PHEV drivers. Generally, pretty obnoxious

[cwerdna]

There's also the potential that someone walks into a Toyota dealer and says "I hear there are special vehicles that get low emissions that get an HOV sticker." They then walk out the owner of a new PIP with a salesperson saying "oh you don't have to plug it in". They think they're doing the right thing and getting a perk for it. If they traded in a gas guzzler they're actually doing more than a lot of us here who came to the leaf from an already fuel efficient car like the insight or prius. Fueleconomy.gov 15000 miles a year a 2008 Tahoe V8 20.8 barrels of oil a year. 2008 Chrysler 300 v6 18.3. Non plug in gen iii prius 6.6, plug in 4.7.

Neither of those 2 things makes a person "obnoxious".

Yep. And from the Energy and Environment tab of http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=24713&id=35556&id=35598&#tab2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, the amount of tailpipe greenhouse gas emissions per year from the above 15K miles/year would be 9.2 tons, 2.9 tons and 2.2 tons, respectively (Tahoe, non-plugin Prius, PiP), as a result of burning less fuel. Burning each gallon of gasoline results in 19.4 pounds of CO2 emissions (http://web.archive.org/web/20110427044311/http://www.epa.gov/oms/climate/420f05001.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

 

[TomT]

I still contend that any PHEV that has less than 30 miles of electric only range should not be allowed a HOV sticker.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I still contend that any PHEV that has less than 30 miles of electric only range should not be allowed a HOV sticker.

Or to park in charge station spots for 4-8 hours as they so often do.

 

[TomT]

+1!

I still contend that any PHEV that has less than 30 miles of electric only range should not be allowed a HOV sticker.

Or to park in charge station spots for 4-8 hours as they so often do.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

currently running polls at various sites and its running between 16.2 and 18.8% of people who do not plug in at every opportunity including people who plug in "occasionally or rarely at home"

That's fairly low, and indicative of normal human behavior, if I read that sentence correctly. Although not plugging in "at every opportunity" is too strict a standard. Almost no one meets that one.

actually the percentage I mentioned above ONLY reflects people who do not plug in every night when at home along with people who never plug in (only one of them so far)

 

[LeftieBiker]

Right, so this issue isn't really much of an issue at all.

 

[RonDawg]

Or to park in charge station spots for 4-8 hours as they so often do.

That's why I don't like free public charging. This is where I see the most egregious "charging hog" behavior, since there's no incentive to unplug when you are finished.

If places are going to offer free public charging, it should only be for an hour, 2 max, with the pricing going up significantly afterward.

I've seen complaints about many Blink and Chargepoint stations charging 49 cents/kWH as being excessive, but 90+% of the time I never have to wait to use these.

 

[minispeed]

I still contend that any PHEV that has less than 30 miles of electric only range should not be allowed a HOV sticker.

Then the beef is with the regulating body that gives them out, not with the drivers. To say a driver is obnoxious (original post not your quote I know) because they followed the rule that you don't like is not really treating the PIP driver fair.

However right now it may be frustrating for you as a leaf owner to see that spot taken but for the last few years for business owners or governments that invested in that spot the use of it by every car including PIPs justifies the investment they made and makes a strong case for them to continue to build more. Without 36000 PIPs out there who's to say that that spot you wanted would have been installed in the first place? When you bring in the Volt and Ford PHEV there are far more of them than BEV. What sounds better for blink/chargepoint/any other company when they go make the sales pitch to install these, we have 180,000 potential customers (volt+PIP+leaf) or we have 69000 (just leaf)?

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10/toyota-prius-plug-in-sales-figures.html

*warning this is going to sound pretty preachy, I'm not trying to preach just present a similar argument people could make about most of us*
We all drive a $30,000 plus vehicle, most of us live in North America, most of us in the US made enough to make use of a $7500 tax credit or leased knowing that in 3 to 4 years we've spent $200+ a month and don't own anything. Then some of us complain about others using a public free or paid service with a car that doesn't need it when our car "needs it" and we don't want to wait around for them to move. Yet there are millions in this world with the need for food that none of us have ever experienced and very few of us are doing anything about it for them. The majority of us are overweight and those who are not are probably a healthy weight and are very rarely underweight without a medical condition being the cause. Even in our own backyard there are hundreds of thousands that don't always get enough to eat, many of them are children. Because of our social status and income we want the convince of rolling up to pretty much anyplace we choose and ordering as much food as we want. We don't ever want to be hungry so we expect to be able to get at least a little bit more than we want to ensure that we are satisfied. We've bought into a car that makes us hungry for energy, it's not always there, we are now the energy poor and we are looking at those who have an endless affordable supply of their own that are now trying to tap into our source and we are getting upset about it. The big difference is those people with their endless affordable supply are actually doing this planet good by taping into our slow, limited energy supply, as a collective that lives on this earth we shouldn't be mad at them we should be glad that they are doing it and we should be optimistic that by doing it they are supporting the growth of plug ins and probably subconsciously preparing themselves for a transition to full BEV with the next car that they weren't ready for with this one.

