SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

[SanDust]

3. ChadeMo is Japanese (obviously bad)

J1772 was a Japanese standard, wasn't it? I believe that the Europeans weren't wild about it but SAE thought it worked well and went with it. To some extent the new SAE standard addresses European concerns.

Seems to me the talking point I see here is: "I have a car with a CHAdeMO port therefore anyone who supports a different standard, regardless of how much better it might be, is bad because [fill in any reason]." I see a lot complaining, some juvenile name calling, but few actual reasons why CHAdeMO is superior. The only reason I've seen advanced is line noise and that's been refuted.

In truth the SAE standard won't change how fast DC chargers are (or aren't) rolled out. Given the current grid and regulatory system, which aren't going to change anytime soon, the limiting factors for DC charging are (1) the small size of the battery packs and (2) the lack of vehicles on the road. With respect to the former, with the size pack of the pack in the Leaf even DC charging every mile wouldn't enable long distance travel. Very few people are going to want to drive for less than an hour and spend half an hour charging. With respect to the latter, to get utilization rates up as to cover even short term variable costs you'd need something like 30,000 cars in San Diego not 30,000 cars worldwide. The utilization rates for the installed DC chargers is probably embarrassingly low. (And note as the packs get larger utilization rates may go down not up). Getting power to DC chargers and demand charges are a big deal. Supporting two or even three charging ports is relatively minor.

The goofier part is that it seems a # of (most?) current vehicles w/J1772 wouldn't be able accept the SAE frankenplug (due to lack of space below the connector) unless that lower portion could be separated or unless a charging station provides two connectors: J1772 with and w/o Frankenplug .

Worst case you're still 25% better off than with CHAdeMO. With CHAdeMO you have two plugs on the car and two plugs on the charger. With SAE you have one plug on the car and two on the charger.

 

[TonyWilliams]

3. ChadeMo is Japanese (obviously bad)

J1772 was a Japanese standard, wasn't it?

I'm not sure. It works good, so that naturally lends me to believe it didn't come out of Detroit. (EDIT: Yes, it was Japanese, by Yazaki, the same company that makes the really bad ChadeMo nozzle on virtually every DC charger built so far !!! )

"I have a car with a CHAdeMO port therefore anyone who supports a different standard, regardless of how much better it might be, is bad because [fill in any reason].

That's not my position, but certainly may be for many others. Another strike against the Frankenplug. I don't believe it's better, but you seem to think it is.

but few actual reasons why CHAdeMO is superior. The only reason I've seen advanced is line noise and that's been refuted.

I don't believe SAE or ChadeMo are superior, but this new proposal is purposely not compatible with ChadeMo when it could be. Plus, many have questions about the durability of sending signals over the power conductors of the SAE Frankenplug. If both had shown up today, with none deployed and no cars that accept them (like is GM's case), I may selected SAE. There's no advantage or disadvantage to me, the end user, with either plug.

The Betamax / VHS war wasn't won by the superior technology.

In truth the SAE standard won't change how fast DC chargers are (or aren't) rolled out.

Our good friends at Government Motors would beg to differ with you. They are actively working to delay or eliminate ChadeMo in favor of their Nissan stopper Frankenplug.

Supporting two or even three charging ports is relatively minor.

Again, not according to GM. They are telling the state of California that there should only be one standard, and that's not ChadeMo. They want the state to postpone the NRG agreement and provide only SAE Frankenplugs.

 

[Nubo]

...Seems to me the talking point I see here is: "I have a car with a CHAdeMO port therefore anyone who supports a different standard, regardless of how much better it might be, is bad because [fill in any reason]." I see a lot complaining, some juvenile name calling, but few actual reasons why CHAdeMO is superior. ...

To me that's backwards. CHAdeMO was already developed, and out in the word for years, powering real cars with real chargers. So it seems odd that SAE would feel the need to sit in their ivory towers for all that time to devise a NEW standard when a perfectly reasonable one was already in place in growing numbers. It seems to fly counter to their own assertion about a fractured market. Turn your question around -- what are the actual reasons why CHAdeMO is inferior -- inferior enough to justify poisoning an already-established standard?

