So long, and thanks!

[BrockWI]

I am confused on the warming aspect of the batteries. I get the really cold end, but the Leaf covers that. Most of the time I keep our car garaged at about 40F and the range to work with a battery pack starting at 40F is the same as the range home with the battery pack cold soaking for 16 hours at -15F in the wind. Granted the pack might only get down to 0F, but I get the same range on the return trip and yes it's bad both ways

As for cooling, well we hit 90+F 5 times a year so fortunately I don't need to worry about that end as much.

I think the cost, complexity and importantly energy consumption of active TMS is more than most people are counting it as, I bet it would easily add $1000+ to the cost and more weight as well. Not to mention coming to out to a car in Phoenix only to find 10% of the battery gone trying to cool it off, or up here 10% gone trying to warm it up.

I am not saying I am against it, I am for it, but I think at this cost point and current battery size / density it is hard to add to a car and keep it at this cost.

Oh Desiv I am going to have to bookmark that post,I believe it perfectly sums up where I think we are and where we are going

 

[walterbays]

Not to mention coming to out to a car in Phoenix only to find 10% of the battery gone trying to cool it off, or up here 10% gone trying to warm it up.

I thought that would have been the case with Volt, but it turns out not to be an issue because the BMS software makes some intelligent choices about when and how much to heat or cool.

Some have suggested that the most important time to cool the battery is during charging, when you already have a power source for cooling that would take nothing from the battery. It might save a lot of battery degradation if it only cooled during charging. Only the car makers know for sure and it doesn't seem like any of them are talking.

 

[CRLeafSL]

I am confused on the warming aspect of the batteries. I get the really cold end, but the Leaf covers that. Most of the time I keep our car garaged at about 40F and the range to work with a battery pack starting at 40F is the same as the range home with the battery pack cold soaking for 16 hours at -15F in the wind. Granted the pack might only get down to 0F, but I get the same range on the return trip and yes it's bad both ways

100 % disagree here. I'm not talking about the stupid complete worthless waist of time "battery warmer" joke Nissan put in there to prevent the battery from bricking in really cold temps. That's the most stupid idea I have ever heard. With that said, Nissan hasn't addressed the issue. What I'm talking about is keeping the battery around 70 degrees even if it's -25 degrees outside. You would have so much more capacity if the battery was kept at 70 degrees. I don't have a luxury to keep my car in a garage since I don't have one and I'm sure I'm not the only one in America that owns a car and doesn't have a garage. There are multiple days here per year that get well below zero and I had no bars on the battery temp bar. At that point the car is pretty much useless. I also don't buy that the complexity of a liquid cooling loop to the battery is that hard or would add that much weight even if you used copper tubing. It's not that hard and I'm sure Nissan being as big of company as they are can do it if they want to. I also don't believe that it would be near $1000 to add it. $500 maybe.

 

[nerys]

Me thinks there is something seriously wrong with your numbers... Or you are a serious outlier...

for me the volt is not even a remote option on a remote table anywhere. too expensive.
even a craphole prius is a better option at $78,000 over 10 years.

Most definitely a serious outlier. alas I can only give data I have and that is data on me and is the data that decides my decisions just for the hell of it here is how I came up with the numbers.

I calculate what I call a 10 year TRC or Total Real Cost. kind of an oxymoron since I can't predict ALL the costs but I can make assumptions on the most dominant numbers and assumptions on the rest being "relatively equal and therefore irrelevant"

For example I don't have to include tires or regular maintenance since ALL of them will or should be equal in this regard. 4 tires etc.. etc..

I also eliminate most "other" maintenance by using only brand new cars. I have in my experience gotten 300,000+ miles on a car without any major repairs so it is a fair assumption.

