charging infrastructure supporting NACS

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cwerdna said:
Regarding this chatter about different versions of Superchargers (e.g. v2 or below) not being capable of talking CCS's protocols, is this documented or reported by an credible source somewhere? I've heard this in other circles but also don't know the source and didn't bother asking, partly due to lack of time and interest.

It would create quite a bit of confusion when automakers signed onto NACS have a NACS to CCS1 adapter that works have to give the caveat that you need to go to v3 or newer Supercharger. How is Joe Average EV driver supposed to know this? They'll see the branding, typical look of the stalls and units, etc. and wouldn't have a clue. I have no idea how to tell nor do I care since I've never had a car that could use them anyway.

Or, will all US Superchargers be v3 or greater by then or will older ones be retrofitted to talk CCS?

Re: GB/T et al., https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/tesla-charge-ports-plugs-from-china-north-america-and-europe-compared-for-models-s-x-3-y.246571/ is a good summary. This is before Tesla named their plug/standard NACS. The author calls it TPC.
Since not all Supercharger Stations will be available to Ford, GM and other car drivers, my presumption is that only the stations that are open to them will appear on their car navigation screens or phone apps. Others would show as closed or not available, if they are displayed at all. There was never any suggestion that all stations would be open to non Tesla cars.

On Tesla cars, navigation displays twenty or so Supercharger Stations in the area, the number of stalls available updated in real time, a rough idea of the wait time if the station is full (short wait, long wait}, and gives turn by turn instructions to get to the chosen station, as well as estimated battery percentage on arrival updated in real time, along with a precise pin location on the map. How much of that Ford and GM will do with their navigation remains to be seen.

Even some heavily used V3 Supercharger Stations may be unavailable to non Tesla drivers. When the Ford and GM announcements were made, the number of Supercharger stalls discussed, about 12,000 IIRC, was far fewer than the number of stalls available, even V3 stalls. Hence my guess — that's all it is — that not all V3 stations will be open to non Tesla cars.

Despite the crowds at a small number of urban stations, most Supercharger Stations are lightly used most of the time. By allowing use by other car brands, Tesla will get more revenue from existing assets, which will allow them to expand the network even faster than they are doing already.
 
Despite the crowds at a small number of urban stations, most Supercharger Stations are lightly used most of the time.

There is a 16-stall Tesla station near us, maximum number of cars seen charging there over the past few years: 4, ever, usually one or none. The next nearest Tesla station is over 75 miles away, so the premise that Tesla is better suited to traveling is false at least around here- between this Tesla station and the next one there are multiple CCS/Chademo chargers. Fewer stalls per station but way more convenient locations.
 
dmacarthur said:
Despite the crowds at a small number of urban stations, most Supercharger Stations are lightly used most of the time.

There is a 16-stall Tesla station near us, maximum number of cars seen charging there over the past few years: 4, ever, usually one or none. The next nearest Tesla station is over 75 miles away, so the premise that Tesla is better suited to traveling is false at least around here- between this Tesla station and the next one there are multiple CCS/Chademo chargers. Fewer stalls per station but way more convenient locations.
I guess I don't understand your point. Seventy-five miles is a trivial distance for any modern EV when traveling long distance, assuming that it is in the direction one wants to go. For local use, by those without home charging, sure — having convenient locations is helpful. For road trips, one wants stations located every 50 to 100 miles along major routes. I live in a remote rural mountain location, a hundred miles from the nearest Interstate highway, and the nearest Supercharger Station is thirty miles away. I don't use it save for returning from road trips to get the last bit of charge to make it home.

I hope that, eventually, DCFC stations will be as ubiquitous as gas stations are now so that most freeway exits will have several to choose from.

I have some experience with road trips, having done more than 100,000 miles of long trips, of my total of 153,000 miles, over the last seven years. 431 different Supercharger Stations in 22 states and 2 provinces, most recently 4500 miles in May to Oregon (ninth routine family visit) and four national parks in Alberta and BC. The difference in Supercharger Station coverage seven years ago and now is considerable and it has been fun to experience.

I hope that I'm stating the obvious when I point out that road tripping in an EV is quite different from doing so in an ICE car. In an EV, one wants to charge just enough to make the next fast charge station, plus a safety buffer of perhaps 20% in case of unexpected weather issues. Then charge only enough to make the next stop. The reason is that cars charge much more quickly when near empty and slow as they fill. It is more time efficient to fast charge only during the rapid part of the charge curve. That means more short charge stops rather than fewer, much longer, charge stops. Level 2 destination charging to near full overnight is also helpful because it means skipping several fast charge stops the next morning.


