Poll : What is your reason for going Electric ?

[willk55]

I'm glad to see I'm not the only geek :lol: . I feel as excited about my Leaf as when I bought my first computer (a 286 with a 40 mb hard drive).

 

[TomT]

+1!

As far as performance goes, I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks this car has exciting performance has never really driven a truly fast and capable car. It's comfortable and quiet, but it's still a FWD econobox at heart.

 

[Drivesolo]

+1!

As far as performance goes, I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks this car has exciting performance has never really driven a truly fast and capable car. It's comfortable and quiet, but it's still a FWD econobox at heart.

+1

I've learned to bite my tongue whenever it comes to replying to someone on this forum after they call the Leaf fast. I'm glad someone said it first to set the record straight. Sorry, it's not fast at all. A very smooth ride; yes, but I can't believe anyone would buy a Leaf because they felt it was quick unless their definition is limited to speeds under 30mph.

 

[evnow]

As far as performance goes, I'm sorry, but anyone who thinks this car has exciting performance has never really driven a truly fast and capable car. It's comfortable and quiet, but it's still a FWD econobox at heart.

performance <> speed.

In anycase, I'm talking about EVs in general (would include Roadster, for eg.).

 

[ttweed]

performance <> speed.

Really? Which aspects of exciting vehicle performance do not involve speed? There are certainly some parameters of performance like efficiency, comfort, load-carrying capacity, "green-ness" (or low environmental impact), ease of operation, etc., at which the Leaf excels, but only a geek can get excited about those aspects, and it is an intellectual excitement, not the kind of visceral, goosebump-raising, hair-on-fire, pit-of-the stomach, hand-of-God dose of physical excitement that a truly high-performance car can deliver to a driver. All of those aspects involve speed--the ability to change the rate of speed very rapidly, both in acceleration and braking, the ability to enter a turn at high speed and carry it all the way through a corner, then accelerate out of it at a high rate, being able to change direction quickly and repeatedly at high speed and maintain control of the car--these are the kinds of experiences that create the adrenaline rush of performance driving that the Leaf lacks. Granted, the Leaf can allow an unskilled driver to get off the line and up to 30 miles an hour faster than your average minivan, but if that = excitement to you, you have led a sheltered life.

In anycase, I'm talking about EVs in general (would include Roadster, for eg.).

Oh, I thought this was a Leaf forum and I was responding to people who had stated they found their Leaf's performance exciting. If you want to expand the argument to the Tesla roadster, I have driven one of those and they are indeed a much higher performance vehicle than the Leaf, and can offer some exciting performance. But in the overall scheme of performance cars, they are about the equal of a Porsche Boxster S, which can be had for half the $$$ (ignoring the additional intellectual excitement driving a "green" technological marvel might bring).

TT

 

[WetEV]

performance <> speed.

Really? Which aspects of exciting vehicle performance do not involve speed?

Quickness. Compare with an Audi A4 with a second of turbo lag. Sure, the Audi wins everything but that first second. And sometimes you really want that first second.

As a package, the Leaf isn't exactly exciting. Way more fun around town when compared with the standard automatic econobox, yes, but that is a very low bar. Less so on the freeway.

 

[adric22]

At under 30 mph, I think the Leaf is just about as fast as anything out there short of high-end performance cars. In fact, on many occasions I have lost traction when flooring it around 10 to 20 mph. And the responsiveness is what makes it great. If the Leaf has as much power over 30 mph as it does under, it would definitely qualify as a "fast" car.

Its interesting to note that while the environmental buyer seems to be the single largest (barely) group of the poll, it still only accounts for 30% of Leaf sales. Which means the other 70% of buyers are buying the car for something other than environmental benefits. That's why I'm so glad Nissan has gotten that message and tried to move away from it. I firmly believe, moving forward, that number will continue to drop. As more and more mainstream buyers purchase an EV, I expect that percentage to drop to less than 10%. I'm curious if there are similar polls around on PriusChat. I should go look over there. The Prius is still heavily advertised to the environmental crowd. But I honestly believe Toyota sells a lot of Priuses despite the ads, not because of them.