I do not include electricity since I get it for free of "$ cost" to myself. 70+ % of my charging as at my 2 jobs neither of which charges me for power and around 50% of the rest of my power is offset with solar that is pre existing. (over the years in anticipation of having an EV and because it is fun to mess with) so maybe $100 a year in power? if you want we can add that cost as well. I estimate I would need $800 a year in power if I had to pay for all the power I use including at both jobs. These are my original numbers (which I am using here) my interest rate would be 12% fuel is $3.50 a gallon. (more on this later)

Nissan Leaf. $30,000 plus $10,000 interest Minus $7500 in subsidies plus $11,000 for 2 batteries plus $1000 in power. $44,500

Prius assuming 50mpg. $24,000 plus $8,000 in interest plus $28,000 in fuel Total $60,000 I originally had $78k for the prius. I did these calculations many years ago at which time I think I factored in 2 battery replacements like the Leaf but have since learned that 200+ thousands miles on an original prius battery is NOT unheard of. so figure $65,000 ?? add in 1 battery replacement.

I think I also originally ran these numbers with $4 a gallon gas average and 50,000 miles a year. adjusting to $3.5 a gallon and 40,000 a year.

Chevy Volt. I believe I used an original MSRP of $42,000 for the volt. I think you can get them for $35k now. so $27k after rebate.

the volt has VERY short all electric range (under 30 miles far less in winter) I used 40% electric for my numbers. (none of my driving is short versus time it is all long distance driving or lots of short term high density driving IE would drain the battery really fast)

30mpg after depleting the battery.

SO Volt. $35,000 plus $12,000 interest -$7500 rebate plus ?? $11,000 plus $500 in power plus $28,000 in fuel (Fascinating that it comes out to be teh same as the prius!!!)

Batteries? this one is up in the air. I have seen prices as low as $4000 and as high as $34,000. so let us just assume "leaf like" prices.

as at the new lower price at the new lower miles per year and using a lower price per gallon the Volt now comes in at $79,000

as you can see the leaf is about HALF the price

And there is more savings to be added. at my mileage I would perform oil changes at least 5 times a year (usually every 2 to 3 months usually around 8,000 miles) that is $650 more dollar on the price of the volt and prius and that is "do it myself prices" if I goto a local 10 minute place $1100 more

you also have other maintenance that adds up over time but is not "major"

Fuel system Emissions system and Exhaust systems maintenance that simply does not exist in the leaf.

Even if I compare it to my Geo Metro it is quite favorable. Brand new price $9,000 62mpg average. a bit less delivery driving 50mpg average over the year.

Geo Metro $9,000 plus $1700 in interest plus $28,000 in fuel Total $38,700

in my CURRENT situation these numbers would all be a little lower as I have pretty good credit now and can get an APR of 4% but it would not change the "distribution" of the values very much just where that distribution lies and I don't feel like recalculating it all

SO for my specific 40,000 miles a year driving and assuming 12% interest that is how the cookie crumbles on the cars and why I can never choose a volt (or a prius)

One other problem. unless you make $60,000 a year you are not getting the $7500 rebate. unless you do a lease then buyout and nissan gets and credits you the rebate. I make $24k a year. I would get almost zero from that rebate. (I think I figured it out at $400 can't recall for sure)

which is why I bought a used one

 

[mkjayakumar]

I returned my 2012 Cayenne Red Leaf today at the end of its 3 year lease. 13,300 miles (it ended up being a high school commuter for my kids). Lost one bar (Plano, TX).

It had a great run. After an initial DC quick charge failure that took a few days of diagnosing and ended up being a bent pin on a connector, the only service required in the 3 years were tire rotations (done for free at Discount Tire where we have always bought our tires) and 2 battery checks. Didn't spend a dollar.

I've replaced it with a 2 year lease on a BMW i3 (no range extender). We know the BEV works for us.

Cheezmo: I hope you enjoy your i3. It is definitely a fun car to drive, but with the same range and the lease being twice (or perhaps more than twice) as expensive, I took the i3 off my list.

I know you are an all BEV family - two volts and a leaf (now replaced with an i3).