Back on topic: On May 25th the Ford CEO said “This is great news for our customers who will have unprecedented access to the largest network of fast-chargers in the U.S. and Canada with 12,000+ Tesla Superchargers plus 10,000+ fast-chargers already in the BlueOval Charge Network.” At the time, there were about 2004 open Supercharger Stations with about 21,400 stalls. Since 12,000+ stalls is fewer than the total, 21,400, and far fewer than the number of stalls that will be active next year when the adapters are available, my assumption is that Ford (and GM and others) will have access to only part of the Supercharger network, at least to begin with.

For the record: In North America, Tesla currently has 2094 open Supercharger Stations, with 22,387 stalls. There are 171 stations under construction and 318 stations with permits issued but not under construction, so far as has been observed (source: supercharge.info). The number of Supercharger Stations and stalls continues to increase rapidly.

Adding to this is the report today that seven major automakers now plan a joint venture to build 30,000 stalls in USA and Canada:

G.M. and Other Automakers Will Build 30,000 Electric Vehicle Chargers
 
I guess I don't understand your point. Seventy-five miles is a trivial distance for any modern EV when traveling long distance, assuming that it is in the direction one wants to go.

My point is that I might not even be going in the direction of the next Tesla stations- not everyone travels the same routes. If you are going anywhere else there will be both CCS and ChadeMo stations available but not Tesla. They got the numbers right, and the speed, but not the convenient locations. Most of my road trips in the last 5 years have NOT been toward Tesla stations but the sprinkling of other DCFCs along the various routes is making things easier.
 
"GM, BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes and Stellantis to build EV charging network"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/gm-bmw-honda-hyundai-kia-mercedes-and-stellantis-to-build-ev-charging-network/ar-AA1ermRz

Looks like they'll be including both NACS and CCS plugs.
 
henrydehoja said:
"GM, BMW, Honda, Hyundai, Kia, Mercedes and Stellantis to build EV charging network"
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/gm-bmw-honda-hyundai-kia-mercedes-and-stellantis-to-build-ev-charging-network/ar-AA1ermRz

Looks like they'll be including both NACS and CCS plugs.
Yeah, I posted about that development over at https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=632830#p632830 but good to have it here too.
 
dmacarthur said:
I guess I don't understand your point. Seventy-five miles is a trivial distance for any modern EV when traveling long distance, assuming that it is in the direction one wants to go.

My point is that I might not even be going in the direction of the next Tesla stations- not everyone travels the same routes. If you are going anywhere else there will be both CCS and ChadeMo stations available but not Tesla. They got the numbers right, and the speed, but not the convenient locations. Most of my road trips in the last 5 years have NOT been toward Tesla stations but the sprinkling of other DCFCs along the various routes is making things easier.

But Tesla owners currently can not only use NACS for fast charging but can use CSS for DC fast charging and NACS or J1772 for L1 or L2 destination chargers with supplied adaptor.

After having lived with J1772 and CHAdeMo with our Nissan leafs for 7 years and now having a Tesla there is no comparison. Hopefully Nissan will jump on the NACS bandwagon and NACS chargers will be built with cords long enough to comfortably reach other brand cars.
 
Flyct said:
But Tesla owners currently can not only use NACS for fast charging but can use CSS for DC fast charging and NACS or J1772 for L1 or L2 destination chargers with supplied adaptor.

After having lived with J1772 and CHAdeMo with our Nissan leafs for 7 years and now having a Tesla there is no comparison. Hopefully Nissan will jump on the NACS bandwagon and NACS chargers will be built with cords long enough to comfortably reach other brand cars.
Not all Tesla (Model S and beyond) drivers can use CCS. Their vehicle may need a retrofit and they will definitely need an adapter (https://shop.tesla.com/product/ccs-combo-1-adapter) in either case.

For may, see https://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=615350#p615350 and https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/ccs-adapter-for-north-america.165490/page-35#post-6252144, for example.

Nissan did announce they're going to NACS for Ariya and future EVs: https://usa.nissannews.com/en-US/releases/nissan-to-adopt-north-american-charging-standard-nacs-for-ariya-and-future-ev-models.
 
The charging infrastructure supporting NACS (New-Age Clean Energy Solutions) is nothing short of revolutionary. As we embrace sustainable technologies, a robust charging network is pivotal for the widespread adoption of electric vehicles and clean energy solutions. NACS envisions a future where eco-friendly transportation is accessible to all, and this charging infrastructure is the backbone of that vision. By investing in and expanding this network, we pave the way for a greener, healthier planet, reducing our carbon footprint and ensuring a sustainable tomorrow for generations to come. Let's unite in our efforts to build and support this essential infrastructure for a cleaner, brighter future.
 
kamini10 said:
The charging infrastructure supporting NACS (New-Age Clean Energy Solutions) is nothing short of revolutionary.

This topic is actually about the North American Charging Standard (NACS), or Tesla connector.