 

[DANandNAN]

I guess numbers matter to you when you're supporting GM's Frankenplug. Ok, they got nine suckers. ChadeMo has over 170 members, and 193 supporting members.

http://chademo.com/pdf/memberlist.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Does this mean Peugeot, Citroen and Volvo get kicked out of GM's club (should they ever want to join)? Or just out of Europe?

Oh, those 207 ChadeMo chargers in Europe must not exist. SAE Frankenplug chargers anywhere in the world; ZERO. Chademo: about 1400. Of that total, about 30 in the USA. SAE Frankenplug in USA: zero.

GM Frankenplug cars on the road; zero. Chademo 30,000.

That list is a silly. Honestly, you have to admit that almost all of those company's don't matter in this battle. I see company's that I'm guessing will pull their alignment to avoid the fight and work with their allies. What's really funny is I see company's that aren't even in the car business on the list. Who cares what they think? When it comes to standards, I think you have to count the major players, not a list of companies that probably don't even know what they're supporting and probably don't care one way or another. Really, why would they? Unless they have a REAL reason for needing CHAdeMO they're going to jump ship.

As we all know my Volt doesn't have a DC port, and I plan on buying a Leaf with the CHAdeMO so if anything I should be pushing for the CHAdeMO. But, I really think it's going to fail. You can't have what's effectively all the bigs of the vehicle manufacturing game on one side and Nissan on the other. I know, Nissan's not alone - yet. When push comes to shove Peugeot, Citroen and Volvo will also switch because they'll see the writing on the wall. Which is what Renault did to their PARTNER, Nissan. What will Peugeot, Citroen and Volvo tell their customers? "Don't look at what the major manufacturers are doing? We're going to win because the little guys always come in first!" No, they're going to switch because they don't want to loose sales to competitors with the SAE Combo that everyone else is endorsing. And, those 1,400 stations? They'll switch too - obviously not right away, but if you're an EVSE owner are you going to limit yourself to a small group of cars or go with the biggest group? The numbers still work well for CHAdeMO stations so they'll support it for a while longer but eventually they'll have to switch.

And, switching is what Nissan is going to do too. They won't have a choice and it's going to be "sorry, tough luck" for the Leaf owners unfortunately. It really sucks for those owners because the reasoning behind the SAE Combo can be considered suspect, but it is what it is. True there are 10k Leaf's in the U.S. but Nissan's already made their money off them and won't show camaraderie with them for much longer. You can't swim against a tide this large for long. How many potential customers has Nissan already lost with their stance against the QC standard everyone else will be using?

 

[TonyWilliams]

That list is a silly. Honestly, you have to admit that almost all of those company's don't matter in this battle.

Those companies paid $10k each to be "on the list". Hardly silly, and I suspect if GM had a list of members numbering in the hundreds, who paid real money, you'd have a different view of how silly it is.

I plan on buying a Leaf with the CHAdeMO so if anything I should be pushing for the CHAdeMO. But, I really think it's going to fail. You can't have what's effectively all the bigs of the vehicle manufacturing game on one side and Nissan on the other. I know, Nissan's not alone - yet.

We don't know where Toyota is, and I think they could go either way. That would be a big blow to ChadeMo if Toyota went with the Frankenplug. And vice versa. To me, it's certainly too early to predict failure of either standard. SAE isn't starting out well, but it's obvious to me that GM would fail before they would convert. That's because they really don't have skin in the game, they could just blame it on somebody else, and if things really don't work well, there always paying off politicians to make rules to compensate for their shortcomings.

When push comes to shove Peugeot, Citroen and Volvo will also switch because they'll see the writing on the wall. Which is what Renault did to their PARTNER, Nissan.

I would love to see how Carlos reconciles that move. They haven't openly supportted SAE, and seem to be whispering support. So, I don't know on that. The 43kW AC charger was another surprise.

And, switching is what Nissan is going to do too. They won't have a choice and it's going to be "sorry, tough luck" for the Leaf owners unfortunately. It really sucks for those owners because the reasoning behind the SAE Combo can be considered suspect, but it is what it is.