Would appreciate if you could pop in here occasionally and give us an update on your i3

 

[eloder]

I am confused on the warming aspect of the batteries. I get the really cold end, but the Leaf covers that. Most of the time I keep our car garaged at about 40F and the range to work with a battery pack starting at 40F is the same as the range home with the battery pack cold soaking for 16 hours at -15F in the wind. Granted the pack might only get down to 0F, but I get the same range on the return trip and yes it's bad both ways

As for cooling, well we hit 90+F 5 times a year so fortunately I don't need to worry about that end as much.

I think the cost, complexity and importantly energy consumption of active TMS is more than most people are counting it as, I bet it would easily add $1000+ to the cost and more weight as well. Not to mention coming to out to a car in Phoenix only to find 10% of the battery gone trying to cool it off, or up here 10% gone trying to warm it up.

I am not saying I am against it, I am for it, but I think at this cost point and current battery size / density it is hard to add to a car and keep it at this cost.

Oh Desiv I am going to have to bookmark that post,I believe it perfectly sums up where I think we are and where we are going

There's a Tesla out there with 100k miles with 92% original capacity left.

Smart EDs have a smaller battery and suffer only 1-2% range degradation a year.

If you think active TMS doesn't make a difference, you should research how it impacts batteries. EV batteries should not degrade like cell phone battery, and unfortunately Nissan is giving a lot of people that impression.

 

[BrockWI]

If you think active TMS doesn't make a difference, you should research how it impacts batteries. EV batteries should not degrade like cell phone battery, and unfortunately Nissan is giving a lot of people that impression.

I have and if you are referring to me, I did say, and I quote

I am not saying I am against it, I am for it, but I think at this cost point and current battery size / density it is hard to add to a car and keep it at this cost.

I would really prefer a better BMS / active TMS and I do agree it makes a huge difference in battery life, but I think they were trying to make the Leaf as simple / inexpensive as they could thinking it might be ok. We have proven it's not. I keep thinking if they did have an active system and the car cost more would it have moved it out of reach for some folks. Or if the system, again being a first gen had issues, it is just more parts to have issues with, ones that could be much more significant than reduced battery life.

I'm not talking about the stupid complete worthless waist of time "battery warmer" joke Nissan put in there to prevent the battery from bricking in really cold temps.

If I didn't have them I would be willing to bet I would have frozen the battery solid. I have had the car outside for days in a row in sub 0 and the heaters definitely came on and I still have a working battery. So I, for one, am glad they at least put them in as a joke for my sake.

 

[nerys]

then again. by not using a TMS research into non TMS solutions is encouraged. that could also result in good things

sadly we are guinea pigs for it but so far I am "ok" with that.

if not for the huge depreciation these cars are seeing I would not have been able to afford one at all.

though dammit I wish I had waited 6 more months. could have gotten a 2015 for the same price as I paid for my 2012.

 

[CRLeafSL]

then again. by not using a TMS research into non TMS solutions is encouraged. that could also result in good things

sadly we are guinea pigs for it but so far I am "ok" with that.

if not for the huge depreciation these cars are seeing I would not have been able to afford one at all.

though dammit I wish I had waited 6 more months. could have gotten a 2015 for the same price as I paid for my 2012.

Sorry I don't agree that there are any other/better options than TMS. My mind is made up that TMS is the best way to properly manage not only battery longevity but also alot better cold climate capabilities. Nobody or no article is going to change my mind. I will not ever own another EV without Liquid TMS on the battery. Period.

 

[desiv]

Sorry I don't agree that there are any other/better options than TMS. .

Nothing to be sorry about.
It's your opinion.
Others disagree. That's our opinion.
That's what is great about the market. There's likely to be options for all of us.. ;-)

desiv

 

[nerys]

You disagree with nothing from me then as i never said either was better or worse. I simply stated it has the potential to drive inmovation. Nothing more.

Unless you are telling me a battery more resistant to tenp damages that also has tms is not better than existing batteries with tms?

