Public L2 charging $1 - 1.50/h reasonable?

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EdmondLeaf

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 18, 2011
Messages
1,500
Location
Edmond, OK
Looking at Tom Saxton, Level 2 J1772 EV charging stations, it appears that price that owners wants to charge/(charge) is between $0.14/h in Orlando to as high as $3.99/h in NYC. What you think is acceptable price to pay for that service?
 
Assuming the parking itself has no value, or is charged for separately, I top out somewhere between $1 and $1.50/hr. The LEAF's 3.3kW charger just doesn't give me enough range to justify any more than that, except for desperation situations...and even at that, I won't charge unless I actually NEED it to complete my day's errands.
 
EdmondLeaf said:
Looking at Tom Saxton, Level 2 J1772 EV charging stations, it appears that price that owners wants to charge/(charge) is between $0.14/h in Orlando to as high as $3.99/h in NYC. What you think is acceptable price to pay for that service?

It should be more than it costs you at home but at the same time it should be less than it costs to drive your gas guzzler.

For example if the cost of electricity is 12 cents per kwh (national average) and the Leaf draws say 3.3kwh that would be about 40 cents per hour electricity. Now the owner of the station needs to get something to maintain the station into the future and that is the big unknown at this point.

I would say anything less than 1 dollar per hour is a good deal for me. I am sure there are others that think that is way too much, but I would much rather pay a dollar than have a push mobile. :)

kjd
 
MINI charges at 7.5kW, and I pay ~$0.20/kWh at home, so $1.50/hr is break even. Like any vending machine I expect to pay a premium for convienence. In a location with few options like LAX, Baker, or King City, $5/hr is not unreasonable.
 
I agree with the comment "more than at home and less than the cost to fill up the gas car"...

To me, this is a very fascinating subject...

To calculate what the host is paying to offer the service, it isn't accurate to just use a simple electricity cost calculation such as 12 cents per kWh. Depending on the source of the equipment, there could be hardware costs, installations costs, monthly network fees, etc. And in many locations there are electrical demand charges that also need to be factored in. And to top it all off, some cars will charge at 7.7kW from the EVSE, so they use double the energy as compared to what a LEAF would draw...

I doubt that any hosts will be looking at vehicle charging as a profit center, but more of a subsidized service to attract customers or for an environmental positive PR message.

I plan on using public stations where I can to help support the effort and thank the hosts for their investment, even though charging in my garage is probably adequate for most of my trips...
 
a handful of chargers here are in downtown lots that charge $1.50-$2 an hour whether you plug in or not. to pay both would be ridiculous and still waiting to see how that will work when Blink turns on the meter.

but L2 charging by the hour will stop people from camping out at the station and it gives back about 12 miles and that works out to 20 cents a mile which is not bad unless your other car is a Prius
 
In the downtown where I live, the city owns and operates 3 parking garages. Each parking garage has 1 ChargePoint charger. EV charging is free as long as you pay for parking at a rate of $0.50/hr. Other garages around the downtown are free and street parking can be had free after 6pm. On occasion I have parked in the city garages and charged, but not because I needed to. With my TOU rates at home I can pretty much charge to 80% for $0.50.

I wish more cities would installed these so I can drive, park and pay and charge. I wouldn't give it much thought to pay $2.50/hr for parking that included charging to visit someone for lunch and/or walking around, when I otherwise couldn't drive the LEAF. However, with the 3.3kw charger it is difficult because I need to spend a considerable amount of time (and money). Unless it was an emergency, or the combined cost was less than $2.50/hr I would not pay to park and then pay to charge on top of that.

Also, there is always the risk that the charger will be taken or not working when I arrive - then what do I do? ...probably find a 110v outlet in the garage ;-)
 
I think it should be no different than other products purchased which typically have 100% markup.
Assuming the parking is separate, it should be kW*rate*2. I don't know what commercial power costs but the residential GA peak rate is .08kW/h so an hour on a Leaf would be 3.3*.08*2= $0.53. You pay for what you consume and not time charging.
 
It's more complex but how about a ratio of electricity rate and time; so that as you charge the car you're not charged for the space but once you're fully charged the cost per hour goes up.

(base_parking_price) * (total_time - time_charging) + ((2 * price_of_electricity) * time_charging)

Example:

$2 / hour base price
3 hours charging
4 hours parked
$.12 electric cost

2 * (4 - 3) + (2 * .12 * 3) = $2.72

If you only spend time charging then no fee besides double the electric rate. This allows a payback via electricity and penalizes those that hog the space.

