SAE Planning vote to formally deny CHAdeMO in US

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
smkettner said:
I still don't see what the fight is about.

For other vehicles we have Regular, Mid-grade, Super, ULS Diesel, E15, E85.... and the list goes on. If you include all the formulas it would make your head spin.

Just install the CHAdeMO already and if there is ever one car with SAE plug put one in for him also.
I've no issue with installing the SAE plugs if and when cars needing it are sold in volume. The fight is about GM trying to prevent installation of the Chademo plugs which can be used by nearly all QC capable cars on the road today (-Tesla) and for the forseeable (product announced) future.

It's as though VW planned to introduce new clean diesel models in 2017 and, not content with a requirement that gas stations must sell diesel, they lobbied for a ban on gas stations selling regular.
 
The SAE standard is great, bring it on. In five years they could be installing some UL SAE DC Charge stations. Maybe even a hair sooner. In the meantime, let's build the DC charging infrastructure and install double chorded CHAdeMO DC chargers. If the SAE standard takes hold then it will pass CHAdeMo in 6 or 7 years. We will be 100 steps ahead in the upgrade process as the expensive power and charging infrastructure will be already installed and can easily be upgraded to whatever standard. Maybe the Tesla standard will win and we'll change to match them or they will have their own network, like apple and their iPad/iPod only charching cable.

Lot's of what if's and maybes in the future. Today, in the present where we are right now, we have tens of thousands of people who can use CHAdeMo DC to power their electric transportation future.

Bring on the CHAdeMO DC charging infrastructure California. We're ready.
 
I have been concerned about this SAE plug ever since I first heard about it at an IEEE conference last year. I even briefly considered canceling my IEEE membership when I found out IEEE was supporting it. My concern is more toward safety than about my QC port becoming obsolete. The CHAdeMO is a heavy duty connector system worthy of the energy levels involved; the SAE connector is not. The power pins/sleeves in the SAE connector are smaller than those in the CHAdeMO. The CHAdeMO has a secure latch sized for the connector. The SAE connector has only the latch for the J1772 part of the plug (on the opposite side of the connector from the power contacts). In addition to that, the SAE standard will use power line carrier for the communication between the car and the charger. What happens when high frequency noise from the rectifiers and switching power supplies in the charger and/or the car disrupt the communication signals?

Gerry
 
China has settled on Mennekes + a mode that puts DC power on existing AC pins, uses a CAN based protocol

Europe 'SAE' group + Renault seems to be settling on Mennekes + (for SAE 2 extra DC pins)

Japan has settled on CHAdeMO (DC) + vanilla SAE J-1772

USA was settling on CHAdeMO (DC) + vanilla SAE J-1772 but
GM/Ford/BMW/VW & Mercedes want to add a new unique variant of SAE J-1772 + 2 extra DC pins which effectively is just for USA and pretend that it is the new global standard! and lobby others not to build out their other solutions.

SAE J-1772 + 2 DC pins is a distraction conceived by a 'coalition of the unwilling' to impede the rollout of DC fast charging specifically in the USA and so to hinder the willing BEV manufacturers (Nissan / Mitsubishi / Tesla)

this is not VHS vs BETA, as both those camps were in it to win it.
SAE J-1772 + 2 DC pins is not in it to win, but to slow down CHAdeMO (Nissan etc.)
CHAdeMO is in it to win, unlike its unwilling entrant competitor.
 
EVDrive said:
Today, in the present where we are right now, we have tens of thousands of people who can use CHAdeMo DC to power their electric transportation future.

Bring on the CHAdeMO DC charging infrastructure California. We're ready.
WHAT??? Tens of thousands? Oh, wait, you said tens of thousands of PEOPLE, not cars. I guess if every Leaf in California had 5 people crammed inside you'd get tens of thousands of people.