 

[minispeed]

I still contend that any PHEV that has less than 30 miles of electric only range should not be allowed a HOV sticker.

Then the beef is with the regulating body that gives them out, not with the drivers. To say a driver is obnoxious (original post not your quote I know) because they followed the rule that you don't like is not really treating the PIP driver fair.

Or to park in charge station spots for 4-8 hours as they so often do.

Right now it may be frustrating for you as a leaf owner to see that spot taken but for the last few years for business owners or governments invested in that spot for the use of it by every car including PIPs. Every use justifies the investment they made and makes a strong case for them to continue to build more. Without 36000 PIPs out there who's to say that that spot you wanted would have been installed in the first place? When you bring in the Volt and Ford PHEV there are far more of them than BEV. What sounds better for blink/chargepoint/any other company when they go make the sales pitch to install these, we have 180,000 potential customers (volt+PIP+leaf) or we have 69000 (just leaf)?

http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2012/10/toyota-prius-plug-in-sales-figures.html

*warning this is going to sound pretty preachy, I'm not trying to preach just present a similar argument people could make about most of us*
We all drive a $30,000 plus vehicle, most of us live in North America, most of us in the US made enough to make use of a $7500 tax credit or leased knowing that in 3 to 4 years we've spent $200+ a month and don't own anything. Then some of us complain about others using a public free or paid service with a car that doesn't need it when our car "needs it" and we don't want to wait around for them to move. Yet there are millions in this world with the need for food that none of us have ever experienced and very few of us are doing anything about it for them. The majority of us are overweight, those who are not are probably a healthy weight and we are very rarely underweight without a medical condition being the cause. Even in our own backyard there are hundreds of thousands that don't always get enough to eat, many of them are children. Because of our social status and income we want to be able to roll up to pretty much anyplace we choose and order as much food as we want. We don't ever want to be hungry so we expect to be able to get at least a little bit more than we want to ensure that we are satisfied. We've bought into a car that makes us hungry for energy, it's not always there, we are now the energy poor and we are looking at those who have an endless affordable supply of their own that are now trying to tap into our source and we are getting upset about it. The big difference is those people with their endless affordable supply are actually doing this planet good by taping into our slow, limited energy supply, as a collective that lives on this earth we shouldn't be mad at them we should be glad that they are doing it and we should be optimistic that by doing it they are supporting the growth of plug ins and probably subconsciously preparing themselves for a transition to full BEV with the next car that they weren't ready for with this one.

 

[adric22]

Right now it may be frustrating for you as a leaf owner to see that spot taken but for the last few years for business owners or governments invested in that spot for the use of it by every car including PIPs. Every use justifies the investment they made and makes a strong case for them to continue to build more. Without 36000 PIPs out there who's to say that that spot you wanted would have been installed in the first place? When you bring in the Volt and Ford PHEV there are far more of them than BEV. What sounds better for blink/chargepoint/any other company when they go make the sales pitch to install these, we have 180,000 potential customers (volt+PIP+leaf) or we have 69000 (just leaf)?

Agree, agree, agree! And I might add one more important thing. A lot of the general public does not know the difference between an EV and a PHEV. But they do understand seeing a car plugged into an EVSE is some form of electric car. The more they see it, the more mainstream it looks. And the more it looks mainstream, the more likely they are to look into a plug-in car themselves.

 

[TimLee]

Then the beef is with the regulating body that gives them out, not with the drivers. To say a driver is obnoxious (original post not your quote I know) because they followed the rule that you don't like is not really treating the PIP driver fair.
...

Agree with most of your post minispeed, even if a bit preachy
As usual in your six months here very thoughtful.
Commend your commitment to cleaner driving.
At $437 per month for four years it is costing you a lot more than most in US.
Why is US the only place in the world that Nissan sells LEAF at a reasonable price :?:

Back on topic:
I would point out that the OP Mike's complaint was HOV lane behaviour.
Somehow the discussion morphed into complaints about occupying charging stations.
I agree that anyone that can plug in should.
Hope that when I can afford to replace my non-hybrid 2009 Altima ( would have been hybrid but they only sold in a few states), that there will be many more plug ins with significant all electric range.

But no one whether all electric or plug in should be sitting in a charging spot for any significant amount of time without charging.

And you are correct that most of the HOV lane complaints should be directed at the authorities regulating them.
They are making a complete mess and accomplishing very little good.

 

[minispeed]

Then the beef is with the regulating body that gives them out, not with the drivers. To say a driver is obnoxious (original post not your quote I know) because they followed the rule that you don't like is not really treating the PIP driver fair.
...

