Official Tesla Model S thread

[Herm]

did that at previous home. but dont have room here. besides, hanging stuff on wall does not change how much space you have to park cars

Dave, obviously you install the cabinets high enough that the S clears..

 

[N952JL]

Train is hardly a lone voice.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/tesla-" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... eid=yhoof2

This guy may just be another Debbie Downer but this article sure makes it sound like they are hanging by a thread. Who knows though, "friends in high places" may keep Tesla around for a long time to come at the largesse of the taxpayer.

Thanks for posting that, LT.

And this is all I was saying but some here are so sensitive. It's only prudent to look at what they're getting into and that's all I'm saying. Your accountant, a tax or investment advisor would tell you the same thing, it's silly to even consider pulling cash out of your 401K to pay for a $100,000 luxury car let alone from a company that is teetering right now. Wait until it's stable and let the guys who can really afford these cars get them ahead of you.

Everyone knows that Tesla is shaky at best, it appears, except for the financially naive who are buying out of pure emotion. I'm sure it hurts to hear that but we're adults. Sometimes it's hard to hear the truth.

I'm saying nothing more than it's an unwise financial decision to spend that much money on a car when your income isn't even remotely high enough.

But one can do whatever they want. It's their money. There are plenty of people renting right now because they got out of a reasonable mortgage and just had to have that 3000 sq foot house, double the monthly payment be damned.

"Hello...think McFly."

Train, I am behind in my reading so this is coming later than it should have.

1st. "and this is all I was saying..." No that is not all you are saying. If that was all, it would be fine and I would agree with you. I'm waiting till I can trade in my Leaf for a true 250 mile range BEV. Or there is a APU range extender trailer available, that I can afford. but that is not all you are saying.

"...from a company that is teetering right now. ... Everyone knows that Tesla is shaky at best, ..." Neither of these two statements have anything to do with buying a 100K luxury car you can't afford, or pulling money out of a retirement account for a 110K luxury car you can't afford. This is where you lose all credability for what you say is your primary concern. If that is your concern leave out the Tesla bashing. Right now Tesla is doing very well for a start up company. IMHO they followed a well thought out plan. They knew they would need a high margin car in the beginning to help pay for the tons of research required to bring this type of car to market. They went after the 100+k sport car market. Not only that, they bought a mule from a well know company and just added their electric drive etc. Keeping they capital investment to a min while their research cost was very high. Next they go after the luxury car market with a base price almost half that of the sport car, but selling that after the Higher end versions again getting the high margin vehicles first to off set the high capital investment in starting their own production. They didn't have the deep pockets that Nissan has so they looked around and chose the luxury route. Next they will come out with the Model X, maybe not as much a luxury model but still pretty high up there, but a market that they might be able to get another 2% of. When those two are doing well, maybe we will see a 200 or 300 mile BEV that is in the High Normal range, like 30 to 50K with 50K being the fully decked out version with the big pack.

Now do we need quick charge. YES. I have been saying this for almost a year. If the BEV is to replace the ICE, it must be able to do real road trips! That means a four to five hr drive and a 30 min to 1 hr stop, followed by another three hrs drive, then stop overnight. Anything less than that and the BEV is still a nick car. A families second car but not their real car. It's the town car but not the only car. That is not where we want the BEV to end up at.

 

[cwerdna]

"...from a company that is teetering right now. ... Everyone knows that Tesla is shaky at best, ..." Neither of these two statements have anything to do with buying a 100K luxury car you can't afford, or pulling money out of a retirement account for a 110K luxury car you can't afford. This is where you lose all credability for what you say is your primary concern. If that is your concern leave out the Tesla bashing. Right now Tesla is doing very well for a start up company.

Doing "very well"? Have you looked at the revenues vs. net income? See http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=TSLA+Income+Statement&annual" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=TSLA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, for instance. Notice they haven't turned a single profit yet? Notice that in recent quarters they've lost several times the amount of $ that they've brought in as revenue?

For example, for the most recent quarter, they brought in ~$50.1 million in revenue but their total costs and expenses were $160.9 million, leading to a $110.8 million loss.

Those do have a relationship. It points to the limited audience who can actually afford or "afford" their vehicles.

Personally, I want Tesla to succeed, but there are financial realities.

 

[abasile]

A startup company of Tesla's ilk is expected to bleed money at this stage. The real question is, are they executing well? By all accounts, yes!

 

[cwerdna]

A startup company of Tesla's ilk is expected to bleed money at this stage. The real question is, are they executing well? By all accounts, yes!

