So long, and thanks!

[ishiyakazuo]

I've never quite understood the i3 versus the Leaf. The range is nearly identical, with a REx you might as well just buy a low-end Tesla, and you can buy Leaf-range EVs with a good TMS system that aren't that much higher than a Leaf.

... if you're in California or a few other select places.
Here, your choices are basically:
- LEAF
- Volt
- i3
- i-MiEV
- Tesla Model S (don't think the Roadster ever made it out to Chicago?)

So, which of these fit that? i3 and i-MiEV. i-MiEV is seriously not a competitor. i3 is just about it... I went with Leaf because I got mine as an off-lease for an insanely good price. When the i3 and others start showing up off-lease, I might look into them.

 

[EdmondLeaf]

Nissan deserve huge credit for introducing us to affordable electric driving. Leaf completely change my thinking about electric driving and show me that there is very good alternative to gas. As time goes by, there is more and more options, and seems like Nissan is not very aggressive in telling us what is in the future. This is tough and demanding market and Nissan still sell most of EV in many cases probably with very little or no profit. I hope next Nissan EV will be big improvement otherwise Nissan EV will be for many initial step in EV experience with very little loyal returning customers.

 

[WetEV]

I've never quite understood the i3 versus the Leaf. The range is nearly identical, with a REx you might as well just buy a low-end Tesla, and you can buy Leaf-range EVs with a good TMS system that aren't that much higher than a Leaf.

... if you're in California or a few other select places.
Here, your choices are basically:
- LEAF
- Volt
- i3
- i-MiEV
- Tesla Model S (don't think the Roadster ever made it out to Chicago?)

So, which of these fit that? i3 and i-MiEV. i-MiEV is seriously not a competitor. i3 is just about it... I went with Leaf because I got mine as an off-lease for an insanely good price. When the i3 and others start showing up off-lease, I might look into them.

Add the Ford Focus Electric or FFE.

 

[asimba2]

I agree that the Leaf was the first mass-market EV, but that's the only thing going for it versus competitors.

The Fiat, Spark and Fit EVs were all too small to comfortably ride with carseats in the back and the Ford doesn't have enough cargo room to swallow a full-sized jogging stroller like the Leaf will. My 2013 shows no degradation and it's a blast to drive. Maybe my needs are different from yours, but the LEAF came out on top (by far!) when we were shopping for our first EV.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Because the Leaf and Volt were first out of the gate, they're also on track to be the first out with gen 2 versions.

 

[dhanson865]

I've never quite understood the i3 versus the Leaf. The range is nearly identical, with a REx you might as well just buy a low-end Tesla, and you can buy Leaf-range EVs with a good TMS system that aren't that much higher than a Leaf.

... if you're in California or a few other select places.
Here, your choices are basically:
- LEAF
- Volt
- i3
- i-MiEV
- Tesla Model S (don't think the Roadster ever made it out to Chicago?)

So, which of these fit that? i3 and i-MiEV. i-MiEV is seriously not a competitor. i3 is just about it... I went with Leaf because I got mine as an off-lease for an insanely good price. When the i3 and others start showing up off-lease, I might look into them.

Add the Ford Focus Electric or FFE.

http://insideevs.com/monthly-plug-in-sales-scorecard/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Is it for sale across the entire US? Is it overpriced? Or is it limited quantities for sale?

Whatever it is the Ford Focus Electric isn't exactly selling much. Oh yeah that's the one with the crazy market limitation.

the Focus Electric will be available initially only in 19 metropolitan areas including Atlanta, Houston and Austin, Texas, Boston, Chicago, Denver, Detroit, Los Angeles, San Francisco, San Diego, New York City, Orlando, Florida, Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona, Portland, Oregon, Raleigh-Durham, Richmond, Virginia, Seattle, and Washington, D.C.

heaven forbid someone not live in one of those cities.

now if FFE means Ford Fusion Energi then at least they are selling a few more of those. That one I can find on a dealer lot nearby so maybe it's a contender now.

national inventories improved considerably in February and now about 2,500 cars are once again in stock – we look for the Fusion Energi to have a resurgence in sales this Spring.

 

[TomT]

I don't quite buy in to this argument. A manufacturer just entering the market for the first time can also have a "second generation" vehicle by just taking advantage of what the "first generation" manufacturers did or did not do... So, neither Leaf nor Volt has an intrinsic advantage in this regard.

Because the Leaf and Volt were first out of the gate, they're also on track to be the first out with gen 2 versions.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

I don't quite buy in to this argument. A manufacturer just entering the market for the first time can also have a "second generation" vehicle by just taking advantage of what the "first generation" manufacturers did or did not do... So, neither Leaf nor Volt has an intrinsic advantage in this regard.

Because the Leaf and Volt were first out of the gate, they're also on track to be the first out with gen 2 versions.

But isn't that kind of like the guy who jumps into the marathon at the end and sprints to the finish line? Seems like many are ostracizing Nissan for the challenges they faced, albeit with a healthy dose of corporate wonkdom, to take the risks of productizing the technology five years earlier.