 

[Nubo]

There are certainly some parameters of performance like efficiency, comfort, load-carrying capacity, "green-ness" (or low environmental impact), ease of operation, etc., at which the Leaf excels, but only a geek can get excited about those aspects

Why only a "geek"? These are important and desirable traits for lots of folks.

... not the kind of visceral, goosebump-raising, hair-on-fire, pit-of-the stomach, hand-of-God dose of physical excitement that a truly high-performance car can deliver to a driver. All of those aspects involve speed--the ability to change the rate of speed very rapidly, both in acceleration and braking, the ability to enter a turn at high speed and carry it all the way through a corner, then accelerate out of it at a high rate, being able to change direction quickly and repeatedly at high speed and maintain control of the car--these are the kinds of experiences that create the adrenaline rush of performance driving that the Leaf lacks. Granted, the Leaf can allow an unskilled driver to get off the line and up to 30 miles an hour faster than your average minivan, but if that = excitement to you, you have led a sheltered life.

I understand where you're coming from. But I don't think many folks are under the illusion that LEAF is a sports car. But many of those capabilities often only come into play on a track, or when driving illegally or recklessly. In real-world sane driving, the ability to squirt easily in slow-and-go traffic is a much more practical application of performance, and LEAF does have it. And it's much easier and more pleasant to summon than with most ICE cars.

My last car was an RX-8, so handling is like night and day, and the '8 would blow the doors off LEAF in many performance categories. I liked that car's performance. But truth be told, it was a pain in the ass in traffic.

Yes, it could squirt, but that meant downshifting and applying 5,6,7000 rpm, then upshifting to carry on -- the clutching and roar may have been "visceral" but in a traffic jam after 100 iterations, also annoying, really. The instant response of the LEAF does that job without batting an eyelash. I think it's the lack of visceral disturbances that tend to make that performance bit seem even more remarkable. Kind of like a magic carpet.

I'll be interested to see when/if Nissan does come out with a Performance EV at a reasonable price.

 

[ttweed]

Really? Which aspects of exciting vehicle performance do not involve speed?

Quickness. Compare with an Audi A4 with a second of turbo lag. Sure, the Audi wins everything but that first second. And sometimes you really want that first second.

"Quickness" has several meanings to me in defining vehicle performance, but your example appears to address this quality only in initial launch or "off-the-line" performance. Although I would include vehicle response to all driver inputs (including steering) in overall "quickness" of a car, even limiting it to straight-line standing starts only, per your example, quickness still involves speed--it is the rate at which the car can add speed over time (accelerate), which is a function of weight, power, grip, and driver skill.

Given unskilled drivers in your scenario, it may be true that the Leaf has an advantage from a standing start, since Nissan engineers have programmed the torque ramp-up of the electric motor to match available traction in a straight line nearly perfectly, and anybody (or their mother) can floor the car off the line and achieve a good launch consistently, utilizing the maximum 207 lbs.-ft. available. But you should not confuse the simplicity of extracting the maximum performance from the car with its ultimate potential. The Leaf's advantage disappears given a skilled driver in the Audi. There is no reason that turbo lag has to slow down the Audi if the driver keeps the engine in the power band (on boost) and feathers the clutch perfectly to apply all available power to the ground without breaking traction limits and spinning the tires wastefully. With 258 lbs.-ft. of torque coming as low as 1,500 rpm, wider tires, and only 100 lbs. more weight, simple physics gives the advantage to the well-driven A4. Even to 60 feet, it should dust the Leaf--there is no reason it would give up a second from a standing start unless the driver makes a mistake. Because it is easier to launch doesn't make the Leaf any "quicker," ultimately.

TT

 

[ttweed]

There are certainly some parameters of performance like efficiency, comfort, load-carrying capacity, "green-ness" (or low environmental impact), ease of operation, etc., at which the Leaf excels, but only a geek can get excited about those aspects

Why only a "geek"? These are important and desirable traits for lots of folks.

Yes, important and desirable, but not "exciting" from a driving standpoint, IMHO, except intellectually, as I wrote. Being a "geek" to me means leaning toward the intellectual aspects of experience--no slight intended. I am at least half-geek myself, and appreciate those aspects of the Leaf as a basic transportation device.

I don't think many folks are under the illusion that LEAF is a sports car.

