SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

[Herm]

As long as the power is correct (400VDC at 125A), an adapter can take care of the control and communication issues. Vintage Leaf owners will not left stranded.

I'm beginning to think we should have gone with an AC fast charging system... usable with 1 or 3 phase.

 

[bryan38401]

I feel sorry for those who will be waiting on sae, here in tennessee its very simple we have an electric code that says eq must be ul listed that means the whole thing and the only ones listed are CHAdeMO.nissan is also in tennessee and will soon start production of batteries and evs here.schneider electric also has many plants here ,there eq will be ul listed and CHAdeMO.I am here in tennessee and my family and businesses will be using nissan and CHAdeMO and I will be installing schneider electric and( nissan chargers when avilable ).schneider is already working on adaption for sae should it EVER IN THE FUTURE become avilable.so my leaf and my e-NV200s,infinite and should I have a midlife crisis in 5 yrs the esflow will take care of that.since im 52 and finally have MY electric car by nissan I think Ill just hang with the winners!! if you dont mind. since I own my own business and I alone (except my wife who also loves her leaf) make the decisions and I refuse to WAIT any longer on evs.nissan won just by selling ME a leaf,I did not have to wait for some other company to see if I was worthy of there product or if I was there target market!!! I am nissans target market as are you, they just want you to enjoy your ride and I shall!! one last tidbit certain people are working on the adapter from CHAdeMO to sae for those of you who dont think it can be done please leave us that CAN do it alone . ps still love my gas sucking chevy 2500hd 4x4 but not as much as my leaf!!!

 

[TomT]

The Renault system does offer significant advantages...

I'm beginning to think we should have gone with an AC fast charging system... usable with 1 or 3 phase.

 

[scottf200]

Because postponing the NRG agreement wouldn't be about a plug standard battle. It would be about delaying the public charging infrastructure, and maintaining a marketing advantage of PHEV's over BEV's. Which I find hard to believe of GM: for every buyer who chooses Volt over Leaf due to poor public infrastructure, ten buyers will choose plug-in Prius over Volt for the same reason.

From the article above NRG does not seem to be "concerned" about as it was *already* in the agreement.

Speaking following the meeting, NRG's spokesperson, Terry O'Day, noted that the settlement between NRG and California does require that, as the SAE fast charging standard becomes available, that it be deployed to eVgo Freedom Stations. At least three CHADEMO charging station manufacturers (ABB, Eaton, and Schneider Electric) are planning to support the SAE standard.

 

[edatoakrun]

...Because postponing the NRG agreement wouldn't be about a plug standard battle. It would be about delaying the public charging infrastructure, and maintaining a marketing advantage of PHEV's over BEV's. Which I find hard to believe of GM: for every buyer who chooses Volt over Leaf due to poor public infrastructure, ten buyers will choose plug-in Prius over Volt for the same reason.

The real problem is we are stuck with a company, GM, that is the proverbial "corporate welfare queen" with the lobbyists to keep feeding its corporate interests, by delaying BEV sales, by blocking the essential fast charging infrastructure.

The entire American EV effort has largely been distorted to ameliorate the inherent inferiority of PHEVs vs BEVs.

Why does the Volt, 10.5 kWh of available battery capacity, receive the same federal tax credit as those BEVs with more than twice that capacity and electric range?

Why have uncounted million of dollars been wasted on public slow L2, a charging option so inefficient and expensive, you have to give the service away (not just the electricity, but the huge cost of the infrequently used L2 chargers and empty parking places) to get even the very short electric range PHEVs to use it?

Eventually, the economic superiority of BEV DC + paid fast public charging will prevail over the inherently inferior PHEV + "free" public opportunity parking charging model.

But the disingenuous effort to create a DC "standard controversy" by auto manufactures that do not build BEVs in more than token numbers, to hamper those manufactures that do, should be seen for what it is.

And, IMO, the posts by the concern trolls on this and other forums in support of blocking the BEV DC infrastructure, should receive the respect they deserve-none.

 

[walterbays]

The entire American EV effort has largely been distorted to ameliorate the inherent inferiority of PHEVs vs BEVs.

Why does the Volt, 10.5 kWh of available battery capacity, receive the same federal tax credit as those BEVs with more than twice that capacity and electric range?

I disagree that PHEVs are inherently inferior. I think a Volt deserves the same tax credit and the same access to public charging because it may avoid burning as much oil as a Leaf - with a second infrequently used ICE in the garage for longer trips.

