Official Tesla Model S thread

[jkirkebo]

Another new EV, another new group of enthusiasts. As Leaf sales have shown, you have to come to the table with more than just new technology. It has to be practical. More range means more practical.

Many (most it seems) Model S owners do however not have any EV background, haven't ever considered a Leaf or a Volt for that matter. They've previously owned the opposite of green cars, cars like the M5, Panamera, S500, LS600 etc. Those people are not EV enthusiasts, they are Tesla enthusiasts (now at least). The Model S attracts a whole different segment of car buyers than the Leaf, in addition to many of the Leaf fans of course.

The Tesla is a remarkable car. I don't care for that huge screen and would rather see traditional knobs and dials for certain things. Looks out of place in the cabin, in my opinion. Tactile works for me. I hate pressing glass that has no give. Buttons and rockers work better than membranes or glass backing, in my opinion.

Personally I love the customizability of a glass cockpit. I also love my iPhone 3GS which I type much faster on than any previous phone with a real keyboard. Look at the Leaf with it's braindead HVAC button arrangement where you can only turn on/off AC, not the heater. To offer the ability to turn off heat too, they had to rearrange the whole thing for the 2013 Leaf. Tesla could just push a software update with an additional button. Brilliant.

I don't believe the current sales model will last, though. Sales are made by putting butts in the seats and that car being available-TODAY. A lot can happen in a month that can cause the person to change their mind and buy another car instead. They walk onto the Mercedes lot while they're waiting for their Tesla to be built and they change their mind.

Maybe in the US. In Europe people are expecting to wait a few months when ordering a new car. There are virtually no new cars on lots, everything is custom ordered. At least this is true for the upper half of the market, for some economy cars there might be lot cars (with very limited options) available. My wait time for a new car have usually been about 6 months but up to a year is not uncommon for cars in high demand. Rarely is the wait less than 2 months.

 

[evnow]

I don't believe the current sales model will last, though. Sales are made by putting butts in the seats and that car being available-TODAY. A lot can happen in a month that can cause the person to change their mind and buy another car instead. They walk onto the Mercedes lot while they're waiting for their Tesla to be built and they change their mind.

Yes - for the usual Fords & Chevys.

For a car that costs so much more, nobody will refuse to buy because they can't drive it home "TODAY".

Even now for a lot of German luxury cars, you have to wait. BTW, Tesla, I'm sure will stock cars in the future, may be in one location per city - which is also the service center.

 

[Train]

Nobody? I disagree.

 

[Train]

Many (most it seems) Model S owners do however not have any EV background, haven't ever considered a Leaf or a Volt for that matter. They've previously owned the opposite of green cars, cars like the M5, Panamera, S500, LS600 etc. Those people are not EV enthusiasts, they are Tesla enthusiasts (now at least). The. Model S attracts a whole different segment of car buyers than the Leaf, in addition to many of the Leaf fans of course

I disagree with this as well. Mitch672 considered a Leaf but because of the range, decided against it. He was going to get a Volt and instead, waited on the Tesla. I'm sure many others with the same story.

Indeed there are many that are going to sell their Lexus, Porsche, Mercedes or BMW to get a Tesla. But not all. Some like Mitch, have a Prius but are jumping into the high end Tesla waters. In fact, many have commented that this is the most they ever spent for a car by a large margin.

So some have this parked in front of a McMansion somewhere but others have wanted an EV with longer range and they have this with the Model S.

 

[palmermd]

well, nothing specific other than the normal day to day peculiarities cars have.

well i've heard that it is peculiarly fast

 

[GRA]

well, nothing specific other than the normal day to day peculiarities cars have.

well i've heard that it is peculiarly fast

It's acceleration is in line with the cars it's competing against. It just feels faster, like all BEVs vis a vis comparable ICEs, owing to torque off the line and lack of noise/vibration.

 

[evnow]

Nobody? I disagree.

Okay - may be not "nobody" - but almost nobody.

