SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

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The 1-or-2 sockets on the car is not the big issue.

The totally different, incompatible control-communications is a pain.

A bigger problen is the possibility that the SAE control scheme might be
too error-prone to work reliably in some electrically "very noisy" environments.

The standard could be designed to fail enough to give EVs a black eye.
 
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/abb-launches-best-selling-electric-vehicle-fast-charger-in-us-market-2012-05-04" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (The Terra 51 services all DC fast-charge capable cars that are currently on the market. At EVS26, ABB will also showcase the first prototype of a Terra 51 that supports the Combo charging standard, adopted by US and European carmakers.)
 
lpickup wrote:

I actually think the combined connector is a pretty elegant solution...

edatoakrun wrote:

To what "problem"?

lpickup wrote:

To needing a vehicle that can accept both AC and DC charging.

This is not a "Problem”. The ability to fast-charge on DC is the essential capability, that will allow BEVs to replace ICEVs as the predominant private vehicle design, in the US, in the near future.

This will produce great benefits not only to American drivers, but also to America’s economy and national security.

Most importantly, it will allow Americans to maintain the advantages than individual vehicles have produced, while greatly reducing the adverse environmental effects that ICEVs impose.

In contrast, if I owned a Toyota, Honda, Ford, or GM (Volt) EV that did not have DC capability, I would have a serious “problem”.

And, IMO, since these manufactures can’t or won’t build a competitive mass-market BEV, they have pursued the entirely predictable self-interested corporate course of business, of trying to delay American DC capable BEV sales, by Nissan and Mitsubishi, by delaying the infrastructure rollout.

In the long run, it will not matter much if either the SAE or DC standard, both, prevail, or if another standard soon supersedes both.

The disingenuous efforts of some auto manufactures to create and to promote this “controversy” however, will both inconvenience DC capable BEV drivers like myself, for whom DC stations today would allow greatly increased BEV use, and will delay the conversion of America’s vehicle fleet from ICEVs to BEVs.

And this will certainly effect my decision, to buy any vehicle, from any one of these manufactures, in the future.
 
The fight over charging standard is over! SAE seems to have won, and we (the Leafers and Volters, etc.) will apparently end up on the betamax/HD DVD side of history with the CHAdeMO and J1772. Starting next year.

http://www.auto123.com/en/news/a-full-charge-in-15-minutes-you-better-believe-it?artid=143186" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yup, yup, yup. Such is the trailblazers' destiny.

port.jpg
 
ILETRIC said:
The fight over charging standard is over!
I'll believe it when I see it. :)

Let's see who else in the top 10 that's not in the list (world auto sales ranking):

Toyota (# 1)
Hyundai (#5)
Honda (# 7)
Peugeot/Citroen (#8)
Suzuki (#9)
Fiat (#10)

Half of them are Japanese..which I suspect will lean towards Chademo. Fiat likely will also lean towards Chademo due to Renault's push in France. Peugeot likely will adopt SAE due to German connection. That leaves Hyundai up in the air.

This means about half of the top 10 will adopt Chademo. This fight looks far from over!
 
ILETRIC said:
The fight over charging standard is over! SAE seems to have won, and we (the Leafers and Volters, etc.) will apparently end up on the betamax/HD DVD side of history with the CHAdeMO and J1772. Starting next year.

http://www.auto123.com/en/news/a-full-charge-in-15-minutes-you-better-believe-it?artid=143186" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yup, yup, yup. Such is the trailblazers' destiny.

port.jpg

Actually, I believe you have posted the photo of the one sure "loser" plug standard , as far as the USA is concerned.

That is a Europe-only plug proposal. Cars with ports for that plug will never be sold in the US, and, since it is proposed by only about half of the Euro manufactures, and for the Euro market only, representing a small fraction of world-wide potential BEV sales, it would seem to be the prime candidate for an early demise, among the competing DC standards.
 
scottf200 said:
Audi, BMW, Chrysler, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen have agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach – called DC Fast Charging with a Combined Charging System – for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States.

Live charging demonstrations will be conducted during the Electric Vehicle Symposium 26 (EVS26) May 6-9.

The combined charging system integrates one-phase AC-charging, fast three-phase AC-charging, DC-charging at home and ultra-fast DC-charging at public stations into one vehicle inlet.
SAE has one of the larger booths at EVS26, booth 1058. I will take pictures at their demo, hopefully including close-ups of the plug and receptacle.
 
tbleakne said:
scottf200 said:
Audi, BMW, Chrysler, Daimler, Ford, General Motors, Porsche and Volkswagen have agreed to support a harmonized single-port fast charging approach – called DC Fast Charging with a Combined Charging System – for use on electric vehicles in Europe and the United States.

Live charging demonstrations will be conducted during the Electric Vehicle Symposium 26 (EVS26) May 6-9.

The combined charging system integrates one-phase AC-charging, fast three-phase AC-charging, DC-charging at home and ultra-fast DC-charging at public stations into one vehicle inlet.
SAE has one of the larger booths at EVS26, booth 1058. I will take pictures at their demo, hopefully including close-ups of the plug and receptacle.