Do keep in mind they're not THAT new a company. They were founded in 2003 (mentioned at http://www.teslamotors.com/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

They did miss their delivery targets earlier this year and also recently raised prices on the Model S. IIRC, they also raised prices on the Roadster before they were delivered. They were floundering and almost out of at least once before they IPOed. It was mentioned at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6022&p=253195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

all that is in the past though. I never thought Tesla would survive with a single high end sports car and they wont survive with a single high end passenger car. They need a catalog like any other manufacturer. Until that happens, they are doing well to tread water and that is apparently what they are doing now or at least that is what we are led to believe.

interesting how they will be able to do that and build this super charger network in a year

 

[abasile]

Do keep in mind they're not THAT new a company. They were founded in 2003 (mentioned at http://www.teslamotors.com/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

True, but the transformation to significant volume manufacturing is quite recent. The 'S' is a huge undertaking! Tesla might as well be a whole new company now.

They did miss their delivery targets earlier this year and also recently raised prices on the Model S. IIRC, they also raised prices on the Roadster before they were delivered.

This seems like small potatoes. The delay is not great, and the price increase not so big.

They were floundering and almost out of at least once before they IPOed. It was mentioned at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6022&p=253195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

Yes. Glad they came through!

I will agree that the EV market is anything but certain. However, if Tesla fails, it will not be for failure to execute.

 

[N952JL]

A startup company of Tesla's ilk is expected to bleed money at this stage. The real question is, are they executing well? By all accounts, yes!

Do keep in mind they're not THAT new a company. They were founded in 2003 (mentioned at http://www.teslamotors.com/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

They did miss their delivery targets earlier this year and also recently raised prices on the Model S. IIRC, they also raised prices on the Roadster before they were delivered. They were floundering and almost out of at least once before they IPOed. It was mentioned at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6022&p=253195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I would like to point out that no one with a confirmed reservation has had their prices increased! If you read the release the you had till x date to make your reservation and give them their 5,000 deposit. Then you had to a certain date after receiving your build date to confirm you really wanted the vehicle and to flesh out your options. If you failed to flesh out to follow through, then the price increase went into affect. So no one who has already placed a deposit down will have the price increase. Unlike Nissan who raised the price of the 2012 on all of us who had deposits paid in 2010! but were not allowed to order till 2012.

 

[cwerdna]

A startup company of Tesla's ilk is expected to bleed money at this stage. The real question is, are they executing well? By all accounts, yes!

Do keep in mind they're not THAT new a company. They were founded in 2003 (mentioned at http://www.teslamotors.com/about" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false.

They did miss their delivery targets earlier this year and also recently raised prices on the Model S. IIRC, they also raised prices on the Roadster before they were delivered. They were floundering and almost out of at least once before they IPOed. It was mentioned at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=6022&p=253195" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

I would like to point out that no one with a confirmed reservation has had their prices increased! If you read the release the you had till x date to make your reservation and give them their 5,000 deposit. Then you had to a certain date after receiving your build date to confirm you really wanted the vehicle and to flesh out your options. If you failed to flesh out to follow through, then the price increase went into affect. So no one who has already placed a deposit down will have the price increase. Unlike Nissan who raised the price of the 2012 on all of us who had deposits paid in 2010! but were not allowed to order till 2012.

Sure, but this wasn't the case w/the Roadster. I remember seeing the scene (I believe it was in Revenge of the Electric Cars) where Musk w/meeting w/a group of people who'd put down deposits for the Roadster and Musk had to deliver the bad news and explain the situation.

 

[evnow]

However, if Tesla fails, it will not be for failure to execute.

Depends - they have made the base 40 kWh version as less attractive as possible. If the demand sags, that could be one the reasons.

 

[cwerdna]

They did miss their delivery targets earlier this year and also recently raised prices on the Model S. IIRC, they also raised prices on the Roadster before they were delivered.

This seems like small potatoes. The delay is not great, and the price increase not so big.

Hmmm.... well, from http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2012/07/25/investors-hit-accelerator-despite-tesla-q2-revenue-miss/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; they were targeting 5000 by end of 2012. But from http://www.dailytech.com/Tesla+Motors+Reduces+2012+Revenue+Predictions+After+Model+S+Delays+/article27783.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, if I take the high end of the ranges, that's 3225. Meeting only 64.5% of your target that Wall Street was told about is small potatoes?

