Public discussion of Tony Williams ban from Mynissanleaf

[SageBrush]

Look at yourself now, you are going off on a forum newbie who is purportedly blocked by you! All I did was say one little line that would be long-forgotten by now.

With rights come obligations.
If you want your ill-advised comments to be given a pass because you are a newbie, it behooves you to exercise some restraint.

 

[VitaminJ]

With rights come obligations.
If you want your ill-advised comments to be given a pass because you are a newbie, it behooves you to exercise some restraint.

Can you please quote something I said here that you would consider unrestrained? The only thing I've read that was unrestrained were Tony's emails. I think I have been quite personable in this thread. I did not claim newbie status, either. Tony thrust that upon me when he proclaimed himself "The 10,000: Master of All Forums."


In case you didn't see them, the text can be found here:
http://www.myrav4ev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2000

There is something f*ed up in your head and I have little patience for being f*ed with.

I have considered started a forum in the past, when you couldn't keep the forums running, but it's obvious to me now that we need to get into the forum business. You do know that I also pay other folks for advertising, right? Some of them know how to build websites... successful ones. I've actually discussed this over the years with several of them, because of your past stupid ****.
[...]
If there's ANY WAY that I can make your future profits and business just a little worse than it is, I absolutely guarantee I will pursue it. A*holes like you deserve nothing less.

"Hey s*head,
Remember when I took on Nissan with their failed LEAF batteries?
I absolutely guarantee that I will have competing forums to your poorly managed s*, and to make sure that happens, I'm setting aside a nice big chunk of change to take a financial bite out of your sorry fucking ass."

 

[TonyWilliams]

I must have put a real butt hurt on that guy above, eh? Jesus. The guy who isn't a party to ANY of this.

:shock:

 

[VitaminJ]

Your private business was made public so you should expect the public to comment. You called me out personally so I responded. When I am no longer being singled out by you, I will stop responding to you.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Your private business was made public so you should expect the public to comment. You called me out personally so I responded. When I am no longer being singled out by you, I will stop responding to you.

Again, I posted the link that YOU used to "get me" (at least you seem to think you pulled a zinger of some kind).

Since you're done responding, I suspect things on the internet are going to perk up a bit. Thanks.

Time for me to go to work now... you're not going to miss me a bit, are you?

 

[VitaminJ]

I was not responding to you, dear. SageBrush said I was the one who is unrestrained so I wanted to clear that up. Thanks for helping.

e: I thought you blocked me, meaning you didn't like what I had to say and wanted to ignore me, so you enabled a feature of the forum to block my posts. Now you are clicking on a special link on every single one of my posts specifically to respond. Stick to your convictions.

 

[FalconFour]

Both of you are just getting less and less professional reputation from this little exchange you're both engaging in here... neither of you has the willpower to just close the thread and ignore further comments...? Really, guys? Defending your ego can only go so far... at some point, doing so just becomes self-destructive. Literally, both of you appear like equal-leveled jerks right now.

Hopefully this can be the end. We get it. I see both of your points. I think we all do. Just... ugh, this has all taken both of your reps so far downhill in the past few posts... :?

Stahp.

 

[TonyWilliams]

Both of you are just getting less and less professional reputation from this little exchange you're both engaging in here... neither of you has the willpower to just close the thread and ignore further comments...? Really, guys? Defending your ego can only go so far... at some point, doing so just becomes self-destructive. Literally, both of you appear like equal-leveled jerks right now.

Hopefully this can be the end. We get it. I see both of your points. I think we all do. Just... ugh, this has all taken both of your reps so far downhill in the past few posts... :?

Stahp.

???? I think you're making a wee bit more out of these exchanges than they deserve credit. It's mindless banter; nothing more.

It's gunna be ok

 

[SageBrush]

My wife loves to remind our kids that no electronic communication is guaranteed to stay private, so it behooves them to err on the side of politeness and civility. It is good advice for us all.

 

[VitaminJ]

Both of you are just getting less and less professional reputation from this little exchange you're both engaging in here... neither of you has the willpower to just close the thread and ignore further comments...? Really, guys? Defending your ego can only go so far... at some point, doing so just becomes self-destructive. Literally, both of you appear like equal-leveled jerks right now.