Agree with most of your post minispeed, even if a bit preachy
As usual in your six months here very thoughtful.
Commend your commitment to cleaner driving.
At $437 per month for four years it is costing you a lot more than most in US.
Why is US the only place in the world that Nissan sells LEAF at a reasonable price :?:

Back on topic:
I would point out that the OP Mike's complaint was HOV lane behaviour.
Somehow the discussion morphed into complaints about occupying charging stations.
I agree that anyone that can plug in should.
Hope that when I can afford to replace my non-hybrid 2009 Altima ( would have been hybrid but they only sold in a few states), that there will be many more plug ins with significant all electric range.

But no one whether all electric or plug in should be sitting in a charging spot for any significant amount of time without charging.

And you are correct that most of the HOV lane complaints should be directed at the authorities regulating them.
They are making a complete mess and accomplishing very little good.

In Canada most of our vehicles tend to follow what's offered in the US. The exceptions to those tend to be euro hatch backs that don't make it to the US. There are very very few cars that are Canadian only. The only one I can think of was the Acura 1.6/1.7EL/CSZ (re-badged civic, was about 51% of Canadian Acura sales so it justifies itself). Others that are non-US euro/Asian imports are the Benz B (but we don't get the electric), Nissan Mirca (the versa sedan got dropped when we got that), Chevrolet Orlando (Mazda 5ish, and the Chevy offers a stick shift in a 7 seater!) and the previous gen smart diesel.

Our export economy also makes a lot of cars for the US so I would say the government doesn't want to make their own standards and just accepts that we will get what the US gets. If we create a CAFE style system or fines from the EPA for not meeting an average we would limit the choice available to consumers at our dealers. Since we have allowed US standards to be accepted on par for 2nd hand import purposes if we had those averages and they just cut the non fuel efficient vehicles they would still come across as imports from the US and then a US dealer/car maker would make money instead of the Canadian arm of the same company. Our top selling cars (trucks still rule just like the US) are all smaller, if you look at US numbers for a midsize and compact we tend to sell the inverse. The Camry, accord, fusion, and optima all make the top 20 but are all outsold by the smaller corolla, civic (#1), focus and rio. It's not uncommon to see a million dollar home with a civic and a corolla in the driveway around here so our averages are already a bit better to start with. So come any given year we'll get all the same choice as your CAFE standards will force upon you and our natural tastes for cars will make most people pick the better options so why bother in spending money and time in administering and enforcing a program where the auto makers have to ensure a certain average?

The incentives that we have got have been from the Provincial governments and then only 3 of them did. BC is now done, Ontario is $8500 ($7522 in the real world since it's an after tax credit) and Quebec is around the same. In Ontario the big push is in clean energy and air quality, possibly an off use grid balance too. Our hydro is government run and they spent a ton to get rid of coal and was (still may be) paying $0.80 / kWh for solar fed back into the grid (vs. charging $0.07-$0.14) on 20 year contracts. There were high prices paid to land owners for wind installations too. We also spend a ton paying US states to burn off our after hour energy although I haven't read about that in a while so not sure if it really is as bad as they warned when shutting down coal.

Considering most ICE lease rates here are about $50-100 a month more than a US rate (numbers only not converted US/CDN value) and our gas is more (was almost $5 CDN a gal but is at $3.50 now) the leaf is still a good bargain when compared to anything in it's size/class. Cost of ownership just payments and energy is on par with what my 5 year Optima finance was and maybe a smudge cheaper than the Prius but if they both last 10 years the Leaf will come out on top.


Back to the HOV lane behaviour and the first post.

Isn't the PIP also the cheapest way into the HOV lane? So would it not be fair to at least consider that the type of person who wants to buy into the HOV lane is affected differently than most people by traffic and is less able to handle the stress? Everyone has different reasons to get where they are going which will either increase or decrease the stress and everyone deals with stress differently. There are many people you could send to the army and say "here's a gun, if anything happens fight it out" that deal with it fine but then can't just sit and wait in traffic. If they are so unable to deal with traffic stress that they are willing to buy a new car then they would most likely choose the cheaper option and hence those people appear to you to be obnoxious. Also since it is the cheapest car the type of person that is able to afford it is more likely to be lower rank at work than say an ELR, Accord Plug in, Fusion or even the Volt. It is common that the more money you make the less you are paid for your time and you are paid for your work and being late because of traffic doesn't produce the same kind of stress. The boss in the Tesla P85D can come in when they get in LOL.