If the space normally costs money then the (total_time - time_charging) can be adjusted to something like: (total_time - (time_charging / 2)). Still an incentive to EVs because it's half price while charging.
 
I can't speak to other states but in California only electricity companies are allowed to sell you electricity. That's why charging stations charge you by the time and not the amount of electricity consumed. Which is to say that someone charging with 3.3kw charger (such as the Leaf) will consume less electricity than someone with a 6.6kw charger (such as the FFE). As more and more cars come out that have 6.6kw+, the prices may increase for charging and charging the Leaf at 3.3kw will become more comparatively more expensive.
 
EricBayArea said:
I can't speak to other states but in California only electricity companies are allowed to sell you electricity. That's why charging stations charge you by the time and not the amount of electricity consumed. Which is to say that someone charging with 3.3kw charger (such as the Leaf) will consume less electricity than someone with a 6.6kw charger (such as the FFE). As more and more cars come out that have 6.6kw+, the prices may increase for charging and charging the Leaf at 3.3kw will become more comparatively more expensive.

there is no physical reason for this. we simply need to break another monopoly. whether its Bil Oil, Big Coal or Big PUD's they all need to come to the 21st century if they expect continued support from me
 
Whatever any commercial outfit ends up charging for charging, may be moot. I, as I'm sure many of us have, calculated our driving habits prior to puchasing the Leaf. "Away" charging is a convenience for me, not a necessity. Until EVs obtain a 300+- range, I will always own a ICE for those longer trips. If most think like me (actually, that's highly unlikely :D ) commercial fee charging will either stagnate, or wither away.
 
San Jose has a bank of three L2 charging stations across the street from city hall. You have to pay for parking during the week (I don't remember exactly how much/hr.) and the parking is free on Sundays and holidays. It's about 7 blocks away for me so I usually park Sundays and to/from home for some free charging. The missus charges for free at Apple on Wednesdays at their L2s. Works out nicely. That said, I'd pay as much as $1.00/hr., I suppose, if I really needed to charge.
 
Eric...,
I think you are incorrect, and re-selling e's as e-fuel is an exception made by the CPUC.

If the L2s are installed to encourage me to use the "shopping" or facility, then I think free is reasonable, just like free nearby parking.

How much shopping do/would you do at a business/mall that has no free parking?
Only occasional, or where there is no other choice, I suspect.

For a fueling infrastructure, gas stations that took several hours to fuel your ICE vehicle would not work well for most people, I suspect.

The same goes for e-fuel.
The speed of QC, or faster, is needed.
 
EricBayArea said:
I can't speak to other states but in California only electricity companies are allowed to sell you electricity. That's why charging stations charge you by the time and not the amount of electricity consumed. Which is to say that someone charging with 3.3kw charger (such as the Leaf) will consume less electricity than someone with a 6.6kw charger (such as the FFE). As more and more cars come out that have 6.6kw+, the prices may increase for charging and charging the Leaf at 3.3kw will become more comparatively more expensive.
Simple solution - let one choose the charge rate before starting the charge. Charge 1 rate for up to 16A charging and another rate for up to 30A charging.

Then people with LEAFs, iMiEV, Volt, Prius plug-in don't pay double compared to Focus EV, ActiveE vehicles.
 
garygid said:
Eric...,
I think you are incorrect, and re-selling e's as e-fuel is an exception made by the CPUC.

I have previously posted the ruling, from 2010, I believe.

Yes, in California, electricity can be sold per kWh for the purpose of vehicle refueling.

On July 29, 2010, the... PUC ruled that the ownership or operation of a
facility that sells electricity at retail to the public for use
only as a motor vehicle fuel does not make the corporation or
person a "public utility" within the meaning of the Public
Utilities Code.
 
Sure, "Regular" (16 amp) and "Premium" (30 amp) service "mode/selection" could change the setting of the Max-Amps out of the EVSE. That is not charging directly for the electricity, but for the service level offered, I suspect.

Of course, if the EVSE did not enforce the limit (as some do not), a simple hack to the car would allow it to (attempt to) draw 30 amps even when "Regular" was selected.

But, in CA, as Tony points out, that there is NOT a problem in CA with "counting" the e-fuel dispensed, and basing the billing, at least partially, on that number.
 
The reason EVs are supported by government grants and many other political, environmental, federal, state, city organizations and is primarily because they have environmental benefits (fewer nasty emissions and fewer CO2 emissions, or no emissions if powered from renewable energy), reduce our dependence on foreign oil, increase our national security, etc. all of which comes from not burning gasoline.