Hopefully this can be the end. We get it. I see both of your points. I think we all do. Just... ugh, this has all taken both of your reps so far downhill in the past few posts... :?

Stahp.

He singled me out and bullied me using his reputation and post count and insulted me several times about unrelated things. I'm sorry that my responses put me on the same level as him in your eyes.

 

[epirali]

My wife loves to remind our kids that no electronic communication is guaranteed to stay private, so it behooves them to err on the side of politeness and civility. It is good advice for us all.

Great advice. We can extend that to politeness and civility online, electronic, in person, in real life, to friends, strangers, enemies and allies.

But alas some people seem to thrive on bullying behavior and respond out of fragile egos. The funny part is most of the time these same people would never behave that way in person.

 

[TonyWilliams]

...strangers, enemies and allies.

I'm not sure that the US Marine Corps agrees with your rationale :?

Quite the opposite, actually. The best defense is offense. You attack the enemy, not get pummeled by the enemy while you're politely exchanging pleasantries.

That's a bit different than "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" strategy. There's absolutely a place for that, but that ends when attacked.

Let me offer a scenario - you take your Nissan LEAF to the dealer for some repairs. The dealer says he will email you if they have any questions, or maybe to send you the bill.

You pop into the dealer weeks later to pick up the car, and the service advisor tells you that your car has been disabled because you didn't respond to their emails.

What do you do?

1) Exchange pleasantries and wish them a nice day

2) Something else...

 

[TonyWilliams]

In other related news, I have offered to buy the Toyota RAV4 EV forum from Mike.

If we are not able to reach an agreement, I will start a new website to continue our discussions anout that vehicle.

 

[epirali]

...strangers, enemies and allies.

I'm not sure that the US Marine Corps agrees with your rationale :?

Quite the opposite, actually. The best defense is offense. You attack the enemy, not get pummeled by the enemy while you're politely exchanging pleasantries.

That's a bit different than "keep your friends close and your enemies closer" strategy. There's absolutely a place for that, but that ends when attacked.

Let me offer a scenario - you take your Nissan LEAF to the dealer for some repairs. The dealer says he will email you if they have any questions, or maybe to send you the bill.

You pop into the dealer weeks later to pick up the car, and the service advisor tells you that your car has been disabled because you didn't respond to their emails.

What do you do?

1) Exchange pleasantries and wish them a nice day

2) Something else...

Well maybe that's the problem. Everyone now thinks they are all special, they are all part of a team/tribe, that everyone else is the enemy. This is not warfare and to in any way equate civil society with war is extremely dangerous, wrongheaded and probably explains the decline of the state of discourse in the US.

I manage to accomplish a great deal every day, including working out disagreements and legal battles (or issues with dealers) while remaining civil. Usually people who resort to name calling and yelling are doing it from a sense of lack of power. Real power does not require "something else." Most people I know in real positions of power (civilian and military) don't have to name call, be insulting or raise their voice to accomplish what they do.

But then again internet is a great place for people to enjoy a false sense of "power."

 

[TonyWilliams]

Well maybe that's the problem. Everyone now thinks they are all special, they are all part of a team/tribe

That has ALWAYS been the case, for as long as humans (and many other animals) have been around. You aren't going to change that concept.

...that everyone else is the enemy. This is not warfare and to in any way equate civil society with war is extremely dangerous, wrongheaded and probably explains the decline of the state of discourse in the US.

Nobody said everybody else was the enemy. Quite the opposite. The enemy for any person, group, tribe, country, etc, is a VERY SMALL subset of all humans.

... I manage to accomplish a great deal every day, including working out disagreements and legal battles (or issues with dealers) while remaining civil. Usually people who resort to name calling and yelling are doing it from a sense of lack of power. Real power does not require "something else." Most people I know in real positions of power (civilian and military) don't have to name call, be insulting or raise their voice to accomplish what they do.But then again internet is a great place for people to enjoy a false sense of "power."

You are welcome to your opinion, of course. I think it would be a mistake to suggest that somebody is in a diminished capacity or position by using fowl language. I certainly don't assume that somebody who never uses profanity (and I'm sure that there are folks who do not) has some advantage over me.