Anyway, the fact is that cars are already back ordered. When they are not, we will see what Tesla does. I remember saying Nissan will continue to do build to order for Leaf for first couple of years. That didn't happen.

The most important thing is - the main problem with Model S is not that they need to be pre-ordered, but that they are very expensive for someone not interested in EVs. There was a thread in the Tesla forum as to whether someone would buy them even if they weren't electric. (almost) Nobody was saying yes.

 

[mitch672]

I'll tell you this, on a test drive to some of my relatives yesterday, getting on an entrance ramp on I95, at the end of the ramp, I was at 80MPH.. That just doesn't happen in a Prius

No problems so far, had to get an external EZPass transponder mounted on the front plate because of the metalized windshield. Moved my XM lifetime subscription from the Plug in Prius to the Model S (don't ask, was not simple). Went through a touch less car wash today, exterior was cleaned ok, but the wheels where still filthy, had to clean them by hand with a microfiber cloth, looks like brake dust or road grime is easily attracted to the wheels. BTW, getting about 350 Wh/mile on average.

In the mornings the regen is limited to 45KW (60 is the normal max), because the battery is cold, after a few miles it goes away... The battery heater has been on as well because of the cold weather.. Once they have the charge timer update, I will time the charge to end before leaving in the morning, that should take care of the cold battery issue, since my charging finishes so early now. I've charge as low as 120/12A at work (2 mi/hour added, done mostly to keep the pack warmed), to 240/75A with my OpenEVSE.. Probably going to use something in between, to keep it charging at a lower current over a longer time, just to keep the pack warm... Seems to matter with our New England weather.

 

[DaveEV]

Once they have the charge timer update, I will time the charge to end before leaving in the morning, that should take care of the cold battery issue, since my charging finishes so early now. I've charge as low as 120/12A at work (2 mi/hour added, done mostly to keep the pack warmed), to 240/75A with my OpenEVSE.. Probably going to use something in between, to keep it charging at a lower current over a longer time, just to keep the pack warm... Seems to matter with our New England weather.

It's just crazy that Tesla has released the car without functional charge timers. This is the kind of stuff that Train is talking about that the average user shouldn't have to deal with on a $60-100k car (not to mention windshield wipers that apparently suck, a defroster that doesn't defrost the entire window, severe vampire load when the car is "off" so that one loses 5-15 mi range daily if not used, many screen related issues, panoramic roof opening issues, B-pillar materials showing wear after 1 month of use for many people, passenger doors that have popped open on their own, 12V batteries that are dying left and right, spurious very scary looking warnings. I really hope that Tesla gets their act together because otherwise, it's an awesome car.

 

[cwerdna]

It's just crazy that Tesla has released the car without functional charge timers. This is the kind of stuff that Train is talking about that the average user shouldn't have to deal with on a $60-100k car (not to mention windshield wipers that apparently suck, a defroster that doesn't defrost the entire window, severe vampire load when the car is "off" so that one loses 5-15 mi range daily if not used, many screen related issues, panoramic roof opening issues, B-pillar materials showing wear after 1 month of use for many people, passenger doors that have popped open on their own, 12V batteries that are dying left and right, spurious very scary looking warnings. I really hope that Tesla gets their act together because otherwise, it's an awesome car.

Some folks on the Electric Vehicle LinkedIn group (who work in the auto industry) have made comments that Tesla seems to have pretty high warranty costs given how few vehicles are out in the wild. One can look at their SEC filings and look at the costs prior to the Model S shipping to get an idea of what they're talking about.

I honestly don't know either way since I haven't dug into them but I can see they're listed each quarter.

For example, one can look at page 9 of http://ir.teslamotors.com/secfiling.cfm?filingID=1193125-12-457610&CIK=1318605" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to look at warranty costs incurred. Page 23 mentions 2,400 Roadsters delivered. Page 23 says

We began manufacturing Model S in June 2012. As of September 30, 2012, we had produced 359 production Model S vehicles, and delivered 263 production Model S vehicles.