Therefore to meet the goals of EVs and Plug In Vehicles you should never burn gasoline when there is the option to use electricity.

Therefore the cost of charging any EV or Plug In vehicle must always be less than the cost of gasoline for the same range (eg. miles of travel).

The Chevrolet Volt gets 37 MPG. At $4/gallon for gas, round it to $0.10 / mile, just to keep the math easy and ignoring that the Volt uses premium gasoline.
Using 3 miles/kWh for the electricity economy (EPA rates it at 2.8 m/kWh), again to keep the math easy.

That means 1 kW of electricity for the Volt must cost less than $0.30 .
($0.10 / mile for gasoline * 3 m/kWh = $0.30/kWh)

The Volt charges at up to 3.3 kW, so an hour of charging is 3.3 kWh. 3.3 kWh * $0.30 = $0.99

So for the Volt $1/hour at level 2 is the maximum you can charge, and that's roughly EQUAL to the gasoline costs. If you want to promote electric driving, it should be more like $0.50/hour. And you have to end the charging session as soon as the car stops charging, or it will be more expensive than gasoline as the car is being billed for time at the charger when it is already full.

If you're charging at Level 1 120V @ 12A that's 1.44 kW or 1.44 kWh for an hour of charging, so the maximum costs for gasoline equivalence is 1.44 kWh * $0.30/kWh = $0.43 . To encourage the use of electricity, it should be half that or less, $0.21 per hour of 120V charging. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Volt" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The math turns out to be similar for my LEAF, since if it costs more in electricity to use my LEAF than my 40 MPG 2002 Prius, I can take the Prius and use gas instead of taking my LEAF and using electricity.

For the current Prius, at 50 MPG and $4/gallon gasoline as an alternate vehicle to the LEAF, the numbers are:
$0.08 / mile for gasoline ($4 per gallon/50mpg = $0.08 / mile)
EPA rating for the LEAF 34 kWh/100 miles combined = 2.95 miles / kWh, again we'll round to 3 mi/kWh for easy math.
That means 1 kW of electricity for the LEAF must cost less than $0.24 (vs. 50 MPG Prius).
($0.08 / mile for gasoline * 3 m/kWh = $0.24/kWh)

On Level 2 240V the LEAF charges at up to 3.3 kW, so an hour of charging is 3.3 kWh. 3.3 kWh * $0.24 = $0.79
On Level 1 120V the LEAF charges at up to 1.44 kW, so an hour of charging is 1.44 kWh. 1.44 kWh * $0.24 = $0.35

Level 2 240V for LEAF $0.79/hour for gas equivalency, $0.40/hour (or less) to encourage electricity over gas.
Level 1 120V for LEAF $0.35/hour for gas equivalency, $0.17/hour to encourage electricity over gas.

Your driving style and other factors will affect these number by say 5 to 20%, but remember if you drive your EV more conservatively or aggressively, driving the same way in a gas vehicle will also effect the fuel economy in a simlar way, so the results will be similar - if you drive your EV twice as efficiently as everyone else, then you dirve your gas car twice as efficiently as everyone else, you'll get double the miles per kilowatt hour and double the miles per gallon so the ratio of cost between gas and electricity for the same distance remains roughly the same, you just go farther for the same equivalalent amount of gasoline or electrical energy.

For vehicles that charge at 6.6 kW you can double the cost per hour of charging. For vehicle that charge slower, you can proportionally discount the cost per hour of charging. For electric motorcycles or bicycles that charge at a slower rate, the cost per hour of charging should be even lower. The Plug in Prius with it's small 11 mile electric range will charge at level 2 240V in 1.5 hours, so the charging station had better bill fractional hours, and the Plug In Prius owner has to remeber to run out and unlug the Prius after 1.5 hours, or they'll be paying a good bit more than gasoline because the Prius battery only holds the electrical equivalent of $0.88 of gasoline! http://www.toyota.com/prius-plug-in/specs.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
 
TonyWilliams said:
I have previously posted the ruling, from 2010, I believe.

Yes, in California, electricity can be sold per kWh for the purpose of vehicle refueling.

On July 29, 2010, the... PUC ruled that the ownership or operation of a
facility that sells electricity at retail to the public for use
only as a motor vehicle fuel does not make the corporation or
person a "public utility" within the meaning of the Public
Utilities Code.

Tony, thank you for correcting me.
 
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