I'll just leave you with this quote by Lt. Gen. George Patton:

"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty. It may not sound nice to some bunch of little old ladies at an afternoon tea party, but it helps my soldiers to remember. You can’t run an army without profanity; and it has to be eloquent profanity. An army without profanity couldn’t fight its way out of a piss-soaked paper bag."

and the response from his men:

“We would have gone to hell for Patton because we knew he would have gone to hell for us. And he did.”

I'll also remind you that I am a former US Marine. I have a very strong sense of right and wrong, and freely attack that which I find to be wrong, not only against myself, but others as well. It's why I went to bat for Nissan LEAF owners in 2012, and we ended up with a 5 year / 60,000 miles battery degradation warranty. I had gotten rid of both my LEAFs prior to the new warranty even being available. I opted out of the class action settlement (and started the thread for that).

By the way, I took a lot of heat from several folks here, and elsewhere, for my actions in Sept 2012. I knew it was the right thing to do, and while it wasn't flattering for Nissan or EVs in general, it was the BEST thing for both in the end. I persisted, and will always persist. Yes, I made some enemies, and I wear those as badges of honor for the right result.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=10040

I'll never be the polite person cowering in a corner. I will never accept being attacked or wronged by anybody. I won't apologize for either.

 

[epirali]

Well maybe that's the problem. Everyone now thinks they are all special, they are all part of a team/tribe

That has ALWAYS been the case, for as long as humans (and many other animals) have been around. You aren't going to change that concept.

Well this is an EV forum so I am not going to engage in human psychology and evolution over time discussion here. But that concept has been changing for a long time now. The idea of a tribe as it was and what it means today are not at all the same.

Nobody said everybody else was the enemy. Quite the opposite. The enemy for any person, group, tribe, country, etc, is a VERY SMALL subset of all humans.

Well civil discourse and basic rules of civility are meant to allow people of good faith to disagree and continue a productive conversation. Name calling, personal attacks and demeaning other does not promote or allow that. It is a tactic used by those who do not have a strong position to shut down others. Sadly a lot of people cower when confronted with that kind of behavior, so it seems to reward people who use it in some situations.

You are welcome to your opinion, of course. I think it would be a mistake to suggest that somebody is in a diminished capacity or position by using fowl language. I certainly don't assume that somebody who never uses profanity (and I'm sure that there are folks who do not) has some advantage over me.

I'll just leave you with this quote by Lt. Gen. George Patton:

"When I want my men to remember something important, to really make it stick, I give it to them double dirty. It may not sound nice to some bunch of little old ladies at an afternoon tea party, but it helps my soldiers to remember. You can’t run an army without profanity; and it has to be eloquent profanity. An army without profanity couldn’t fight its way out of a piss-soaked paper bag."

and the response from his men:

“We would have gone to hell for Patton because we knew he would have gone to hell for us. And he did.”

Again it is my opinion that rules of warfare and rules of civil society are very different for very real reasons. So your example here applies to warfare and survival. This should NEVER be the case in public discussions.

I'll also remind you that I am a former US Marine. I have a very strong sense of right and wrong, and freely attack that which I find to be wrong, not only against myself, but others as well. It's why I went to bat for Nissan LEAF owners in 2012, and we ended up with a 5 year / 60,000 miles battery degradation warranty. I had gotten rid of both my LEAFs prior to the new warranty even being available. I opted out of the class action settlement (and started the thread for that).

I never served, but I share your exact sense of a very strong fair and unfair, right and wrong. And that is exactly why I believe that civil conversations are very important. When someone attacks others personally for a position they hold it offends my sense of right and wrong deeply. I rather people argue their positions and persuade rather than bully.

I also believe one can accomplish a great deal in taking strongly held positions and acting on them (as you say), but that does NOT equate to being uncivil.

I may have the same urge as you do to attack back, but I do not believe accomplishes anything. Anytime I allow the other to dictate my approach I have already lost the argument.

 

[TorC]

I'll also remind you that I am a former US Marine. I have a very strong sense of right and wrong, and freely attack that which I find to be wrong, not only against myself, but others as well.