Eventually, the economic superiority of BEV DC + paid fast public charging will prevail over the inherently inferior PHEV + "free" public opportunity parking charging model.

I agree with you here, but think that "eventually" will be many years. Today a BEV is superior in most urban and suburban two car households, and in many urban single car households in the few cities with well developed charging infrastructure. It will take years for that infrastructure to be extended so exurban single car households could consider a BEV. At the fringes of the developed infrastructure will be the PHEV's helping to spread the infrastructure the next 50 miles out. And in the mean time a PHEV makes a perfect second car to a BEV for those longer trips, rather than a conventional ICE.

But the disingenuous effort to create a DC "standard controversy" by auto manufactures that do not build BEVs in more than token numbers, to hamper those manufactures that do, should be seen for what it is.

YES! As Scottf noted, GM already has everything they need in the NRG settlement: the charging stations will be built to accommodate SAE plugs when (if) vehicles appear. But reportedly their stance is not to ensure access to SAE, but to deny access to Chademo.

 

[DANandNAN]

Oh yeah, all the big manufacturers have adopted the SAE combo standard alright, and exactly zero of them are including it on their cars!

There's none at the moment, but there's only 300 new Leafs / month and 10k in the States so it's not like a crushing advantage. It's a minor road bump that will be surpased quickly as the 8 major CAR & TRUCK manufacturers start coming to market.

Everyone wants to blame GM. They're not alone though, there are 7 other major manufacturers on board. Blame the situation on a single corporation if you want, but think about it - it should be Nissan. Nissan has done great things with EV, and they've been at it a long time. But, they're not an industry powerhouse and can't decide what the industry standard will be on their own.

Their solution is that it'll be like gas stations where you have 89, 91, & 93 grade gasoline, only now it'll be with different plugs? Great solution :lol: The only way that's going to happen is IF there are manufacturers sticking with CHAdeMO and, as I said earlier, Peugeot, Citroen and Volvo will jump off the CHAdeMO Titanic before it hits that iceberg. Nissan will too.

 

[edatoakrun]

...I think a Volt deserves the same tax credit and the same access to public charging because it may avoid burning as much oil as a Leaf...

For some drivers, with short urban commutes and also frequent long trips, a Prius or other small-battery PHEV would save more gas than a Volt.

There is no such thing as a entirely "fair" subsidy.

But if if immediate reduction in gas consumption (and not getting rid of ICEs entirely) were the goal, the logical subsidy would be highest for the first mile of electric range, and declining as the range increases. So the Volt, which has less than 50% of the electric range of the LEAF, should get more than 50% of the public subsidy, the LEAF does.

But the present over 100% increase in subsidy per mile of range received by the Volt over the LEAF, cannot be justified, IMO

The greater PHEV subsidy, is shown by those PHEV owners who proudly proclaim they infrequently use gas.

This behavior is dependent of the subsidized free charging infrastructure. How many PHEV drivers would would use public L2, if it were priced at the actual cost of providing the service, which would likely be higher than for gasoline per mile, in most circumstances?

Of course, we don't know what public L2 or public DC will eventually cost, since it is not provided for profit anywhere, yet.

(edit: Except where the unreliable "free" J1772s are not present-see the thread below).

But I have little doubt that the DC model will work, since even very high kWh charges will be supported at least occasionally, by most BEV drivers.

I would have paid over $1 a kWh for DC last Monday night in Vacaville, for instance, as it would have gotten me home a day earlier, and saved me from spending a miserable night in cowtown...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3319" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

edatoakrun, well stated on all accounts!!!

...Because postponing the NRG agreement wouldn't be about a plug standard battle. It would be about delaying the public charging infrastructure, and maintaining a marketing advantage of PHEV's over BEV's. Which I find hard to believe of GM: for every buyer who chooses Volt over Leaf due to poor public infrastructure, ten buyers will choose plug-in Prius over Volt for the same reason.

The real problem is we are stuck with a company, GM, that is the proverbial "corporate welfare queen" with the lobbyists to keep feeding its corporate interests, by delaying BEV sales, by blocking the essential fast charging infrastructure.

The entire American EV effort has largely been distorted to ameliorate the inherent inferiority of PHEVs vs BEVs.

Why does the Volt, 10.5 kWh of available battery capacity, receive the same federal tax credit as those BEVs with more than twice that capacity and electric range?