Tens of thousands of cars? Nope. Not even close. But, yeah, bring it on California - your broke already, why not invest in a tech that only one manufacturer is actually campaigning for.
 
ydnas7 said:
SAE J-1772 + 2 DC pins is a distraction conceived by a 'coalition of the unwilling' to impede the rollout of DC fast charging specifically in the USA and so to hinder the willing BEV manufacturers (Nissan / Mitsubishi / Tesla)
Why are you including Tesla in a CHAdeMO discussion?

Why has Nissan created an issue that's going to hinder EV?
 
ydnas7 said:
China has settled on Mennekes + a mode that puts DC power on existing AC pins, uses a CAN based protocol

Europe 'SAE' group + Renault seems to be settling on Mennekes + (for SAE 2 extra DC pins)

Japan has settled on CHAdeMO (DC) + vanilla SAE J-1772

USA was settling on CHAdeMO (DC) + vanilla SAE J-1772 but
GM/Ford/BMW/VW & Mercedes want to add a new unique variant of SAE J-1772 + 2 extra DC pins which effectively is just for USA and pretend that it is the new global standard! and lobby others not to build out their other solutions.

SAE J-1772 + 2 DC pins is a distraction conceived by a 'coalition of the unwilling' to impede the rollout of DC fast charging specifically in the USA and so to hinder the willing BEV manufacturers (Nissan / Mitsubishi / Tesla)

this is not VHS vs BETA, as both those camps were in it to win it.
SAE J-1772 + 2 DC pins is not in it to win, but to slow down CHAdeMO (Nissan etc.)
CHAdeMO is in it to win, unlike its unwilling entrant competitor.

VERY GOOD SUMMARY !!!!!
 
ydnas7 said:
China has settled on Mennekes + a mode that puts DC power on existing AC pins, uses a CAN based protocol
So the Chinese engineers figured this out but SAE-GM decide to invent a plug just to thwart CHAdeMO.

Existing J-1772 at 80 amps and 400vdc (or 480vac) would be my preferred plug
 
DANandNAN said:
ydnas7 said:
SAE J-1772 + 2 DC pins is a distraction conceived by a 'coalition of the unwilling' to impede the rollout of DC fast charging specifically in the USA and so to hinder the willing BEV manufacturers (Nissan / Mitsubishi / Tesla)
Why are you including Tesla in a CHAdeMO discussion?

Why has Nissan created an issue that's going to hinder EV?


your anti ChaDeMo rant is getting tiresome. What issue has Nissan created? They joined a DCQC group and installed the hardware on their car. They have hundreds of cars that can use hundreds of charge stations in Japan. They sent this same car to the US with the same DCQC hardware. Just as its getting deployed a US group decides to announce their competing product and get everyone to stop installing the existing technology. The press releases are just creating FUD to stop the installation of the existing hardware. Heck I bet you can get 7 companies to say they want EEStor batteries in their car and that its release is eminent, so stop building cars with LiFePO4.

I say let everyone compete on an equal playing field. The expensive power hardware is the same on all of them. To switch from one to another in the future if one tech wins, it is a simple matter of changing the cable, connector and the communication circuit board.
 
palmermd said:
DANandNAN said:
ydnas7 said:
SAE J-1772 + 2 DC pins is a distraction conceived by a 'coalition of the unwilling' to impede the rollout of DC fast charging specifically in the USA and so to hinder the willing BEV manufacturers (Nissan / Mitsubishi / Tesla)
Why are you including Tesla in a CHAdeMO discussion?

Why has Nissan created an issue that's going to hinder EV?


your anti ChaDeMo rant is getting tiresome. What issue has Nissan created? They joined a DCQC group and installed the hardware on their car. They have hundreds of cars that can use hundreds of charge stations in Japan. They sent this same car to the US with the same DCQC hardware. Just as its getting deployed a US group decides to announce their competing product and get everyone to stop installing the existing technology. The press releases are just creating FUD to stop the installation of the existing hardware. Heck I bet you can get 7 companies to say they want EEStor batteries in their car and that its release is eminent, so stop building cars with LiFePO4.