The above is currently the most recent quarterly SEC filing at http://ir.teslamotors.com/sec.cfm?DocType=Quarterly&Year=&FormatFilter=" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[jkirkebo]

There was a thread in the Tesla forum as to whether someone would buy them even if they weren't electric. (almost) Nobody was saying yes.

That's not surprising. The Model S's biggest advantage is the quiet & silky smooth drive train with gobs of instant torque. Put in a rough ICE instead and what you're left with is a pretty car with a huge touch screen. Still a good car, but not competetive enough for a (relatively) new manufacturer.

If there were no EVs to be had and the Model S had an ICE, I'd probably go with the Lexus GS450h myself.

 

[Zythryn]

It's just crazy that Tesla has released the car without functional charge timers.

Agreed, from what I have been told that is a very high priority and should be updated soon.

...windshield wipers that apparently suck,

I would disagree, ours have been very nice, much better than my Volt or Prius ones. Although I have heard that tree sap on the windshield can be an issue. Also haven't heard any complaints from the other 2 owners in my suburb.

a defroster that doesn't defrost the entire window,

Mine does, although I had to play with the settings a bit to get the entire side window defrosted.

severe vampire load when the car is "off" so that one loses 5-15 mi range daily if not used,

Yep, that definitely needed fixing and has been fixed by an update. Used to drain about 21/2%, now it drains less than 1%, also keep in mind, 8 miles is a bigger deal when your range is 73 miles than when it is 265.

many screen related issues,

Very minor issues. I have had one in 5000 miles, which I easily fixed in about 15 seconds. Neither of the other owners I have spoken to reported any. Not sure how you define "many".

panoramic roof opening issues,

Yes, sometimes, some owners reported needing to hit the button twice. This has been fixed in the latest update.

B-pillar materials showing wear after 1 month of use for many people,

Not for me after over 3 months, and not from others I have spoken to, but I do hope if it is a manufacturing issue Tesla will make it right.

passenger doors that have popped open on their own,

I remember seeing a thread on that somewhere. Have not heard of it happening to anyone who I know that owns one, never happened to me. I actually don't believe it, as there is no mechanism in the car that can open a door that I am aware of.
******edit/update*******
Fascinating, found some more information on this. I have been able to find 3 people reporting this now. Seems in each case the door unlatched and opened about an inch. In each case it happened when the driver was not inside the car (did not happen while in motion). Was repeatable for a short period of time, then stopped happening. This is something that really needs to be fixed and I am sure is very high on Tesla's list. Not sure if I would place this above the charge timer or not as the charge timer is simply an annoyance, but affects everyone. Where as the door unlatchig affects a very small number of people, seems to not be persistent, but is very disconcerting.
******************************************************

12V batteries that are dying left and right,

Any that have died have been replaced at Tesla's expense, this is a side effect of the large vampire drain you mentioned earlier.

spurious very scary looking warnings.

The only errant message I got was low windshield washer fluid. And that, in my case, has been fixed.
For any other error, I call Tesla and they let me know what the error means, if it isn't obvious, and can run the logs to see what needs to be done.

I really hope that Tesla gets their act together because otherwise, it's an awesome car.

Many of the issues you bring up have been fixed, and many more will be. Yes, they are a young company and are making a huge jump into higher production levels. As an owner, I am very happy with how quickly they have addressed issues, how well they have taken care of me as an individual, and frankly, how minor the issues have been.

 

[DaveEV]

Thanks for the reply, Zythryn.

FWIW, the wiper/defrost complaints seem to come from cold region/heavy rain area folks, not sure where you live.

Supposedly the very latest firmware fix improves wiper function under extreme conditions, but the defroster issue is going to require a hard hack (replacing vent parts) to fix. Not sure how they will fix the side window visibility issues in those conditions, though.

 

[Zythryn]

Thanks for the reply, Zythryn.

FWIW, the wiper/defrost complaints seem to come from cold region/heavy rain area folks, not sure where you live.

Supposedly the very latest firmware fix improves wiper function under extreme conditions, but the defroster issue is going to require a hard hack (replacing vent parts) to fix. Not sure how they will fix the side window visibility issues in those conditions, though.

