z0ner
Well-known member
hill said:
Although that's a hefty chunk of change, I love this kind of bird's-eye thinking and definitely want to be counted in as an "investor".
Quick Charging comes to Southern California
- Thread starter mwalsh
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Although that's a hefty chunk of change, I love this kind of bird's-eye thinking and definitely want to be counted in as an "investor".
Adrian
Well-known member
z0ner said:
If you get this idea going, count me in as well.
JPVLeaf
Well-known member
Ditto!Adrian said:
hill
Well-known member
95 hand raisers to go . .
Looking for a site might be farther up the "to-do" list than I realize. AV will soon be readying their 480 DC station for certification. Competition is good!
Looking for a site might be farther up the "to-do" list than I realize. AV will soon be readying their 480 DC station for certification. Competition is good!
GaslessInSeattle
Well-known member
- Joined
- May 6, 2011
- Messages
- 1,566
So how much are DC QC's on the open market? This could get very interesting!
G
G
Boomer23
Well-known member
I had some time today and stopped by the Mitsubishi HQ to learn more. I happened to meet up in the parking lot with one of Mitsubishi's chief engineers in charge of regulatory affairs, who is a terrific guy, by the way. He is very motivated to see QC stations that are open to all EVs with ChaDeMO plugs. But my take-home message for all of us is the same as mwalsh cautioned on the other thread about this, Go Slowly and Tread Lightly. It is likely to be counter productive for many of us to flock to their Quick Charge site during business hours in the first few weeks after their launch.
Remember that Mitsubishi installed this QC port primarily to support the launch of their own Mitsubishi i (iMiev). It's not surprising that some people within the company might look askance at a flock of their competitor's cars coming often to use the QC station, especially so soon after its high visibility launch. From what I could tell from speaking with the gentleman, there is certainly an interest in making this QC station open to all EVs with ChaDeMO ports, and that's likely the way it will evolve. But let's keep a low profile for a few weeks. I'd suggest that mwalsh, since he has already made contact with the folks at Mitsubishi, be our point person and let us know when it might be appropriate to start going there for a quick charge. It also might turn out to be best if we concentrate on after hours visits, IF Mitsubishi decides to keep the station unlocked after business hours. Hopefully, mwalsh will be able to clue us in to details like that as time goes by.
Personally, I'm going to keep a low profile and wait to hear more before I venture back there, just to keep everyone at Mitsubishi happy and open to the idea of their QC unit being available for all of us.
Remember that Mitsubishi installed this QC port primarily to support the launch of their own Mitsubishi i (iMiev). It's not surprising that some people within the company might look askance at a flock of their competitor's cars coming often to use the QC station, especially so soon after its high visibility launch. From what I could tell from speaking with the gentleman, there is certainly an interest in making this QC station open to all EVs with ChaDeMO ports, and that's likely the way it will evolve. But let's keep a low profile for a few weeks. I'd suggest that mwalsh, since he has already made contact with the folks at Mitsubishi, be our point person and let us know when it might be appropriate to start going there for a quick charge. It also might turn out to be best if we concentrate on after hours visits, IF Mitsubishi decides to keep the station unlocked after business hours. Hopefully, mwalsh will be able to clue us in to details like that as time goes by.
Personally, I'm going to keep a low profile and wait to hear more before I venture back there, just to keep everyone at Mitsubishi happy and open to the idea of their QC unit being available for all of us.
Thank you for your thoughtful recommendation on moving forward with the potential use of the charger. I agree with the approach recommended. Ultimately ,I would like to be able to use the charger because it opens up the potential of my being able to use LAX. Perhaps a gift to their favorite charity might be a good gesture.
Boomer23
Well-known member
nader said:
Nope. They were setting up shade covers and tables for tomorrow's Mitsu Owners' Day celebration and the gentleman that I spoke to told me that the lot was closed today. The charger handle was locked behind its metal shield, so there was no access, and it appeared to be turned off.
LMW
Member
hill said:95 hand raisers to go . .
Looking for a site might be farther up the "to-do" list than I realize. AV will soon be readying their 480 DC station for certification. Competition is good!
+1! This is exactly where I'd need one!
walterbays
Well-known member
I think that owning or leasing land would be too burdensome for a group of enthusiasts coming together on the Internet.hill said:
However, building our own L3 station may not be necessary. Remember that in the EV Project some BP/Arco stations are adding L3 charging stations. There are several Arco stations in the vicinity of San Juan Capistrano near the I-5, and it may be that one or more of them is already planning to install an L3 station. You could ask them. And if they aren't planning it yet, maybe they should be. Think of all the traffic between LA and San Diego, and their station perfectly positioned to take advantage of it, and all the snacks and drinks bought by drivers, and all the extra traffic of curious people coming into their stores to look at the fast EV charging. Maybe we would get a station owner to contact Arco HQ and/or the EV Project to explore the possibilities.