Feel free to visit the links shown in the above posts for more information.
 
cwerdna said:
Toby said:
To me it looks like Nissan has put its eggs in the wrong basket. The world doesn't need any more SUVs, electric or otherwise. What we need is small, efficient cars. (and good public transit) The Leaf was a winner. It should be updated with CCS or NACS and battery temperature control. The leaf should have some small stable mates.

Back in the 1970s there was a big oil crunch. Suddenly everyone wanted a small car. Those companies that had small cars - Volkswagan, Datsun, Toyota, etc. sold a lot of cars. Something similar is bound to happen again as the price of gas inevitably goes up.
Unfortunately, many Americans like their land yachts, battering ram of death class SUVs, suburban assault vehicles, etc.

I remember seeing a piece on TV earlier tonight about larger 7-seater with 3rd row EV SUVs coming soon. I found https://www.wsj.com/articles/here-come-the-family-evs-f03f836a but it's probably behind a paywall. https://archive.is/LTlrY should let you see it.

Too bad they never learned to drive their gasser versions. I was cruising the aisle in the Safeway parking lot headed to the Volta for some freebies when this SUV comes the other way. Had AT LEAST 6-7 feet clearance on the passenger side and refused to drive past me so I drove past her with about 6" clearance on purpose. The lady rolled her window down and the stream of expletives hit my ears well before we were even with each other. I just gave her the biggest grin I could muster. She was "pleased" :lol:
 
dgpcolorado said:
dmacarthur said:
Despite the crowds at a small number of urban stations, most Supercharger Stations are lightly used most of the time.

There is a 16-stall Tesla station near us, maximum number of cars seen charging there over the past few years: 4, ever, usually one or none. The next nearest Tesla station is over 75 miles away, so the premise that Tesla is better suited to traveling is false at least around here- between this Tesla station and the next one there are multiple CCS/Chademo chargers. Fewer stalls per station but way more convenient locations.
I guess I don't understand your point. Seventy-five miles is a trivial distance for any modern EV when traveling long distance, assuming that it is in the direction one wants to go. For local use, by those without home charging, sure — having convenient locations is helpful. For road trips, one wants stations located every 50 to 100 miles along major routes. I live in a remote rural mountain location, a hundred miles from the nearest Interstate highway, and the nearest Supercharger Station is thirty miles away. I don't use it save for returning from road trips to get the last bit of charge to make it home.

I hope that, eventually, DCFC stations will be as ubiquitous as gas stations are now so that most freeway exits will have several to choose from.

I have some experience with road trips, having done more than 100,000 miles of long trips, of my total of 153,000 miles, over the last seven years. 431 different Supercharger Stations in 22 states and 2 provinces, most recently 4500 miles in May to Oregon (ninth routine family visit) and four national parks in Alberta and BC. The difference in Supercharger Station coverage seven years ago and now is considerable and it has been fun to experience.

I hope that I'm stating the obvious when I point out that road tripping in an EV is quite different from doing so in an ICE car. In an EV, one wants to charge just enough to make the next fast charge station, plus a safety buffer of perhaps 20% in case of unexpected weather issues. Then charge only enough to make the next stop. The reason is that cars charge much more quickly when near empty and slow as they fill. It is more time efficient to fast charge only during the rapid part of the charge curve. That means more short charge stops rather than fewer, much longer, charge stops. Level 2 destination charging to near full overnight is also helpful because it means skipping several fast charge stops the next morning.


Back on topic: On May 25th the Ford CEO said “This is great news for our customers who will have unprecedented access to the largest network of fast-chargers in the U.S. and Canada with 12,000+ Tesla Superchargers plus 10,000+ fast-chargers already in the BlueOval Charge Network.” At the time, there were about 2004 open Supercharger Stations with about 21,400 stalls. Since 12,000+ stalls is fewer than the total, 21,400, and far fewer than the number of stalls that will be active next year when the adapters are available, my assumption is that Ford (and GM and others) will have access to only part of the Supercharger network, at least to begin with.

For the record: In North America, Tesla currently has 2094 open Supercharger Stations, with 22,387 stalls. There are 171 stations under construction and 318 stations with permits issued but not under construction, so far as has been observed (source: supercharge.info). The number of Supercharger Stations and stalls continues to increase rapidly.

Adding to this is the report today that seven major automakers now plan a joint venture to build 30,000 stalls in USA and Canada:

G.M. and Other Automakers Will Build 30,000 Electric Vehicle Chargers

Maybe not as trivial to some. I can see your point based on your location where nothing is really close. But in a densely populated area where a 10 mile detour can easily add an hour to get back on track, I see SEVERAL Teslatonians using the MUCH slower EVgo stations. I asked one guy and he basically put it "I don't see the advantage of driving out of my way for a faster charge when there is NOTHING I want to do in that location. I'd rather charge much slower because I don't care because now I am eating at one of my favorite restaurants and NEED a longer charging time. "

When I caught up with him, he had taken 50+ kwh in a session lasting nearly an hour. This was not a cheap charge.
 