Minnesota, land of frosting glass;-)
Seriously, defrosters are very important where we are. And it was an issue on the 'auto' setting.
I went into the settings, turned the upper vents on and no longer have defrosting issues. Drivers side window is 100% clear. Only time it isn't is when I turn the climate off completely and conditions are such that the windows will fog up.

I do believe that this is a simple software fix. The vents seem perfectly good to me. However, if it does prove to require a hardware fix I have no doubt what so ever that Tesla will take care of it, which is a lot more than I could say about other manufacturers of cars I have owned.

 

[ebill3]

I do believe that this is a simple software fix. The vents seem perfectly good to me. However, if it does prove to require a hardware fix I have no doubt what so ever that Tesla will take care of it, which is a lot more than I could say about other manufacturers of cars I have owned.

It appears that there is a hardware fix.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/11704-Fogging/page9
Post #90.

 

[Zythryn]

I do believe that this is a simple software fix. The vents seem perfectly good to me. However, if it does prove to require a hardware fix I have no doubt what so ever that Tesla will take care of it, which is a lot more than I could say about other manufacturers of cars I have owned.

It appears that there is a hardware fix.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/11704-Fogging/page9
Post #90.

They already have a prototype they are working on? For a problem affecting a small number of owners? Amazing!
Nice quick response. From the thread it is looking like this is more common of an issue in Canada, which makes sense.
I am surprised I haven't experienced more of it in MN. Heck yesterday I actually had to hit the Defrost button on the screen.
I am very happy Tesla is so quickly working on a problem that is not affecting all owners. Reaffirms my faith in them.

 

[GRA]

I do believe that this is a simple software fix. The vents seem perfectly good to me. However, if it does prove to require a hardware fix I have no doubt what so ever that Tesla will take care of it, which is a lot more than I could say about other manufacturers of cars I have owned.

It appears that there is a hardware fix.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/11704-Fogging/page9
Post #90.

They already have a prototype they are working on? For a problem affecting a small number of owners? Amazing!
Nice quick response. From the thread it is looking like this is more common of an issue in Canada, which makes sense.
I am surprised I haven't experienced more of it in MN. Heck yesterday I actually had to hit the Defrost button on the screen.
I am very happy Tesla is so quickly working on a problem that is not affecting all owners. Reaffirms my faith in them.

Sure does provide a contrast to Nissan's behavior over the past summer, doesn't it? Admittedly, Nissan is a lot larger company with a lot more models at far lower price points, but still, no screwing around hiding behind weasel words, denial and lawyers, just a frank admittal that there's a problem that needs to be fixed, here's what we're doing to fix it, and we'll be notifying you as soon as it's ready. It's nice to see a company that has their customer's backs.

 

[TonyWilliams]

It's nice to see a company that has their customer's backs.

I suspect if Tesla were faced with the same battery degradation issues as Nissan, they would be bankrupt quickly and promptly. Nissan can afford to monkey around.

 

[GRA]

It's nice to see a company that has their customer's backs.

I suspect if Tesla were faced with the same battery degradation issues as Nissan, they would be bankrupt quickly and promptly. Nissan can afford to monkey around.

Quite so, which is why Tesla went with a more conservative system in the first place, although I've never been enamored with the idea of using thousands of commodity cells for the battery - I can foresee any number of problems caused by all those connections. But Tesla seems to be making it work, so good for them.

 

[evnow]

Quite so, which is why Tesla went with a more conservative system in the first place, although I've never been enamored with the idea of using thousands of commodity cells for the battery - I can foresee any number of problems caused by all those connections. But Tesla seems to be making it work, so good for them.

The reason Tesla went with with consumer batteries was to get the lowest price on batteries. But they had to work around all the battery issues - they had no choice but to use thermal cooling to make sure the batteries don't get into thermal runaway.

There is an interesting thread in the Tesla Forum (TF for short ;-) ) about whether the form factor Tesla uses now will slowly become extinct as laptop form factor changes to more Surface like, rather than today's laptop.