 

[dhanson865]

I don't quite buy in to this argument. A manufacturer just entering the market for the first time can also have a "second generation" vehicle by just taking advantage of what the "first generation" manufacturers did or did not do... So, neither Leaf nor Volt has an intrinsic advantage in this regard.

Because the Leaf and Volt were first out of the gate, they're also on track to be the first out with gen 2 versions.

But isn't that kind of like the guy who jumps into the marathon at the end and sprints to the finish line? Seems like many are ostracizing Nissan for the challenges they faced, albeit with a healthy dose of corporate wonkdom, to take the risks of productizing the technology five years earlier.

Does the average consumer today know who pioneered the home microwave oven? 99% probably just buy one and don't know what decade it was brought into retail.

There are those that innovate and keep ahead of the competition and those that don't. If Nissan, Toyota, etcetera can't keep up they can follow Kodak down the path of starting something but then dwindling into obscurity.

Heck why even call the Leaf gen 1? It came to market on the heels of Toyota's hybrid program that ramped up the industry to have electric motors and regen braking common items on mass produced cars. If Toyota's management knew what there would be a full EV based on what they learned from the Prius projects.

It doesn't matter that Toyota didn't do it and Nissan did. Mass market wise the Leaf is a derivative of the Prius in many ways.

 

[desiv]

While I agree that it won't matter who started it really...

It came to market on the heels of Toyota's hybrid program that ramped up the industry to have electric motors and regen braking common items on mass produced cars. If Toyota's management knew what there would be a full EV based on what they learned from the Prius projects.

er.. We wouldn't have had a Leaf if not for the Prius?

Kind of like we wouldn't have had a GUI if not for MacOS??

Different boards, same discussions..

Lets just say I disagree... ;-)

desiv

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

Amana radarange!
I finally broke into the 1% !!!
wait...

 

[TomT]

I might be inclined to agree if Nissan had not flat-out lied to us! And then tried like hell to cover it up!

But isn't that kind of like the guy who jumps into the marathon at the end and sprints to the finish line? Seems like many are ostracizing Nissan for the challenges they faced, albeit with a healthy dose of corporate wonkdom, to take the risks of productizing the technology five years earlier.

 

[UBUYGAS]

Let us know if you are Problem Free. I have 8 Friends I see regularly that have the i3 and they all have issues with it. Strange noises. App Issues. Charging Issues.

One of the people I know has 4 EVs in his family and they said the i3 has been the worst one.

I returned my 2012 Cayenne Red Leaf today at the end of its 3 year lease. 13,300 miles (it ended up being a high school commuter for my kids). Lost one bar (Plano, TX).

It had a great run. After an initial DC quick charge failure that took a few days of diagnosing and ended up being a bent pin on a connector, the only service required in the 3 years were tire rotations (done for free at Discount Tire where we have always bought our tires) and 2 battery checks. Didn't spend a dollar.

I've replaced it with a 2 year lease on a BMW i3 (no range extender). We know the BEV works for us.

Why not another Leaf? Even though I would lease, the range loss bothers me. You just have to have thermal management on batteries in this climate. The BMW is the new cool kid on the block and with decent 2 year lease terms it felt like it would be fun to try.

My primary car remains the Chevy Volt which my wife and I love and she will replace with a new Volt this summer.

But, we loved the Leaf, it was a great introduction to EV's, was more fun to drive than I expected and as it was my daughter's first car and my son learned to drive it it, the start of a generation in our family that doesn't know how to use a gas station.

This forum was a great resource and a lot of fun to participate in, especially in the first year, when I met a couple of other Leaf drivers, borrowed a battery monitoring tool, etc.

I'll miss you guys!

 

[UBUYGAS]

https://www.facebook.com/groups/BMWi3/permalink/810987558975107/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[CRLeafSL]

I also jumped ship after my 2 year lease on a 2012 SL. Nissan may be the first one to market with a mass produced all electric car, but in my opinion fell short on alot of things. In my opinion they rushed it out to be first, instead should have taken more time to bring a better product to market. There are a few things that the Gen 2 would Have to have in order for me to even consider another Nissan EV. They are:

* Active TMS on the battery. Biggest mistake Nissan could have ever made in HISTORY is not controlling the temperature of the battery not only in hot climates, but in cold ones as well. I will not under any circumstance own another EV EVER that does not control battery temp by liquid. I just won't do it even if I lived in a place that doesn't experience winters.

* My next EV will have to get at least 200 miles of range traveling 70 miles per hour and having climate control on. Anything less then this is ABSOLUTELY not acceptable. EV's should have capabilities of city to city travel, not just in town use only. Way to expensive for that. I'm also shocked that Nissan has done pretty much nothing since 2011 to improve range. It's 2015 Nissan, wake up and do something already. Yes I know they added a heat pump to the 2013 model which is pretty much useless at anything under 32 degrees which is warm for winter where I live. I think the "lizzard battery" is a marketing joke. Still needs TMS.

* This one is not as crucial as the two above, but I also think a 6.6K charger or 6.0K depending on if we are talking about input or output capacity is still too small. They need to get it up more around 10K +. That's what my next EV needs to get me back in one. Otherwise I'm happy going to gas stations and doing oil changes. Don't miss my 2012 at all.