That might be the main problem here. What your sense of right and wrong might not be correct. I have served for the Norwegian Marines, so I know the importance of what you are claiming when serving for the country. However as a civilian we have to think differently. Not all insults are attacks, and some attacks might be just a misunderstanding, and some attacks might be resolved without the use of force. And the US military force has a very different approach to "insults" than the rest of the world. As a US Marine you are trained in this policy, but you are now a civilian. Act like one.

I'll never be the polite person cowering in a corner. I will never accept being attacked or wronged by anybody. I won't apologize for either.

By the way, I took a lot of heat from several folks here, and elsewhere, for my actions in Sept 2012. I knew it was the right thing to do, and while it wasn't flattering for Nissan or EVs in general, it was the BEST thing for both in the end. I persisted, and will always persist. Yes, I made some enemies, and I wear those as badges of honor for the right result.

Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. That someone is disagreeing with you is not an attack on neither your business nor your person.

You have done a lot for the EV-community. And we are all very grateful for all you have done. You are however now actively tearing down your legacy and reputation. And I am very sorry to see that.

You and Mike needs to do a reality check. Mike runs a really crappy forum (have a look at the Norwegian forum to see how it should be done). You are acting like you have nothing left to live for if you are banned from the forum. So you both should try to do some serious thinking.

This conflict between the owner of the forum and the forums main contributor just makes this forum less interesting.

 

[Bob]

I don't know Mike. I don't know Tony. I don't know exactly what happened.

I do moderate another very popular forum. On that forum, this kind of open discussion about moderators and people would not be permitted. On the forum that I moderate, the rules are very strict - stay on topic, don't talk negatively about others. People have been warned and bounced from that forum for breaking this rule.

Regardless of what happened, I salute Mike for allowing this discussion and working this out. He has the power to squelch dissent and have his way, yet elected to take the high road. Thank you, Mike.

I also salute Tony for his contributions. Thank you, Tony.

Bob

 

[ElectricEddy]

I'll also remind you that I am a former US Marine. I have a very strong sense of right and wrong, and freely attack that which I find to be wrong, not only against myself, but others as well.

That might be the main problem here. What your sense of right and wrong might not be correct. I have served for the Norwegian Marines, so I know the importance of what you are claiming when serving for the country. However as a civilian we have to think differently. Not all insults are attacks, and some attacks might be just a misunderstanding, and some attacks might be resolved without the use of force. And the US military force has a very different approach to "insults" than the rest of the world. As a US Marine you are trained in this policy, but you are now a civilian. Act like one.

I'll never be the polite person cowering in a corner. I will never accept being attacked or wronged by anybody. I won't apologize for either.

By the way, I took a lot of heat from several folks here, and elsewhere, for my actions in Sept 2012. I knew it was the right thing to do, and while it wasn't flattering for Nissan or EVs in general, it was the BEST thing for both in the end. I persisted, and will always persist. Yes, I made some enemies, and I wear those as badges of honor for the right result.

Sometimes you just have to agree to disagree. That someone is disagreeing with you is not an attack on neither your business nor your person.

You have done a lot for the EV-community. And we are all very grateful for all you have done. You are however now actively tearing down your legacy and reputation. And I am very sorry to see that.

You and Mike needs to do a reality check. Mike runs a really crappy forum (have a look at the Norwegian forum to see how it should be done). You are acting like you have nothing left to live for if you are banned from the forum. So you both should try to do some serious thinking.

This conflict between the owner of the forum and the forums main contributor just makes this forum less interesting.

TorC...
I tried to find that Norwegian forum with no luck, can you paste a link please?
Thanks

 

[TorC]

TorC...
I tried to find that Norwegian forum with no luck, can you paste a link please?
Thanks

elbilforum.no



This is a forum for all EVs, and with sub categories for each type. It is in Norwegian, post made in English will be answered in English.
All members have the same privileges no matter how much they pay. Vendors do not get special treatment. Most QC-providers and accessories vendor have a profile. No limits on how many PMs you can store. A lot easier to "follow" a subject without having to subscribe. And sub forums for subjects like solar, batteries, etc.