Maybe you haven't read all the threads on "modding" the Leaf to make it faster and handle better here? "Lipstick on a pig" comes to mind.

But many of those capabilities often only come into play on a track, or when driving illegally or recklessly. In real-world sane driving, the ability to squirt easily in slow-and-go traffic is a much more practical application of performance, and LEAF does have it. And it's much easier and more pleasant to summon than with most ICE cars.

Yes, performance driving is best practiced on a track, but it can come into play in normal driving experiences as well, without being either reckless or illegal. A brisk tour of a twisty mountain road comes to mind, as does passing a semi on a straight, two-lane country road while contending with oncoming traffic, or avoiding an accident with a swift lane-change maneuver. "Slow and go" traffic is obviously not a situation where those would apply, and the Leaf is indeed extremely practical and capable in that application. But the "squirt" you speak of is fairly well diluted at speeds over 50 mph in the Leaf, which are commonplace in freeway driving, and in my opinion is no more remarkable or "easier and more pleasant to summon" than in any of the myriad high-powered ICE luxo-barges on the freeway.

Yes, it could squirt, but that meant downshifting and applying 5,6,7000 rpm, then upshifting to carry on -- the clutching and roar may have been "visceral" but in a traffic jam after 100 iterations, also annoying, really.

Not sure how or why it would be necessary to be downshifting and going to 7,000RPM and upshifting 100 times in a traffic jam, but whatever. Some people might even consider that a good opportunity to practice their heel-and-toe rev-matching technique. Having an automatic transmission might be a high priority if you find shifting annoying.

I think it's the lack of visceral disturbances that tend to make that performance bit seem even more remarkable. Kind of like a magic carpet.

That may make it a remarkable, unique and even a soothing experience, but exciting? Not for me. My original response was aimed more at the poster who said "I was manuvering in traffic on the highway the other day and happened to look down and see that I was at 93 mph, and I didn't even feel it, it's a wild ride!" "Not feeling it" and "wild" seem to be contradictory descriptions to me--and 93 mph is perhaps 8 mph over the average speed in the fast lane on our freeways here (and only 2 mph under the Leaf's top speed, so it ain't getting much wilder!) I sometimes wonder if the silence, smoothness, and general lack of the visceral "sound and fury" that is ingrained in our perception of motorsports will ever allow EV racing to attract a fan base. I guess time will tell....

TT

 

[evnow]

performance <> speed.

Really? Which aspects of exciting vehicle performance do not involve speed?

Lack of noise, vibration & harshness for eg.

 

[Drivesolo]

Really? Which aspects of exciting vehicle performance do not involve speed?

Lack of noise, vibration & harshness for eg.

:shock: ...what the...??? Really? C'mon... really???

 

[evnow]

:shock: ...what the...??? Really? C'mon... really???

Hmmm ... why exactly are you shocked ?

 

[Drivesolo]

:shock: ...what the...??? Really? C'mon... really???

Hmmm ... why exactly are you shocked ?

Look... I'd rather not get pulled into this cuz I've been on this forum long enough to know that anything to do with performance really seems to be a misunderstood by some who frequent this forum. The same goes for the performance abilities of the Leaf itself, somehow it is the God-send in performance, even some posts warning to be careful because it is almost too fast to drive.

Here's why your statement shocks me (understand that I mean no disrespect nor am I trying in anyway to offend); taking my own opinion and understanding out of the argument, consider this: in all the automotive publications that review cars that exist, printed or digital, how many actually rank noise, vibration & harshness as performance metrics? Now I can't say that I am familiar w/ all the world's automotive publications that review cars but I'm familiar w/ a few and I can tell you that those attributes aren't considered as performance attributes that they account for. Maybe something like the RTI (ramp travel index) of a vehicle is more important because I have seen that in some publications as well as approach and departure angles ranked under performance. But I have never seen noise, vibration and/ or harshness as a performance metric. Cabin decibel levels are measured at times, but they are never classified under performance. Maybe they're all wrong?

If you or others would like to create your own attributes of vehicle performance, that's perfectly fine, more power to ya. But as far as what is generally considered "performance" those attributes do not fall under them.