I say let everyone compete on an equal playing field. The expensive power hardware is the same on all of them. To switch from one to another in the future if one tech wins, it is a simple matter of changing the cable, connector and the communication circuit board.


+1.
 
palmermd said:
your anti ChaDeMo rant is getting tiresome. What issue has Nissan created? They joined a DCQC group and installed the hardware on their car. They have hundreds of cars that can use hundreds of charge stations in Japan. They sent this same car to the US with the same DCQC hardware. Just as its getting deployed a US group decides to announce their competing product and get everyone to stop installing the existing technology. The press releases are just creating FUD to stop the installation of the existing hardware. Heck I bet you can get 7 companies to say they want EEStor batteries in their car and that its release is eminent, so stop building cars with LiFePO4.

I say let everyone compete on an equal playing field. The expensive power hardware is the same on all of them. To switch from one to another in the future if one tech wins, it is a simple matter of changing the cable, connector and the communication circuit board.
LOL, if you don't want to read what I write, don't read it.

You're analysis of what Nissan did is right in some areas, and wrong in others. There are hundreds of CHAdeMO stations - in Japan! Nissan added it to their cars and then shipped them to the U.S.A. Now Nissan says "we've set the standard, it's big in Japan and other parts of the world so the U.S. better install our CHAdeMO stations or else." Is that how things work? Maybe for children, but adults get together and talk things through. That's what these vehicle manufacturing giants did - yet folks find fault in that. Somehow the "it works there and we brought it here" argument rings truer for some folks than the group of manufacturers who sat down and decided on a standard.

The biggest issue I have with the CHAdeMO is that it's not fast. 50 minutes is not fast. 30 minutes isn't fast enough either, but it's definitely better (in case you don't know why, the CHAdeMO is 125A v 200A for the SAE). That's a great reason to support the SAE Combo. So is the fact that 8 manufacturers are going to use it, so the infrastructure will grow as more customers join. Think about how impossibly hard it is to sell DC "QC" to Leaf owners on a regular basis at a price that creates a profit for the station. Now think about how much better it will be with 8 times the number of cars - only it won't be better for Nissan owners if they stick with CHAdeMO.

Why on earth do folks think it'll be advantageous for Nissan to stick with CHAdeMO when EVERYONE else is going to be SAE Combo? Because there's a few Leafs out there now, a few of which use DC "QC"? Yeah, let's keep going down that route and see where it gets the EV community.

If Tesla was making this "install our charger or else arguement" you LYAO, because they're one small company, going up against Nissan. Yet, Nissan's doing the same thing and now it's justified because there may be 10K Leafs (may be less) that have DC ports. And, probably half of those are in areas with DC within range. And, VERY FEW of those owners are willing to support a DC station.

Yeah, my points are tiresome :roll: meanwhile the CHAdeMO argument is stellar :roll: :lol:
 
The timeline is something like this:

Summer to Fall 2012 - SAE votes to approve Combo "Frankenplug"

Fall to Winter 2012 - Some charger manufacturers begin implementation of Combo in existing ChadeMo or dedicated units.

Spring 2013 - Prototyping

Summer - Fall 2013 - Submissions to UL or other laboratories.

Summer 2014 - UL listing

Fall 2014 - first UL approved Combo chargers deployed (best case)

At the same time, there will be hundreds of ChadeMo chargers in the most prominent locations in the USA; western states of Washington and Oregon and California. That's where the bulk of electric vehicles are sold and will be sold.

Also, Nissan / Infiniti will have sold tens of thousands of ChadeMo cars in that area. GM will have sold token amounts of Sparks (just enough to be California CARB compliant) and not all will even have a Combo plug (every LEAF except about 10% of 2011 models have the ChadeMo plug).