Why have uncounted million of dollars been wasted on public slow L2, a charging option so inefficient and expensive, you have to give the service away (not just the electricity, but the huge cost of the infrequently used L2 chargers and empty parking places) to get even the very short electric range PHEVs to use it?

Eventually, the economic superiority of BEV DC + paid fast public charging will prevail over the inherently inferior PHEV + "free" public opportunity parking charging model.

But the disingenuous effort to create a DC "standard controversy" by auto manufactures that do not build BEVs in more than token numbers, to hamper those manufactures that do, should be seen for what it is.

And, IMO, the posts by the concern trolls on this and other forums in support of blocking the BEV DC infrastructure, should receive the respect they deserve-none.

 

[DANandNAN]

But if if immediate reduction in gas consumption (and not getting rid of ICEs entirely) were the goal, the logical subsidy would be highest for the first mile of electric range, and declining as the range increases. So the Volt, which has less than 50% of the electric range of the LEAF, should get more than 50% of the public subsidy, the LEAF does.

But the present over 100% increase in subsidy per mile of range received by the Volt over the LEAF, cannot be justified, IMO

The greater PHEV subsidy, is shown by those PHEV owners who proudly proclaim they infrequently use gas.

This behavior is dependent of the subsidized free charging infrastructure. How many PHEV drivers would would use public L2, if it were priced at the actual cost of providing the service, which would likely be higher than for gasoline per mile, in most circumstances?

Of course, we don't know what public L2 or public DC will eventually cost, since it is not provided for profit anywhere, yet.

But I have little doubt that the DC model will work, since even very high kWh charges will be supported at least occasionally, by most BEV drivers.

I would have paid over $1 a kWh last Monday night in Vacaville, for instance, as it would have gotten me home a day earlier, and saved me from spending a miserable night in cowtown...

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3319" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Leaf's range isn't twice as good, it's 65 miles with a comfort zone. When you're driving an ICE you CAN count every single mile as your range because refueling is available. In a Leaf, you're on a tow truck if you use all the juice so your 100% is a junk comparison.

Since you think Volt owners won't pay for L2 at it's actual cost (which I completely disagree with) I'll ask you how many Leaf owners will pay for DC at it's actual cost. Tony Williams started a thread and poll on it, and everyone would rather take their ICE instead of paying the actual costs of DC to make it profitable. Your example of being stranded in cowtown is when folks were finally willing to pay enough to make it profitable, but the sustainability isn't there with so few users. Will it be better once their are more users? Absolutely, as the manufacturers start installing the SAE Combo there will be more users and eventually, hopefully, it would be sustainable.

 

[dgpcolorado]

The Leaf's range isn't twice as good, it's 65 miles with a comfort zone.

Rubbish. For me, and many others here, the LEAF's range is MORE than twice that of the Volt on electricity only. Your 65 mile estimate is only valid for high speed freeway driving or very cold—subzero—weather. I do 75 miles in the dead of winter with 2500 feet of elevation change with a reserve of at least ten miles. That's well within my comfort zone.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

...The Leaf's range isn't twice as good, it's 65 miles with a comfort zone. When you're driving an ICE you CAN count every single mile as your range because refueling is available. In a Leaf, you're on a tow truck if you use all the juice so your 100% is a junk comparison.
...

I think you should stick to making such statements about the car you actually own and have first hand experience with. you are just off in many ways and it's getting tiring to argue.

 

[scottf200]

Aside: I think EVNOW made an interesting observation/point a couple months (mid-March) back on gm-volt.com

KEY POINT is that this is with mild to warm temps.

evnow quote:
http://gm-volt.com/forum/showthread.php?12300-Came-oh-so-close-to-50-miles-on-10.4-kWh&p=128692#post128692" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I never realized Volt has almost exactly 1/2 the useable capacity of Leaf (about 21 kWh). So, hitting 50 miles in Volt is like hitting 100 miles in Leaf or about 4.8 miles/kWh. I do that regularly in warmer months - but not so much now.

Personally I regularly do 43-45 in the spring/summer/fall in my Volt. My "GOM" said 44 this morning when I started it.

 

[smkettner]

I still don't see what the fight is about.

For other vehicles we have Regular, Mid-grade, Super, ULS Diesel, E15, E85.... and the list goes on. If you include all the formulas it would make your head spin.

Just install the CHAdeMO already and if there is ever one car with SAE plug put one in for him also.