If no Arco station is interested, then we could place an L3 station somewhere in that area, and I'm interested in joining. Instead of buying or leasing land, I'd think that some business owner might be persuaded to host the charging station. He/she would pay none of the installation costs, and none of the operating costs, and would get none of the direct revenue. The incentives would be the increased traffic at the business, and the publicity of the "green aura," and of being the first business in the region to provide such a service.
This map shows some possible locations along the I-5 between Laguna Woods and San Clemente: 4 Arco stations, 9 Starbucks, and 6 shopping centers. Fast food restaurants and convenience stores would also seem to be good possibilities. Everyone can view the map. If you're interested in adding locations and/or annotations, PM me with your email address and I'll send you a Google invitation as a "collaborator," allowing you to edit the map and to invite other collaborators as you see fit.
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=217082007843370287021.0004a791fdc37e435fdf9
Actually I'm not sure that an invitation is needed. You might be able to edit it just by going to that URL, and that's fine. It's still pretty much limited to MNL readers.
I think we'd need to form a non-profit corporation with membership, an initiation fee to cover the start-up costs of building the station, possibly an annual membership fee, a board of directors, articles of incorporation, bylaws, and a budget accounting for installation and operation of the L3 charging station. To begin with we could communicate among the group simply by posting in one thread on MNL. Later we'd probably want a (free) Google Group or Yahoo Group.
Besides the cost of the L3 station itself, significant start-up expenses might include legal fees for forming the non-profit, drafting the membership agreement, and the agreement with the property owner. It would sure be nice if an attorney were among the first members
and I'd be for waiving their initiation fee.The station should be on the Blink or Chargepoint networks for billing. Probably there would be one charging fee for members and another fee for non-members, who would be encouraged to join. If enough new members joined there would be enough reserves to open a second charging station, and the membership would have to decide where it should be located. And so on.
Devin
Well-known member
walterbays said:I think we'd need to form a non-profit corporation with membership, an initiation fee to cover the start-up costs of building the station, possibly an annual membership fee, a board of directors, articles of incorporation, bylaws, and a budget accounting for installation and operation of the L3 charging station. To begin with we could communicate among the group simply by posting in one thread on MNL. Later we'd probably want a (free) Google Group or Yahoo Group.
Besides the cost of the L3 station itself, significant start-up expenses might include legal fees for forming the non-profit, drafting the membership agreement, and the agreement with the property owner. It would sure be nice if an attorney were among the first members
Perhaps this could be a partnership with or subsidiary of the Electric Auto Association or Plug In America? They already have many of those resources built up, including a substantial membership made up primarily of EV owners or future-owners. I've met quite a few board members of PIA that would likely be very receptive to this sort of an idea.
It'd sure beat leaving L3 chargers up to the likes of BP, who have a vested interest in promoting their primary product, gasoline. EAA and PIA's missions are primarily to support and advocate for the widespread adoption of plug in vehicles. It seems more efficient to create the infrastructure instead of simply lobbying for others to do so.
Either way, I'd also be interested in being a potential investor.
Boomer23
Well-known member
GaslessInSeattle said:
The engineer at Mitsubishi that I spoke with today mentioned a cost around $100,000, including trenching and cable from the power source to the charger location. Remember that we are speaking about very heavy supply cable for this purpose.
hill
Well-known member
Oy Vey! You sure that wasn't yen?Boomer23 said:
That is a HUGE mark up compared to the Vacaville charger ... which was put in for less than HALF that much ... while other brands are even LESS:
http://cleantechnica.com/2010/05/31/first-us-ev-fast-charger-gets-installed-in-vacaville/
If you got all the start up costs (contracts, insurance/ permits, etc) for 50K ... divide that into 100 people (or more) ... you're now talking about an affordable / reasonable amount of capitol. $1.50 per 15 minutes would be a bargain!
walterbays
Well-known member
Better yet! If they were willing to take this on, and came up with some sort of buy-in to the program I'd be interested.Devin said:
hill
Well-known member
Phil you must have been pulling in to Mitsubishi today, just as I was leaving.Boomer23 said:
I left around 1:45. The security guard mentioned he (very politely) shooed away several other Leaf'rs from the private ceremony that Mitsubishi was in the process of setting up. I still want to drop by very early tomorrow morning and see if I can hook up ... even if it's just to get their site to register on my Leaf maps.
btw, I don't want to sound like I'm blowing off the whole "tread lightly" theme. But in the same vein, Mitsubishi and Nissan's Chademo issue makes them/us partners. There is a VERY strong resentment in the SAE industry to Chademo charging, that most here will not grasp. The U.S. industry wants to do anything / everything in its power to set up its own standard. They're talking about "simply" adding an additional set of prongs to the existing J1772 plug / port, for example. If certain entities have their way - they will bury chademo formats ... just like many 240V appliances were done away with here in the U.S.