BMW, of the 9 manufactures signing on with the Combo plug, will be the only other car that I would expect to even "make a go" against the ChadeMo cars. Because their cars are going to be more expensive than a LEAF or Mitsubishi iMiev, it's likely they won't come close to the sales volume. All the rest are merely token efforts so far (that market in the USA... Renault does not and neither does Peugeot, which is signed on with ChadeMo anyway).

Neither Ford nor Chrysler have announced any plans for any Combo car whatsoever. I doubt a Smart EV will have any fast charge capabilities. Other Daimler efforts (for Mercedes) are currently with Tesla technology. The other Tesla company collaboration is with Toyota, and it does not use any DC charging.

To me, the single biggest swing vote is Toyota. Should they decide to build more EVs than then 2600 required to meet the minimum requirement for the state of California, AND decide to use SAE over ChadeMo, I would say SAE *might* have a chance. Otherwise, it doesn't look good, if Nissan and other Japanese manufacturers hold the course.

By 2020, there will be a next generation standard superseding both anyway!!!
 
DANandNAN said:
There are hundreds of CHAdeMO stations - in Japan! Nissan added it to their cars and then shipped them to the U.S.A. Now Nissan says "we've set the standard, it's big in Japan and other parts of the world so the U.S. better install our CHAdeMO stations or else." Is that how things work?

Yeah, my points are tiresome :roll: meanwhile the CHAdeMO argument is stellar :roll: :lol:

I think many here just perceive you as a stooge. There are over 1000 ChadeMo chargers in Japan, and about 1400 worldwide. The Combo is not even a standard between Europe and USA, but of course, they want you to believe it is. Maybe you do.

Only one company is offering "our way or the highway" and that's GM. I'm not brash enough to suggest outright that they'll lose, but I'm confident that you think they'll win.

The Combo plug paid mouth-piece on the other side of the pond, Ashley, stated that the leader in EV sales worldwide is a niche player and the group with the split design and incompatible even amongst all Combo plugs is the volume leader with zero sales.

Classic modern day reporting much in tune with Faux Noose quality.
 
TonyWilliams said:
TomT said:
Just block him (see the Foe area on here)... I got tired of it a while back and did just that. The silence is blissful.

palmermd said:
your anti ChaDeMo rant is getting tiresome.

Yes, he's now number 4 on my block list.
:cry: Your response to someone saying something that differs with your opinion is block them? That's mature :lol:

The bottom line is still the bottom line, 8 major manufacturers are going with the SAE Combo. Nissan probably has less than 10k cars that can use DC. NONE will pay for it, as your DC station failure shows. Many folks that can afford to use DC charging on a regular basis will be driving expensive luxury cars - there's only one luxury car with the CHAdeMO - the Infinity and it's not here either. Meanwhile there will be cars from BMW, Mercedes, Audi, Cadillac and Chrysler in the luxury market using the SAE Combo and Ford & Chevy as well. The math is simple. You posted it yourself, you said you couldn't sell DC to Leaf owners. So which way will stations and the market go ;)

I'm betting Nissan's already discussing the feasibility of switching.
 
DANandNAN said:
The bottom line is still the bottom line, 8 major manufacturers are going with the SAE Combo.
None of them have produced an EV that uses it. Only two of them produce any plugin vehicle at all that you can buy now, and even those will likely not have the SAE standard plug installed on them for at least four model years if ever. So at absolute best you will have to wait three to four years for a vehicle compliant with a standard that's not even a full and proper standard yet, at worst there may never be a compliant vehicle.

DANandNAN said:
Nissan probably has less than 10k cars that can use DC.
Nissan has more CHAdeMO compliant vehicles on the road than any other manufacturer available in the US has of any other DC charging standard of any kind.

DANandNAN said:
NONE will pay for it, as your DC station failure shows. Many folks that can afford to use DC charging on a regular basis will be driving expensive luxury cars
If you can afford gasoline, you can afford DC quick charge. Even at $7 per use which is in practice in at least one network of chargers, that's cheaper than gasoline on a $/mile - albeit barely. Charging for DC QC does not make it expensive, just not free.