I personally prefer non tms. The reason is simple. I could not afford a bev if it had tms.

I do however agree adding tms will likely always result in better longevity.

Not relevant if i can not afford it However. Of course we would all love a tesla

Couple more years....

 

[CRLeafSL]

The thing is that I'm trying to express is You can afford an electric car with a TMS if Nissan was to make one. It really can't be that expensive nor complicated to liquid heat/cool a battery. The most complicated part of the whole system would be setting up the battery to be liquid heated/cooled. The rest is minimal. The car already has a cooling loop for the Motor/charger/Inverter, you can't tell me that it would take that much to add the battery into the same loop. I still think if Nissan was to add it into the existing Leaf setup, the cost wouldn't go up that much.

 

[nerys]

Then why did they omit it? What is the profit margin of this car in 2010?

 

[CRLeafSL]

Honestly I think they did omit it for two reasons. Yes it will add cost to the vehicle and they were/are trying to minimize cost to keep the overall cost of the vehicle down even though I really don't think adding the TMS back in would drive the cost up that much and second simplicity. They want the car to be as maintenance free as possible for a selling point against ICE cars. I also don't think a TMS would add that much maintenance to the vehicle, but what do I know? I don't work for Nissan nor am I an engineer but if I did have any say or decision making on this car you can bet for sure it Would be on it.

 

[eloder]

You disagree with nothing from me then as i never said either was better or worse. I simply stated it has the potential to drive inmovation. Nothing more.

Unless you are telling me a battery more resistant to tenp damages that also has tms is not better than existing batteries with tms?

I personally prefer non tms. The reason is simple. I could not afford a bev if it had tms.

I do however agree adding tms will likely always result in better longevity.

Not relevant if i can not afford it However. Of course we would all love a tesla

Couple more years....

I'm confused though.

$5000 every 3-5 years for a new battery that can actually get you to the places you need is a lot more expensive than the maybe $1-2k for TMS on a car. Just because the first battery is free on a warranty doesn't mean the cost won't come back, or it could harm resale value of someone afraid of the replacement due to a lack of TMS.

You don't see Tesla drivers worried about battery replacement costs, or smart ED drivers, or other Volt drivers. This problem is absolutely unique to Leaf and non-TMS batteries.

 

[desiv]

$5000 every 3-5 years for a new battery that can actually get you to the places.

Hyperbole much??? :shock:

Jeremy Clarkson fan?

No one who had a battery degrade in the heat was happy about that. Obviously it wasn't a good thing.
As a result Nissan has changed the battery chemistry.
Early reports seem to point out that it has helped.
How much? Too soon to tell...

But Nissan is trying to address the issue, just not the way you want them to...
There are other EV makers who are using active TMS.

And the comparison of a $30k car to a $70k+ car.. er.. Shock, the $70k car is better. ;-)
Solutions for everyone. So we can all be happy! YAY! ;-)

desiv

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

^ That in itself is remarkable. Usually the $70k car is worse than the $30k car.

 

[nerys]

you assume it is 1 to 2 k. maybe it is. I have no idea.

my point remains. if nissan did not make such a cheap ev I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO OWN ONE.

especially BECAUSE of its short range. without that depreciation in value I could never afford one.

comparing to a tesla? that is simply silly in extreme. OF COURSE they do not worry about the battery. even if they lose 50% of their capacity they can still drive further than a brand new leaf.

smart ed? a joke right? it is not even 1 year old yet. who the heck KNOWS what issues they may or may not have or complain about etc.. we will have to wait 4 or 5 years and see.

so far I have seen 0 degredation in battery capacity in nearly 14,000 miles. I was seriously concerned at first since the car came with 11% battery capacity loss (89%) but this might be damage from actually NOT being used?? (OP only put 4802 miles on the car)

I have since put 14,000 on the car and so far 0 measurable loss at least according to what leafspy is showing me. granted have not gone through a summer yet so ask me again in 6 months hehe

so maybe I was more concerned than I need to be.