 

[Nubo]

Given unskilled drivers in your scenario, it may be true that the Leaf has an advantage from a standing start, since Nissan engineers have programmed the torque ramp-up of the electric motor to match available traction in a straight line nearly perfectly, and anybody (or their mother) can floor the car off the line and achieve a good launch consistently, utilizing the maximum 207 lbs.-ft. available. But you should not confuse the simplicity of extracting the maximum performance from the car with its ultimate potential. The Leaf's advantage disappears given a skilled driver in the Audi. There is no reason that turbo lag has to slow down the Audi if the driver keeps the engine in the power band (on boost) and feathers the clutch perfectly to apply all available power to the ground without breaking traction limits and spinning the tires wastefully. With 258 lbs.-ft. of torque coming as low as 1,500 rpm, wider tires, and only 100 lbs. more weight, simple physics gives the advantage to the well-driven A4. Even to 60 feet, it should dust the Leaf--there is no reason it would give up a second from a standing start unless the driver makes a mistake. Because it is easier to launch doesn't make the Leaf any "quicker," ultimately.

Lots of good points and certainly in terms of ultimate capability, there are lots of ICE cars that will outperform in every way.

BUT, this is also a good illustration of the differences, and some might say advantages of the EV.

You describe what automotive enthusiasts have come to regard as admirable skills and people enjoy practicing them. But how much of it is innately enjoyable vs. an adaptation to Victorian-era mechanical quirks?

The driver of the IC (suck-squeeze-bang-fart) engine, has to:
sit at the light and keep the revs up, burning even more gasoline
put the car in gear, and keep the clutch in
then, as the light turns green has to engage in a touchy and complex interplay between
clutch friction
clutch destruction
tire adhesion
melted rubber
engine revs vs. the powerband...
engine destruction
Would it be more enjoyable if we added manual control of the timing advance? once also a necessary skill.
Better yet, let's have an mechanic along to oil the valves :lol:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riding_mechanic" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Meanwhile, the LEAF driver sits barely using energy, and no efforts, until the light changes, and then proceeds smartly if the mood or circumstances suit it, by engaging the magic carpet.

Now, it might be interesting to think of making the choice between these two models, had it been presented to us, lets say, 150 years ago.

Would I have opted for the finicky, complex, and wasteful ICE vehicle with it's performance advantages if operated superbly, or would I have been more interested in the car that just worked, without all the noise and palaver? I think it's a good question. The EV of 1913 did "die", but today's EV are a whole new ballgame.

And, keep in mind that the ultimate performance of EVs will continue to improve. ICE vehicle technology has had over 100 years and trillions of dollars of R&D to evolve to where it is. The improvement curve of EVs is going to be much steeper than ICE vehicles for many years to come. Ultimately, EVs, I believe, will be unquestionably superior in performance in almost every way. Many will miss the Thunder, but there will still be a place for skill. But the skill will be directed towards driving, and not the management of rambunctious mechanicals.

 

[Nubo]

Not sure how or why it would be necessary to be downshifting and going to 7,000RPM and upshifting 100 times in a traffic jam, but whatever. Some people might even consider that a good opportunity to practice their heel-and-toe rev-matching technique. Having an automatic transmission might be a high priority if you find shifting annoying.

The RX-8 redline was about 9500 rpm, rotary Wankel engine. You really had to work it to get the horsepower.

This WAS really enjoyable, in certain contexts such as the twisty mountain roads you describe. But in more usual, mundane conditions it was a hassle. No, didn't always have to gun it but shifting was frequent.

Now, I wouldn't have chosen an automatic version of that car, because it did destroy the charm of working through the gears to extract performance. I did enjoy that aspect. But now looking back it really very rarely came into play in normal driving. I'm not surrounded by twisty mountain roads, though there are some. They're just not on my regular routes.

I never did like automatic transmissions and the car deciding the shiftpoints for me.

I was quite surprised at how much I came to like the LEAF's single-speed design. To me it's not the equivalent of the auto gearbox. It transcends the whole concept. Shifts aren't needed, so you don't need a gearbox, be it manual or automatic. To me, that is engineering elegance and I don't miss the gearbox at all. I quite like not needing one. The gearbox was an adaptation to a deficiency, not an end in itself.