DANandNAN said:
The math is simple. You posted it yourself, you said you couldn't sell DC to Leaf owners. So which way will stations and the market go ;)
...probably to the one that people can actually buy. Didn't I read something about Nissan fitting CHAdeMO ports as standard equip for new models?
=Smidge=
 
Smidge204 said:
DANandNAN said:
The bottom line is still the bottom line, 8 major manufacturers are going with the SAE Combo.
None of them have produced an EV that uses it. Only two of them produce any plugin vehicle at all that you can buy now, and even those will likely not have the SAE standard plug installed on them for at least four model years if ever. So at absolute best you will have to wait three to four years for a vehicle compliant with a standard that's not even a full and proper standard yet, at worst there may never be a compliant vehicle.

DANandNAN said:
Nissan probably has less than 10k cars that can use DC.
Nissan has more CHAdeMO compliant vehicles on the road than any other manufacturer available in the US has of any other DC charging standard of any kind.

DANandNAN said:
NONE will pay for it, as your DC station failure shows. Many folks that can afford to use DC charging on a regular basis will be driving expensive luxury cars
If you can afford gasoline, you can afford DC quick charge. Even at $7 per use which is in practice in at least one network of chargers, that's cheaper than gasoline on a $/mile - albeit barely. Charging for DC QC does not make it expensive, just not free.

DANandNAN said:
The math is simple. You posted it yourself, you said you couldn't sell DC to Leaf owners. So which way will stations and the market go ;)
...probably to the one that people can actually buy. Didn't I read something about Nissan fitting CHAdeMO ports as standard equip for new models?
=Smidge=
Knowing that there is a standard coming, one that GM, Porsche, BMW, Audi, Chrysler, VW, Mercedes and Ford have all agreed to, yet still selling cars with something else is dumb. You realize that all those manufacturers knew that there were 10k CHAdeMO cars in the U.S. (28K in total) and yet they didn't care, right? For whatever reason(s) they've chosen what they're going to go with, in spite of Nissan & CHAdeMO's campaign.

As to the chargers, I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Look at the numbers, a MNL poll found that almost NO ONE wanted to pay what it actually cost including profit. It was a lot more than the $7 they're charging in Chicago and a few other places. Even at $7 people didn't want to pay for the "convenience", they'd rather drive an ICE. So, on the largest Leaf forum, which should be a fair representation of owners, almost none would pay for DC - but that's not a problem and keep the CHAdeMO going???

The big question is, would you buy another Leaf with a CHAdeMO when in a year or two? Honestly? We'll still buy one but only because of the 6.6 L2, there are no DC stations and since we're leasing I don't care as much about the resale value being hurt by CHAdeMO.
 
DANandNAN said:
... Knowing that there is a standard coming, one that GM, Porsche, BMW, Audi, Chrysler, VW, Mercedes and Ford have all agreed to, yet still selling cars with something else is dumb. You realize that all those manufacturers knew that there were 10k CHAdeMO cars in the U.S. (28K in total) and yet they didn't care, right? For whatever reason(s) they've chosen what they're going to go with, in spite of Nissan & CHAdeMO's campaign. ...
Since they aren't selling any DCQC capable cars now or in the foreseeable future, I submit that they don't CARE about the infrastructure...and that's being charitable.

You know, I've just decided that anyone with the gall to come into a Nissan LEAF forum and call Nissan's efforts to market EVs NOW, dumb deserves the foe list.
 
DANandNAN said:
Knowing that there is a standard coming, one that GM, Porsche, BMW, Audi, Chrysler, VW, Mercedes and Ford have all agreed to, yet still selling cars with something else is dumb.
The reason these guys went with a new "standard" is because they want to confuse the market and slow down the progress of EVs. "Who killed the QC ?".
 
Back
Top