Related to the announcement that Honda will be adopting NACS, via ABG:
. . . Looking to the future, Honda is part of a joint venture with seven other global automakers that will see the installation of more than 30,000 EV fast-charging stations across the United States and Canada. The chargers are still in development, but Honda says the companies are all aligned on the core values that are needed to make this charging network successful.

"The software needs to be really reliable and really open infrastructure so it communicates with every OEM's software," Jay Joseph, American Honda's Vice President of Sustainability and Business Development, said in Friday's interview. "The hardware needs to be capable of the highest levels of charging. It needs to be secure, it needs to be reliable, it needs to be accessible."

Joseph said the current public charging companies know and understand the shortcomings with their systems, and that Tesla’s Superchargers set an example of how to do chargers right.

"If you look at what's so great about the Tesla Supercharger network, it's the maintenance," Joseph said. "They stay on top of it, they've got someone onsite monitoring the equipment, they're monitoring it electronically and remotely, and they fix it – fast. That's probably the most important thing. . . ."

https://www.autoblog.com/2023/08/18/honda-acura-evs-will-adopt-teslas-nacs-charging-port/
 
cwerdna said:
This is sorta divergent but I think this is pretty big news. Was quite a shocker to me when someone at work posted it this morning.

SAE to standardize Tesla NACS charging connector
https://www.sae.org/news/2023/06/sae-to-standardize-nacs-charging-connector

https://insideevs.com/news/674092/sae-standardize-tesla-nacs-charging-connector/

This should make us safe from erratic decisions from Musk or even one company then right? At least on the overall standard if not the superchargers themselves. My biggest issue with NACS unlike CHAdeMO for example is it was not a standard exactly and was entirely controlled by a single company. I do not want a Toyota gas station and a Ford gas station, I want a gas station if I was driving an ICE, same for an EV. Looks like we are achieving it. My big issues with NACS go away. As much as I dislike Musk this connector is smaller and easier to use if it is a real standard we may have our universal plug now in North America.
 
This is sorta divergent but I think this is pretty big news. Was quite a shocker to me when someone at work posted it this morning.

SAE to standardize Tesla NACS charging connector
https://www.sae.org/news/2023/06/sae-to-standardize-nacs-charging-connector
https://insideevs.com/news/674092/sae-standardize-tesla-nacs-charging-connector/
Looks like the SAE is ready with their NACS certification:
https://electrek.co/2023/12/15/saes...d-itll-fix-every-ev-charging-problem-at-once/
 
I'm pleased that there will finally be a DCFC standard plug/receptacle for all EVs. I am perplexed, however, that it didn't go in the other direction like in Europe, where Tesla had to conform to the CCS2 standard. I would have been just as happy with CCS1, despite its "bulkier" connection. Moreover, I wouldn't put it past Tesla's eccentric, unstable CEO to put up obstacles and hoops to jump through for the transition. We'll see.

The good news is that 3rd-party outfits are already taking pre-orders for NACS-to-CCS1 adapters, like Lectron's Vortex Plug and A2Z's Typhoon Plug. In fact, the latter company is even developing a NACS Extension Cord, sorely needed since Tesla's v2 and v3 cables are too short to accomodate other makes of EVs.
 
After having lived with J1772 and CHAdeMo with our Nissan leafs for 7 years and now having a Tesla there is no comparison.

That is what I have saying for years, along with the benefit of having a 300+ EPA range pack. But LEAF owners prefer to stick their heads in the sand and try to convince themselves that their LEAFs are all they will ever want from an EV.

People are funny that way.
 
The US Gov did not mandate NACS; it won on market merits because it is superior tech and and the CCS1 network is far inferior.

Yes the US Government does not mandate standards. That's why we had three charging standards. That's too bad. One is better, sooner is better than later.

No, NACS isn't superior technology. AC V2H and V2L are hard to implement with NACS. Best connector is CCS2, the EU standard. The EU has set standards for the gain of consumers and businesses alike.

Yes, the implementation of the CSS1 network has been inferior. The reasons why are interesting, but rather beside the point. The connector wasn't the problem.

If the Tesla network dominates charging, then Tesla can turn off a competing car for "technical reasons". This is market power. Or turn off a State if Musk doesn't like the local government. This is political power. Musk will abuse both, see Xitter. (Twitter with an X, remember "X" is pronounced as "sh")

Please give Musk as little power as you can. Buy your power on the road from someone else whenever possible.
 
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