 

[evnow]

If you or others would like to create your own attributes of vehicle performance, that's perfectly fine, more power to ya. But as far as what is generally considered "performance" those attributes do not fall under them.

Because, the traditional publications have looked only at "traditional" vehicles. They are a very, very, very tiny portion of the automobile owning population.

ps : I guess, you want to use it as a "jargon" and I want to use it as a general English word.

 

[TimLee]

I was quite surprised at how much I came to like the LEAF's single-speed design. To me it's not the equivalent of the auto gearbox. It transcends the whole concept. Shifts aren't needed, so you don't need a gearbox, be it manual or automatic. To me, that is engineering elegance and I don't miss the gearbox at all. I quite like not needing one. The gearbox was an adaptation to a deficiency, not an end in itself.

+1 on all of Nubo's comments.
My other ICE vehicle is a 2009 Altima with 4 cylinder engine and automatic CVT transmission. Although it might be able to match the 2011 LEAF acceleration to 30 mph, to do it you would have to be sitting with your foot firmly on the brake and raise the engine rpm to around 3000 rpm before take off, and slam the accelerator to the floor the moment you released the brake. This would cost you about 1/3 gallon of gasoline wasted, $1.50, and a lot of noise.
In the LEAF, rapid acceleration to 30 mph doesn't cost much of anything, and is smooth and quiet.
That is better performance.
When I occasionally have to drive the 2009 Altima, its overall performance compared to the 2011 LEAF is disgusting.
Although I haven't driven a Tesla S, from everything I have read it is the overall best performance 4 door sedan in the world.
Its only shortcoming is range.
But with the 85 kWh pack, it does go way over 200 miles.
How often do you drive more than 200 miles in a day?
When you do, drive something else. If you can afford a Tesla S and it works for 98% of your driving, I'm sure you can afford to rent something else when you need to drive further.

 

[ttweed]

Hmmm ... why exactly are you shocked ?

Because of your apparent belief that "lack of noise, vibration & harshness" are "exciting" aspects of vehicle performance, perhaps? Or are you just ignoring that adjective in the statement of mine you quoted?

All driving requires some level of noise, vibration & harshness, even in an EV. The road/wind/tire noise and vibration at speed is inescapable, regardless of the motive power. Many ICE cars are engineered for comfort through noise, vibration and harshness reduction techniques in insulation/soundproofing/suspension design, but those measures usually result in lower performance cars, not higher. The Leaf happens to achieve these noise reduction goals through a different method (eliminating the ICE drivetrain) which is very efficient but actually introduces new high frequency noise from the EV drive system that some find disturbing and annoying.

Do you also think that Muzak is the epitome of the musical genre? Soothing blandness is not exciting to me. I don't consider quietness the benchmark for excitement in vehicle performance, either.

YMMV,
TT

 

[edatoakrun]

...I'm not surrounded by twisty mountain roads, though there are some. They're just not on my regular routes.

I never did like automatic transmissions and the car deciding the shiftpoints for me.

I was quite surprised at how much I came to like the LEAF's single-speed design. To me it's not the equivalent of the auto gearbox. It transcends the whole concept. Shifts aren't needed, so you don't need a gearbox, be it manual or automatic. To me, that is engineering elegance and I don't miss the gearbox at all. I quite like not needing one. The gearbox was an adaptation to a deficiency, not an end in itself.

I am "surrounded by twisty mountain roads", and they are a major reason why I chose to live where I do.

Other than ~nine very disappointing months driving a Corolla, I have had a MT in every daily driver I have owned over 35 years, as the benefits of a MT over an automatic were very significant.

And I was dreading the future, when it might become difficult to get a MT in the ICEV vehicle of my choice.

Before I got my LEAF, I would never have believed how little I would miss having to shift.

When I drive a MT now, I fell a little nostalgia, probably not unlike that felt by the old teamster, about a hundred years ago, when he got out of his truck, got a whiff of horse manure, and remembered his previous drive.

I have a collection of antique ICEVs, and they all (except for the two 4 wd trucks) have four, five, or 4 + overdrive speed transmissions. But no way I ever want to have a daily driver with such a narrow power band that I actually need a MT, ever again.