In August 2012, before the above announcements there were these stories:
Tesla: Sell Enough Cars by Year's End, or Else:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/08/tesla-sell-enough-cars-by-years-end-or-else.html?shout_id=22798%3A387618" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tesla CEO: future hinges on increasing Model S production:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-ceo-future-hinges-on-increasing-model-s-production.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I will agree that they have what seems like a great product by virtually all accounts. The issue is whether their business is sustainable. As I think I've posted elsewhere (maybe here) before, a major automaker can product a great car for $(insert large amount here). But, in order to be profitable, there have to make compromises to get it to down to a point where it's competitive and will sell. If Tesla doesn't make $, eventually, they will go under. If they're near death and they're lucky, someone will scoop them up.

I think some people are letting their enthusiasm for the company and product cloud how they view the company and its situation.

 

[GoingGreener]

The Tesla S sounds awesome!

Just curious:
Anything (small or huge) current owners wish could be different about it?
Auto insurance is based on many factors, but wondering what the costs are like for those who have them now...

I was surprised how low the insurance was.
It is just a little more than my Volt. About $700/6 months with State Farm.
State Farm had the Model S in their system, including distinctions between each battery size, and signature, and performance levels.
If an insurance company doesn't have it in their system I would definitely get competing bids.

The lack of a charge timer is the biggest missing thing in my opinion. I would be surprised if it were not in the next update.
I like the openness of the styling. But I would like to see a center console insert with better positioned cup holders (further forward than the current ones on the armrest).
I would also like to see the time delay for automatically locking the doors be adjustable.

Oh, I would like to see a smaller vehicle. But that will be their third gen sedan which will probably replace our Volt.

Overall, amazingly minor issues for a companies first 'ground up' designed car.

Thanks Zythryn for your insights.
S insurance doesn't seem too bad.
Just one thing that hasn't been mentioned, but maybe it's just me. The roof for the rear passengers is a bit low.
But definitely a beautiful, well-performing "ground up" car. Also looking forward to a smaller vehicle from Tesla!

 

[NotTarts]

They did miss their delivery targets earlier this year and also recently raised prices on the Model S. IIRC, they also raised prices on the Roadster before they were delivered.

This seems like small potatoes. The delay is not great, and the price increase not so big.

Hmmm.... well, from http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2012/07/25/investors-hit-accelerator-despite-tesla-q2-revenue-miss/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; they were targeting 5000 by end of 2012. But from http://www.dailytech.com/Tesla+Motors+Reduces+2012+Revenue+Predictions+After+Model+S+Delays+/article27783.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, if I take the high end of the ranges, that's 3225. Meeting only 64.5% of your target that Wall Street was told about is small potatoes?

In August 2012, before the above announcements there were these stories:
Tesla: Sell Enough Cars by Year's End, or Else:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/08/tesla-sell-enough-cars-by-years-end-or-else.html?shout_id=22798%3A387618" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tesla CEO: future hinges on increasing Model S production:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-ceo-future-hinges-on-increasing-model-s-production.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I will agree that they have what seems like a great product by virtually all accounts. The issue is whether their business is sustainable. As I think I've posted elsewhere (maybe here) before, a major automaker can product a great car for $(insert large amount here). But, in order to be profitable, there have to make compromises to get it to down to a point where it's competitive and will sell. If Tesla doesn't make $, eventually, they will go under. If they're near death and they're lucky, someone will scoop them up.

I think some people are letting their enthusiasm for the company and product cloud how they view the company and its situation.

Whether they deliver 2500 or 5000 cars this year is largely irrelevant. In order to remain profitable Tesla needs to produce cars at a certain rate, and delays in production can create issues in the short term but won't affect the sustainability of the company if the goal is reached on time and within budget. If you have evidence that Tesla has failed to reach - or else is struggling to reach - the profitable 400 cars per week threshold, feel free to post it. The latest figures we have are a 200 per week production rate in early November and there's nothing to indicate that they've had issues ramping up production since then.

 

[surfingslovak]

However, if Tesla fails, it will not be for failure to execute.

Depends - they have made the base 40 kWh version as less attractive as possible. If the demand sags, that could be one the reasons.

Agreed, they don't need the 40 kWh, but since nobody can reliably predict the addressable market size for the higher-end trims, there might come a time, when they will need to leverage the base model better to attract a different market segment. I cancelled my first reservation, but I'm giving the 60 kWh and the 85 kWh non-performance trims a second look.

 

[Zythryn]

... The issue is whether their business is sustainable. As I think I've posted elsewhere (maybe here) before, a major automaker can product a great car for $(insert large amount here). But, in order to be profitable, there have to make compromises to get it to down to a point where it's competitive and will sell. If Tesla doesn't make $, eventually, they will go under. If they're near death and they're lucky, someone will scoop them up.