I am also pushing the car for mileage it was NEVER really designed or intended to deliver. I am pushing 70 to 130 miles a DAY out of the car (I charge between deliveries) and doing single leg runs of 54 miles one way for my other job.

the car was really not designed for someone like me. it was designed for someone doing 34 miles a day. (do the math. 100,000 miles later winter heat going the car will still go 34 miles on a charge with normal degradation etc..)

I went into this eyes open however. I fully get I might not make that 54mile trip next winter or the winter after. I can live with not being able to use the heat below 30' for that 54mile run. I can live with no heat delivering.

so I am an outlier for sure. but my god the savings if I can make it work!!

no joke. I have receipts. I was dropping $120 a week in gas every single week. $60 twice a week without fail. now I spend $0 a week in gas (ok $20 to fill the metro but I still have half a tank left in it)

For reasons of comfort I was driving the minivan. I could not climb into and out of my geo metro 50 times a day. I just could not do it. my back won't tolerate that. 13mpg delivering. that is $2600 at CURRENT prices Nearly $3800 at "when I bought the leaf" prices.

add another $100 a year for oil changes.

all gone. poof.

all because nissan both made one cheap enough AND it depreciated so insanely fast that I could afford to get one (because I sure as hell can not afford a $35,000 car!!) does not matter if it will pay for itself in fuel I can't make the payments.

would I prefer a TMS? sure. does it kill me that it does not have one? nope. not really. I can't change it so I don't really care.

when I can afford a nicer car maybe I will care. in the mean time. it is not relevant to me.

I would kill to own a tesla. I would need to TRIPLE my level of income to get one of those.

 

[CRLeafSL]

See that's where we differ. I do care if it has a TMS because it HAS to for me to own or lease another one. I am not one to be cold. I can take heat much more than I can take cold so I still think they have done absolutely nothing to help range in the cold. I could really care less what they do for heat with chemistry. A TMS would fix both. I'm not the one comparing a Tesla to a Leaf. Not once have I brought Tesla into the conversation because quite simply I can't afford one. Even one at half price of new is still too much for me so it's silly to even bring Tesla into this discussion. All I'm saying is I could afford a leaf if a TMS was 1k to 2k more than a Leaf without which I'm 100% confident that it wouldn't exceed 2k. I doubt it would even be 1k to be honest. Still way cheaper than a Tesla so why keep bringing up Tesla? It's an oranges to Apples comparison that's way out of reach for most Americans.

I see your point of no gas bill (even though your not factoring in electricity rates, it's not free) and no oil changes but unlike you, I don't make a car work for me. I expect a car I purchase to work for me without me adjusting any of my wants/needs or I don't buy or lease. I took a chance on the leaf knowing it had limited range, but the winter range is absolutely ridiculous and worthless. Something Nissan could fix if they wanted, but still refuse to do so. Until they do, I'm done with Nissan. We will see what manufacturer is smart enough to put a TMS on their 200 mile EV in the next couple of years other than Tesla. Whomever that is will have my business. If they don't, then they don't have my business. Simple as that.

 

[Reddy]

Over the years I've noticed several people who have "left the Leaf" do not have a garage, maybe even park on the street, and/or live in a cold climate, often the Midwest or Northeast. Hmmm, cold-soaked battery without TMS parked overnight at -20 F. Yuk! I can fully appreciate this. I tell everyone who asks, the Leaf (and any other EV for that matter) is awesome if you can park inside a garage and pre-heat. I've lived in apartments and had to scrape ice/snow off of the windshield, shovel the parking space only to have it taken when I leave. I've also had to endure all the other people doing the same thing while running the engine, spewing pollution and noise. Imagine doing the same thing with the Leaf and how much battery it would consume (plus the problem of being able to charge overnight at the apartment). This is not an easy use pattern for any EV, especially one without TMS.