Further CA (and others) should require a minimum number of vehicles produced and sold before considering any additional equipment. This might exclude Tesa for some time. Nissan and Misubishi are producing the cars that need support. SAE needs no support as there is nothing to support. Nissan & Mitsubishi are selling into the wind.... let GM do the same to get SAE established.

 

[GaslessInSeattle]

here's just how far out of the bag the cat is on this one, this map of projected QC stations is getting filled in a bit more every day, all with CHAdeMO:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=213359050108102131982.0004b4a3f0c64a8fa421a

the SAE got way behind the 8 ball on this one, so much so that everyone from local government all the way up to the feds and a major US Military contractor moved forward with what was available.

 

[Stoaty]

here's just how far out of the bag the cat is on this one, this map of projected QC stations is getting filled in a bit more every day, all with CHAdeMO:

Interesting, but "projected" is not the same as "available to charge now".

 

[Nubo]

here's just how far out of the bag the cat is on this one, this map of projected QC stations is getting filled in a bit more every day, all with CHAdeMO:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=213359050108102131982.0004b4a3f0c64a8fa421a

the SAE got way behind the 8 ball on this one, so much so that everyone from local government all the way up to the feds and a major US Military contractor moved forward with what was available.

Unfortunately something very sad happens at the CA border. And with most things automotive: as CA goes, so goes the nation.

 

[DANandNAN]

The Leaf's range isn't twice as good, it's 65 miles with a comfort zone.

Rubbish. For me, and many others here, the LEAF's range is MORE than twice that of the Volt on electricity only. Your 65 mile estimate is only valid for high speed freeway driving or very cold—subzero—weather. I do 75 miles in the dead of winter with 2500 feet of elevation change with a reserve of at least ten miles. That's well within my comfort zone.

Your 85 mile range is based on your driving style, but that doesn't mean it's average or to be expected by everyone anymore than the folks that do 30MPH for 100 miles and have 5 miles of reserve. I'm talking about what I've averaged in a Leaf and what I've read here from owners. BTW, even your 85 isn't more than twice what we get - and we drive on a freeway at highway speeds using the AC.

 

[DANandNAN]

here's just how far out of the bag the cat is on this one, this map of projected QC stations is getting filled in a bit more every day, all with CHAdeMO:
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF&msa=0&msid=213359050108102131982.0004b4a3f0c64a8fa421a

the SAE got way behind the 8 ball on this one, so much so that everyone from local government all the way up to the feds and a major US Military contractor moved forward with what was available.

You folks and your predictions. First it's 30k Leafs out there, which is higher than some guy named Andy Palmer (he said he works at Nissan) said. Then there's going to be 20K sold this year, meanwhile the first quarter is over and they're 10% of the way there with 2,100 YTD. Then there's the statement that there's going to be 100K on the road before any cars using the standard hit the road - what's that based on? And, now you're presenting a map FILLED with yellow flags - only the flags are projected installs, not actual installs :roll: What were you saying about folks sticking with things they actually know?

I think you should stick to making such statements about the car you actually own and have first hand experience with. you are just off in many ways and it's getting tiring to argue.

Who's arguing? I'm simply telling you that Nissan is trying to push a rope with CHAdeMO. FWIW, we've driven the Leaf enough times to know what our range will be, and we can back that estimate up with folks who have posted their actual driving style and range on this forum. I know of what I speak.

It seems Nissan jumped the gun on this one. But, I guess time will tell.

 

[DANandNAN]

I still don't see what the fight is about.

For other vehicles we have Regular, Mid-grade, Super, ULS Diesel, E15, E85.... and the list goes on. If you include all the formulas it would make your head spin.

Just install the CHAdeMO already and if there is ever one car with SAE plug put one in for him also.

Further CA (and others) should require a minimum number of vehicles produced and sold before considering any additional equipment. This might exclude Tesa for some time. Nissan and Misubishi are producing the cars that need support. SAE needs no support as there is nothing to support. Nissan & Mitsubishi are selling into the wind.... let GM do the same to get SAE established.

We don't want more government waste, do we?

I think California and the U.S. government should stop wasting money on DC stations until everyone joins that standard (or tells their customers that they're buying a car that doesn't have the standard).

I also predict that Tesla will offer a recall and install the standard plug. Their station plan is going to be impossible to implement fully. And, as mad as all the Leaf owners are I'm guessing they'll be even louder.