I think some people are letting their enthusiasm for the company and product cloud how they view the company and its situation.

I think the opposite is also true
Regarding the 5000 number, that was their target in the second quarter. At the stock holders meeting at the end of the third quarter they adjusted that to 2500-3000 because their production ran into some delays that put them about 6 weeks behind.

Tesla has reported they expect about a 25% margin on the Model S and in early December they had their first cash positive week. VINs in the range of 2600-2800 are being delivered now, so it looks like they are on target for their latest estimate.

Regarding the price increase, the increase for the Model S did not affect any reservation holders. Basically it will take effect late next summer. This is not unusual I the car business. As a matter of fact I believe Nissan does it on occasion ;-P

And yes, you are absolutely correct, any business must make money to remain in business. And start up companies or companies entering a new phase of their company (niche exotics scaling up to mass production of a wholly self designed product) can be very risky. But a 2% share of the luxury car market doesn't seem an outrageous goal to me.

 

[keydiver]

I would like to point out that no one with a confirmed reservation has had their prices increased!

Technically, you might be correct, but as far as I'm concerned they did the equivalent by removing many features from the base model and making them expensive options instead. As others have said, they have made the base model as unattractive as possible, while at the same time Musk is doing interviews, touting his "$50,000 luxury electric car". By also blocking access to their charging network, restricting paint colors, and pushing base model production to the end of the line, Tesla killed any chance of my owning an S. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who feels disenfranchised by the whole experience.

 

[N952JL]

They did miss their delivery targets earlier this year and also recently raised prices on the Model S. IIRC, they also raised prices on the Roadster before they were delivered.

This seems like small potatoes. The delay is not great, and the price increase not so big.

Hmmm.... well, from http://www.forbes.com/sites/toddwoody/2012/07/25/investors-hit-accelerator-despite-tesla-q2-revenue-miss/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; they were targeting 5000 by end of 2012. But from http://www.dailytech.com/Tesla+Motors+Reduces+2012+Revenue+Predictions+After+Model+S+Delays+/article27783.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, if I take the high end of the ranges, that's 3225. Meeting only 64.5% of your target that Wall Street was told about is small potatoes?

In August 2012, before the above announcements there were these stories:
Tesla: Sell Enough Cars by Year's End, or Else:
http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2012/08/tesla-sell-enough-cars-by-years-end-or-else.html?shout_id=22798%3A387618" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Tesla CEO: future hinges on increasing Model S production:
http://www.leftlanenews.com/tesla-ceo-future-hinges-on-increasing-model-s-production.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I will agree that they have what seems like a great product by virtually all accounts. The issue is whether their business is sustainable. As I think I've posted elsewhere (maybe here) before, a major automaker can product a great car for $(insert large amount here). But, in order to be profitable, there have to make compromises to get it to down to a point where it's competitive and will sell. If Tesla doesn't make $, eventually, they will go under. If they're near death and they're lucky, someone will scoop them up.

I think some people are letting their enthusiasm for the company and product cloud how they view the company and its situation.

I look at it this way, the 2012 production run is sold out. I'm not sure, but a large portion of 2013 has reservations and if the reservations turn to sales, will be sold out. As long as they are making a profit per car, they should have a going business.

 

[KJD]

I would like to point out that no one with a confirmed reservation has had their prices increased!

Technically, you might be correct, but as far as I'm concerned they did the equivalent by removing many features from the base model and making them expensive options instead. As others have said, they have made the base model as unattractive as possible, while at the same time Musk is doing interviews, touting his "$50,000 luxury electric car". By also blocking access to their charging network, restricting paint colors, and pushing base model production to the end of the line, Tesla killed any chance of my owning an S. I'm sure that I'm not the only one who feels disenfranchised by the whole experience.

Make that 2 of us. Blocking access to the charging network was a deal breaker for me.
This could all change sometime next year when the reservation list gets worked down to zero.

 

[Phoenix]

Re: Blocking access to superchargers. Had the opposite effect on me. Made me WANT to have a Tesla since they are so ahead of the game in thinking what EV drivers need. Much as I love my LEAF around town, the longer range offered by Tesla together with lifetime free charging makes it SO-OOO appealing. Don't care much for anything else (car too big, too much extraneous stuff, etc.)

 

[KJD]

Re: Blocking access to superchargers. Had the opposite effect on me. Made me WANT to have a Tesla since they are so ahead of the game in thinking what EV drivers need.

You lost me on that one.