Stick some gum in it, that will teach them:)
 
tbleakne said:
SAE has one of the larger booths at EVS26, booth 1058. I will take pictures at their demo, hopefully including close-ups of the plug and receptacle.

Found it on the interactive site: 40'x40'

http://events.ntpshow.com/evs26/public/booth.aspx?BoothID=192988" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Registered to BMW:
1 BMW Plz
Montvale, NJ 07645
United States
Phone: 800-831-1117
Fax: 201-782-0764
URL http://www.bmwusa.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Profile:
Combined Charging: The universal system for electric vehicles becomes reality.
Audi, BMW, Daimler, Ford, GM, Porsche, and Volkswagen jointly present the Combined Charging System. First products will be delivered in 2013. The combination of AC and DC charging reduces system complexity: 1 vehicle inlet, 1 control logic, 1 communication path, and 1 electric architecture. This minimizes system costs and strengthens robustness.

The technology for charge control supports integration into smart grid.

The display will show vehicles and charge pumps for the Combined Charging System.
 
scottf200 said:
All committed OEMs have vehicles in development which will use the Combined Charging System.

The first vehicles to use this system will reach the market in 2013.
Irrespective of the screaming title - is their money committed to building infrastructure on the ground ? Even with EV project money it is proving to be a difficult challenge ...
 
One way or the other, there is going to be only ONE WINNER in this thing. Worldwide. And we'll know in the next couple of years. The others will fade into obsolence. 8-track anyone?
 
ILETRIC said:
One way or the other, there is going to be only ONE WINNER in this thing. Worldwide.
Without a viable business model the funding will have to come from governments, and you can count on government money being limited to DC chargers that meet a national standard. This means there won't be one worldwide standard. North America and Europe and Australia and probably South America will use SAE. Japan will stay with CAHdeMO. China will have its own standard.
 
SanDust said:
Without a viable business model the funding will have to come from governments

But the money won't be coming from government. We already saw this failure in Ecotality where the private sector front companies just paid lucrative salaries to employees to shine Americans on while doing nothing. The government does not want to be in the public charging business and has never had plans for this. However the government has and will create business incentives. BUT only a fool would believe that general business incentives automatically funnel everyone to the SAE. Real businesses that are actually serious about DC chargers are going to base their business models ENTIRELY on the type and number of charge ports on the road. Nothing else. NRG has already done this as well as every other QC charge provider so far. The irony here is that the ONLY chance the SAE has is if there IS a massive government intervention in the QC infrastructure business and the Koch brothers get to instead dictate that everything will be SAE. Talk about the free market hypocrisy meter getting pegged! AND with only low volume CARB Play SAE cars showing up someday, no mainstream business model can be based on their standard.
 
TRONZ said:
AND with only low volume CARB Play SAE cars showing up someday, no mainstream business model can be based their standard.

Best synopsis so far. Even SAE is saying 2017 for widespread use, with introduction next year.

Even the NRG with the state of California deal doesn't say they have to install SAE units; just make a spot available for one next to a ChaDeMo unit.

It's sad for me to see SAE reduced to hawking this thing like a door to door encyclopedia salesman.
 
TRONZ said:
But the money won't be coming from government.
In this case there won't be any public DC charging so "problem solved". Given the number of Leafs and i-Mievs on the road, the cost of the chargers, the cost of maintaining the chargers, and demand charges, there is no business model that works. You mention Ecotality. Yes Ecotality might not have been effective, but you shouldn't have to be good if you're giving the product away.

Charging is a serious problem. Fast chargers don't seem to be a solution.
 
evGo (via their Facebook page) just informed me that all of their "Freedom Stations" have been designed with space for a second qc charger when another standard is needed.
 
For what it's worth, I posted a few photos from yesterday in the EVS thread. I was particularly interested in the fact that some (hopefully most) future charging stations will support both standards, so at least we won't be made prematurely obsolete.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=5806&p=195603#p195603" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
SanDust said:
there is no business model that works.

Yes Sandust, I am sure all the QC charging companies will be calling you for consult on their business models. Or, here is a crazy thought, maybe they already know alot more about their private business's plans than you do. I, for one, am going for the latter.

SanDust said:
Fast chargers don't seem to be a solution.

Yes, QC does nothing for Volt fans... but feel free to lye down on the road in protest as the NRG trucks roll through.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Would an "adapter" between the two connection types be possible? It would have to be smart to do the protocol conversion.
Cheezmo said:
evGo (via their Facebook page) just informed me that all of their "Freedom Stations" have been designed with space for a second qc charger when another standard is needed.
I mentioned that Bosch said the same thing. Having two standards is not a big deal. There not being a business model for QC is a big deal.

LTLFTcomposite said:
Would an "adapter" between the two connection types be possible? It would have to be smart to do the protocol conversion.
No the signal protocols are different.

TRONZ said:
Yes Sandust, I am sure all the QC charging companies will be calling you for consult on their business models.
If you only knew! :lol:
 
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