Well, any car manufacturer will orphan existing customers. I suspect Nissan can offer both, or either, easier than GM / BMW (the only two real players making noise for Frankenplug, and only BMW to offer an volume of cars).

 

[smkettner]

If CA can push so hard with hydrogen surely CA can add the SAE plugs as soon as some vehicles actually hit the road.
Did GM mention what car exactly would have the SAE connector? I must have missed it :roll:

 

[scottf200]

If CA can push so hard with hydrogen surely CA can add the SAE plugs as soon as some vehicles actually hit the road.
Did GM mention what car exactly would have the SAE connector? I must have missed it :roll:

Here: http://insideevs.com/spark-ev-first-new-ev-to-adopt-new-fast-charging-standard-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And I showed a blow up of the plug when they first announced the Spark EV and showed a picture of the car a few months back (Oct 12, 2011).
My thread post: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=140716#p140716" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Herm]

That picture looks like a standard j1772 can be plugged into a SAE fast charge socket.

 

[Randy]

The lower cover is hiding the fast charge portion. The upper J1772-looking connector is just that and can be used for L1/L2 charging...

 

[TonyWilliams]

http://insideevs.com/spark-ev-first-new-ev-to-adopt-new-fast-charging-standard-2/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I liked this comment from the above linked article:

LewG
May 4, 2012 at 1:09 pm

Well, it looks as though GM is at it again! In the late 90s and early 2000s, GM designed and built their induction paddle charging for their EV1 and S-10 EV and would not change it to comform to other charging. Ford used the Avcon direct charging and Toyota used the Yazaki direct charging(J1772). Toyota caved and starting to use the large induction paddle and then the small induction paddle as GM changed it. J1772 is the current world wide standard 220v charging. GM is just going to shoot themselves in the foot again!!

 

[DANandNAN]

http://insideevs.com/spark-ev-first-new-ev-to-adopt-new-fast-charging-standard-2/

I liked this comment from the above linked article:

LewG
May 4, 2012 at 1:09 pm

Well, it looks as though GM is at it again! In the late 90s and early 2000s, GM designed and built their induction paddle charging for their EV1 and S-10 EV and would not change it to comform to other charging. Ford used the Avcon direct charging and Toyota used the Yazaki direct charging(J1772). Toyota caved and starting to use the large induction paddle and then the small induction paddle as GM changed it. J1772 is the current world wide standard 220v charging. GM is just going to shoot themselves in the foot again!!

Doesn't that quote suggest that GM learned from their mistake since they've decided to use the standardized plug? GM isn't going it alone, they've worked with the other big manufacturers and settled on a plug. However, Nissan's now repeating history by supposedly sticking with CHAdeMO. What's that saying about those who don't learn from history being doomed to ...

About the list and the 10K from another post. Who cares? These companies spent 10K and you think that means that they're willing to go down with the ship? They're that committed to CHAdeMO because of 10K? Was that 10K spent because they couldn't use any other technology? They'll be fine with whichever.

It's a loosing battle for CHAdeMO and Nissan - actually, just for their customers. But, the charging stations won't get swapped out for a while so at least that's somewhat good news.

 

[TonyWilliams]

But, the charging stations won't get swapped out for a while so at least that's somewhat good news.

Now, that's some wishful thinking. Folks are INSTALLING ChadeMo daily around the world now. Those chargers won't be getting "swapped out" until they're dead, or they aren't making any money.

 

[DANandNAN]

But, the charging stations won't get swapped out for a while so at least that's somewhat good news.

Now, that's some wishful thinking. Folks are INSTALLING ChadeMo daily around the world now. Those chargers won't be getting "swapped out" until they're dead, or they aren't making any money.

I'll agree with you on the not making money part. It's tough enough to sell now, but with a dwindling number of CHAdeMO users it'll be impossible to sustain.

 

[cwerdna]

I'll agree with you on the not making money part. It's tough enough to sell now, but with a dwindling number of CHAdeMO users it'll be impossible to sustain.

How is it dwindling? All '12 Leaf SLs come w/a CHAdeMO port. It's optional on the Mitsubishi i. Neither car is discontinued or done away w/that port. CHAdeMO stations are being rolled out.