 

[desiv]

There are a few things that the Gen 2 would Have to have in order for me to even consider another Nissan EV. .

Someone else already makes that car. (and no one else is likely to make one that matches those specs for years..)
Enjoy your Tesla.. ;-)

desiv

 

[CRLeafSL]

There are a few things that the Gen 2 would Have to have in order for me to even consider another Nissan EV. .

Someone else already makes that car. (and no one else is likely to make one that matches those specs for years..)
Enjoy your Tesla.. ;-)

desiv

Yeah in my dreams. Tesla is just too expensive. I won't be looking at Tesla till they bring out the Model 3 and then it will still probably have to be a basic no option car for me to afford one. Until they can get these electric cars that are actually useable unlike the Leaf down to a realistic dollar amount, I will not be in one.

 

[desiv]

Until they can get these electric cars that are actually useable unlike the Leaf down to a realistic dollar amount, I will not be in one.

You mean unlike every other model out there, not just the Leaf.

Your issue isn't with Nissan or the Leaf specifically.
It's that there is no product that matches your needs at your price range.

There are generally 2 ways to get early adopters in to stimulate the market and begin to create the numbers and solutions that will bring prices down.
1: Release something that meets all the needs but at a high price. This is the Tesla end of the Early Adopter curve.
2: Release a product more people can afford, but without all the features. This is what everyone else who is really trying is doing. ;-)

There is risk on both sides.
On the high end, by the time you manage to bring your prices down (Model 3 for Tesla), will you still have the edge AND prices to compete?
On the low end, you risk alienating customers while you grow your solutions and prices drop.

The 3rd option for manufacturers is to wait until the 1 and 2 guys finally get a large enough base (Nissans) and good enough solution (Tesla's) AND the prices are good. Then you just jump in to the market too... You don't have the issue with people thinking you are only a high end (not for the masses) company and you don't have the issue of people remembering your weaknesses by releasing a car that isn't what people really needed.
This is what most everyone else is doing, and historically this works fairly well.

The risk for option 3 is that options 1 and 2 have a head start.

I like to give preference to the guys who worked before there was a proper solution at market prices, because they helped it get there..

So I will be watching Nissan and Tesla when the next gen comes out.
If they are close enough to the other guys, great.

The tricky one for me is GM/Chevy..
The Bolt (or whatever they eventually name it) should be interesting, but I still can't get the EV1 thing out of my brain. Not the fact that they didn't continue. That was their call, and the market probably wasn't ready for the price it would have actually cost.. But the "destroying" of the EV1s. That just leaves a bad taste in my mouth that is still there...

How bad a taste? Depends on how the Bolt compares when it's released tho... ;-)

My money is still on Nissan releasing a next gen Leaf with enough range for me at the lowest price of the competitors. I personally don't need a true 200 mile range at 75MPH with the heat on in the winter. But I do want a 200 mile range that is at least 130 with heat on at 60MPH with heat after 4 years degradation.
If they can hit that (and I think they can) at a lower price than their competitors, then I'll still be a Nissan guy..
Personally, I don't mind the missteps of Nissan (or Tesla with their delays, etc). I expect that from a new technology...

desiv

 

[GRA]

There are a few things that the Gen 2 would Have to have in order for me to even consider another Nissan EV. .

Someone else already makes that car. (and no one else is likely to make one that matches those specs for years..)
Enjoy your Tesla.. ;-)

desiv

Yeah in my dreams. Tesla is just too expensive. I won't be looking at Tesla till they bring out the Model 3 and then it will still probably have to be a basic no option car for me to afford one. Until they can get these electric cars that are actually useable unlike the Leaf down to a realistic dollar amount, I will not be in one.

Which is why I've been saying that PHEVs like the Volt are the current generation's Tesla Model 3 several years ahead of time. Agree with you on what's needed before I'd move to a pure BEV. Fortunately, I can afford to wait until someone makes a car that fits my needs, be it a BEV or FCV. If I had to buy something in the interim, I could go PHEV.

 

[CRLeafSL]

Yeah that's true. I'm not totally against Nissan Except for their complete ignorance when it comes to cold weather. I still think Nissan made a huge mistake not adding a TMS on the battery to warm it in cold weather. The only improvement they have made in almost 5 years of Leaf's is adding a heat pump. Really? That's all Nissan has? I'm beyond words of disappointment for Nissan to not do better in cold climates. They have no excuses to continue with failed technology. So Range is not the only thing keeping me out of Electric. Cold weather performance would have to be improved about 90% which is only going to happen with a TMS. Chemistry of the battery isn't going to fix cold.

I'm also waiting for GM/Chevy to release the specifics of the Bolt. Not the Volt. I have absolutely no interest in Hybrids. If it's going to have a gas motor on board, I'll just buy an Ice and be done. I do want an all electric car that can perform as well or better than my gas car and until that happens, I'm not interested. However if the Bolt does not put a liquid TMS, then it's out as well. I Will never, ever own another EV from any manufacturer that doesn't heat/cool their battery via Liquid. IT will never happen.