Let's not forget how Microsoft became bigger than IBM ... and how they destroyed netscape ... word perfect and the like. By flooding the market and practically giving away their product. The good folks using chademo will do well to follow the same strategy. This could easily become the same kind of business/war imo.
.
DaveinOlyWA
Well-known member
hill said:
$500 sounds crazy, but if charging at home on solar, you would be gaining $20-30 per trip in "non-gas" costs. one trip a month and half of that is recup'd in a year. not a bad ROI!
GeorgeParrott
Well-known member
- Joined
- Aug 12, 2010
- Messages
- 207
There will be more CHAdeMO chargers installed in the next 6 months. Several areas have DOE or ARRA grants for just that purpose, but the actual installations have been VERY slow to get moving. Dallas/Ft. Worth will have 35 such and Houston another 25. From the California/Oregon border to Portland there will be something like 40+ DC Quick Charge stations installed by the end of this year with funds already assigned for that purpose.
I ASSUME that many such stations are already funded around California, but here, as we all know, the actual operational roll-out should be measured in glacial time.
Check out the CHAdeMO international website: http://www.chademo.com/
For North America the access to DC Quick Charge stations is simply embarrassing or should be to our regional power coordinators. Keep screaming to your state and regional political "leaders." They really can make this move, IF they think people are looking.
I ASSUME that many such stations are already funded around California, but here, as we all know, the actual operational roll-out should be measured in glacial time.
Check out the CHAdeMO international website: http://www.chademo.com/
For North America the access to DC Quick Charge stations is simply embarrassing or should be to our regional power coordinators. Keep screaming to your state and regional political "leaders." They really can make this move, IF they think people are looking.
Randy
Well-known member
It's not just about the cost to purchase and install a DC Fast Charge unit, which is definitely a chunk of change. I think many people are going to be very surprised when they see what the cost of a charge will be at some of these DC Fast Charger sites, given the various commercial utility rates, potential demand charges, and the host(s) desire to make it self-supporting or even turn a profit...
Devin
Well-known member
Randy said:
Good point. That got me thinking. Here's some quick calculations with many assumptions made...
Cost of charger, site, installation, etc.: $50,000
Investors at $500/ea: 100
80% charge of a Nissan LEAF: 20kWh (actually 19.2kWh but assuming some overhead)
Average vehicles/day: 6
Average electricity sold per day: 120kWh
Average electricity sold per year: 43,800kWh
Electricity Cost to Charger Owner
LADWP: $0.12/kWh (General Service Below 30kW summer)
SCE: $0.231/kWh (GS-1 summer)
PG&E: $0.18/kWh (Commercial/General A-1 average)
Annual Electricity Cost to Charger Owner
LADWP: $5,256.00 (actually less when averaged with winter rate)
SCE: $10,117.80 (actually less when averaged with winter rate)
PG&E: $7,884.00
Total Cost Over 10 Years
Includes charger cost, but does not include maintenance, repairs, taxes, marketing, grants, sponsorship, or incentives.
LADWP: $102,560
SCE: $151,178
PG&E: $128,840
Profit Based on Electricity Cost to Customers
$0.30/kWh - $6.00/20kWh - Equivalent to Gasoline Cost of $2.40 in 32MPG Vehicle
LADWP Profit: $0.18/kWh - $7,884.00/yr
SCE Profit: $0.069/kWh - $3,022.20/yr
PG&E Profit: $0.12/kWh - $5,256.00/yr
$0.45/kWh - $9.00/20kWh - Equivalent to Gasoline Cost of $3.60 in 32MPG Vehicle
LADWP Profit: $0.33/kWh - $14,454.00/yr
SCE Profit: $0.219/kWh - $9592.20/yr
PG&E Profit: $0.27/kWh - $11,826.00/yr
Charger Equipment & Installation Payoff Time
LADWP - $0.30/kWh: 6 years, 4 months
LADWP - $0.45/kWh: 3 years, 6 months
SCE - $0.30/kWh: 16 years, 6 months
SCE - $0.45/kWh: 5 years, 3 months
PG&E - $0.30/kWh: 9 years, 6 months
PG&E - $0.45/kWh: 4 years, 3 months
So in theory, the payoff time could be somewhat reasonable. Obviously the electric provider has a substantial effect on the profitability of this plan. Furthermore, the rates will likely rise over time (but so could the electric rate charged to the customer). Another option for electricity sourcing to ensure some rate stability would be to use a solar leasing plan where you pay a fixed rate. Any overages beyond the leased solar panels would be compensated by increased revenues, but solar would help ensure a more specific payoff time. Sponsorships or affiliations with other like-minded organizations could help decrease the cost further. This could include other non-profits or member controlled companies (think credit unions) that may be willing to provide the land required as long as they don't bear the costs of the equipment. It could also include small retail establishments that have an interest in getting people on their premises for 30 minutes.
Food for thought.
