 Superchargers
Prev: 354 Supercharger stations with 1,936 Superchargers

Just to eliminate any possibility of confusion, those are the worldwide numbers, not just U.S. or North America.

 

[GRA]

Since Tesla has now realized that the original SC listing method, divided alphabetically roughly east and west of the Mississippi, had outgrown its usefulness and has been changed to listing all states alphabetically, I have redone the master lists ditto. It's much easier to use now.

Lone Pine, CA will probably be listed and mapped in the next few days if not later tonight; there's already an unconfirmed report that it's live, and a local newspaper article stated that it would be open tomorrow.

 

[GRA]

As of 1/28/15, Lone Pine, CA with 4 stalls and Lovelock, NV with 4 stalls are listed and mapped. Total U.S. SCs now 38/156/1,021.

Current list showing all U.S. and Canadian SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GRA]

Just an end-of-month tally. As discussed upthread, Tesla needs to average 12.25 SC 'dots' completed every month this year to reach their announced 2015 U.S. goal. In January, they did 13 (I'm including Lexington, KY in the count as it was reported working 1/29, although it hasn't yet been listed or mapped), or 14 sites counting both at Hooksett separately. So far, so good, but in the past they've done better (in the U.S.) early in the year and then fallen off badly, so they need to not slack off.

 

[GRA]

As of 2/3/15, Elko, NV with 6 stalls is listed. Total U.S. SCs now 38/157/1,027.

As of 2/3/15, Barrie, ON with 8 stalls, and Kingston, ON with 2 stalls, are listed and mapped (both open 1/29). Total Canadian SCs now 4/11/58.

Lexington remains missing from both list and map, despite first being used 1/29.

Current list showing all U.S. and Canadian SCs open as of 1/1/15 and subsequent, and full list showing all SCs open from 1/14, can be found here:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&start=810

Site with a map showing all SCs open, under construction or permitted plus lots of other stuff can be found here:

http://supercharge.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;