However you're making a very generalized statement about a group of people from your very limited perspective. After all you're in the HOV lane too right? You're also going slow to conserve energy so someone who is going the same speed as you wouldn't pass you and you wouldn't pass them so you won't see them. I noticed a similar effect when I started driving slow. I drive home late, I used to pick off drunk drivers all the time when I went 40% over the speed limit, I passed a ton of cars, my sampling of cars on the road was pretty large. Then I started going the speed limit, haven't seen a drunk driver in over a year. You wouldn't notice a PIP driver if they merge on for 1 or 2 exits and decide that it's not worth the risk/time to move all the way over then all the way back. Anyone who does anything non obnoxious won't show up on your radar because you're looking for obnoxious.

 

[TimLee]

Back to the HOV lane behaviour and the first post.
...
However you're making a very generalized statement about a group of people from your very limited perspective. After all you're in the HOV lane too right?

Chattanooga has no HOV lanes.
I have only driven in an HOV lane once or twice in Nashville when there were two or more people in the vehicle.

My only concurrence was about bad driving, particularly tail gating.

Is a very broad generalization to just call out PIP drivers.
Many poor drivers in all vehicle types.

 

[minispeed]

Back to the HOV lane behaviour and the first post.
...
However you're making a very generalized statement about a group of people from your very limited perspective. After all you're in the HOV lane too right?

Chattanooga has no HOV lanes.
I have only driven in an HOV lane once or twice in Nashville when there were two or more people in the vehicle.

My only concurrence was about bad driving, particularly tail gating.

Is a very broad generalization to just call out PIP drivers.
Many poor drivers in all vehicle types.

Sorry Tim that comment wasn't directed to you, but more to the people making/supporting the original comment of obnoxious behaviour.

 

[EVDRIVER]

I still contend that any PHEV that has less than 30 miles of electric only range should not be allowed a HOV sticker.

Then the beef is with the regulating body that gives them out, not with the drivers. To say a driver is obnoxious (original post not your quote I know) because they followed the rule that you don't like is not really treating the PIP driver fair.

Or to park in charge station spots for 4-8 hours as they so often do.

Right now it may be frustrating for you as a leaf owner to see that spot taken but for the last few years for business owners or governments invested in that spot for the use of it by every car including PIPs. Every use justifies the investment they made and makes a strong case for them to continue to build more.

Not really. In many places in the Bay Area I see PIPs parked in EV spots all day and these EVSE units were in before the car was released, the Bay Area has no need for PIPS to justify EVSE demand, as the demand exceeded supply long before the PIP was released. Having these cars block spots all day does not help much for many reasons. Second worse offenders are Tesla owners that commute 10 miles and use spots all day long and have 200 miles plus on the GOM. I also see them using EVSE spots for parking only as a convenience when no cable is available, I have seen this on multiple occasions and have asked them to move their cars, they think EV parking is a private spot in some garages.

 

[LeftieBiker]

Most people (who don't hate PIPs) would say the Tesla owners are worse, because that little added charge does nothing positive in the above scenario. The PIP uses much less fuel when it gets charged, however, improving air quality and lowering fossil fuel consumption.

 

[TimLee]

If it isn't charging it should at least be ticketed.
Preferably towed.
Even total idiots won't park where their car gets towed two or more times

 

[minispeed]

If it isn't charging it should at least be ticketed.
Preferably towed.
Even total idiots won't park where their car gets towed two or more times

http://www.autoblog.com/2014/12/29/iceing-fines-gave-raleigh-nc-27000-dollars/

go to your local parking enforcement/by law office and show them this.
" In Washington state, it can cost you $124. In Raleigh, NC, the fine is only $50, but ICE'ing tickets have really added to the city's coffers this past year. For the year that ended in November, Raleigh was able to ticket about 540 drivers which means the city collected about $27,000."

 

[srl99]

The original post was "why can't I drive like a kamikaze-EV? Must be those damn PHEVs!" I guess if they pull over enough speeding EVs they WILL get bragging rights at the Police Station. I remember Al Gore's son was pulled over doing more than 100 in a Prius (sorry, not a Plug-in Prius) years ago.

 

[minispeed]

The original post was "why can't I drive like a kamikaze-EV? Must be those damn PHEVs!" I guess if they pull over enough speeding EVs they WILL get bragging rights at the Police Station. I remember Al Gore's son was pulled over doing more than 100 in a Prius (sorry, not a Plug-in Prius) years ago.

That reminds me of the movie horrible bosses, red light camera gets them going through the light at a high rate of speed when they are attempting a murder....

Detective: "You wanna explain why you were speeding?"
Nick: "I was drag racing."
Detective: "In a Prius?"
Nick: "I don't win a lot."

Police enforcement of HOV lanes brings it's own problems. Pulling people over in rush hour traffic creates extra congestion. Rush hour also creates the problem that it's difficult for the police to move in too and since there are so many cars around the police then have a limited view. There are multiple ways of accomplishing the goal of reducing the occurrence through enforcement and a ticket during rush hour isn't the best of them.