 

[DANandNAN]

I'll agree with you on the not making money part. It's tough enough to sell now, but with a dwindling number of CHAdeMO users it'll be impossible to sustain.

How is it dwindling? All '12 Leaf SLs come w/a CHAdeMO port. It's optional on the Mitsubishi i. Neither car is discontinued or done away w/that port. CHAdeMO stations are being rolled out.

Sorry you missed it; if you go two posts up you can see where I started talking about the end of CHAdeMO as because all the big manufacturers have adopted the SAE Combo standard.

 

[TonyWilliams]

if you go two posts up you can see where I started talking about the end of CHAdeMO as because all the big manufacturers have adopted the SAE Combo standard.

I've gotta give them credit. They (GM and cohorts) knew they had a tough sell, and they've opened up with both barrels with the BS. It appears that their wish is your command !!!! I personally don't believe that on the west coast of the USA, all the SAE cars produced through 2017 will match the ChadeMo ones. The ChadeMo ones are going in now.

So, your premise is just a wishful thought. Again, I'm sure Sony thought the same about the Betamax.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

Oh yeah, all the big manufacturers have adopted the SAE combo standard alright, and exactly zero of them are including it on their cars! Makes them sound like they have actually accomplished something, made wise decisions when in reality they have mostly been sitting on the side lines letting others take the gamble and blaze the trail. Meanwhile the SAE has been dragging it's heels for so long Nissan and anyone actually interested in getting the ball rolling on an infrastructure level had to move forward with the only proven style on the market! If it weren't for Nissan, the SAE would have waited much longer to come up with a competing standard and we'd all be stuck with slow charging for who knows how much longer.

... I started talking about the end of CHAdeMO as because all the big manufacturers have adopted the SAE Combo standard.

 

[walterbays]

Again, not according to GM. They are telling the state of California that there should only be one standard, and that's not ChadeMo. They want the state to postpone the NRG agreement and provide only SAE Frankenplugs.

Do you have evidence of this? If so, this seems like the kind of dirty trick that would warrant every EV driver in the state writing their representatives and newspapers to expose and oppose. And that's even if you believe that SAE is superior, and you believe by the time BMW starts shipping SAE plug cars in volume that charging stations will add SAE plugs alongside existing Chademo plugs, and a year or two later Nissan will switch to SAE, and GM will start shipping Spark in volume, and a year or two later station operators will start replacing Chademo units as they fail with new SAE units, and a year or two later Chademo will be gone.

Because postponing the NRG agreement wouldn't be about a plug standard battle. It would be about delaying the public charging infrastructure, and maintaining a marketing advantage of PHEV's over BEV's. Which I find hard to believe of GM: for every buyer who chooses Volt over Leaf due to poor public infrastructure, ten buyers will choose plug-in Prius over Volt for the same reason.

 

[Randy]

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/gm-and-nissan-trade-punches-over-electric-car-fast-charging" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Only story so far on the recent committee meeting...

 

[TonyWilliams]

Again, not according to GM. They are telling the state of California that there should only be one standard, and that's not ChadeMo. They want the state to postpone the NRG agreement and provide only SAE Frankenplugs.

Do you have evidence of this?

I have nothing other than the report that a gentleman (who was named) representing GM at a state function (for California) actually made those statements. He was boo'd, according to the report.

"The bombshell then landed when he (Shad Balch, Manager, Environment & Energy Policy and Communications. General Motors) said "we need to make sure, especially because we're talking about taxpayer money, that ONLY those standards are installed going forward." Meaning that because the SAE DC Fast Charge standard is the only "standardized" fast charging system, this is the system to endorse. Balch was actually boooo'd at this point,"


A Nissan representative (who I personally have met) was also there, and did respond.

EDIT: a little digging, and I found the actual meeting:

Informational Hearing - Select Committee on Green Jobs, Solar, Wind, and Clean Technologies

Senate Majority Leader Ellen M. Corbett
Electric Vehicle Deployment

Friday, May 18 10:00 am
Mission Valley Regional Occupational Program
5019 Stevenson Boulevard
Fremont, CA