Official Tesla Model S thread

[apvbguy]

^ I suppose you're right, but more and more the rules seem to be made up as you go when it comes to laws being enforced or not.

that could be a true statement, however the tesla fanboys who are rallying around this message from the 2 staffers at the FTC are just perpetuating this form of rule abuse.
believe it or not we still are a nation governed by the rule of laws and there is methodology to altering or changing regs or laws and bullying and populist rants are not the route people should be leaning on to effect change

 

[Zythryn]

^ I suppose you're right, but more and more the rules seem to be made up as you go when it comes to laws being enforced or not.

that could be a true statement, however the tesla fanboys who are rallying around this message from the 2 staffers at the FTC are just perpetuating this form of rule abuse.
believe it or not we still are a nation governed by the rule of laws and there is methodology to altering or changing regs or laws and bullying and populist rants are not the route people should be leaning on to effect change

I don't quite get your reaction.
The FTC has made no suggestions it is even contemplating trying to make any changes.
Three of the members posted their personal opinion in a blog, and made it very clear it was their personal opinion.

People often listen to, even seek out, the opinions of others. Media constantly reports on opinions of people. And at least the FTC members have some basis for having an informed opinion on trade and economic topics.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

FYI, the full "opinion" is posted here:

http://www.ftc.gov/news-events/blogs/competition-matters/2014/04/who-decides-how-consumers-should-shop" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, it's worth noting that the FTC is involved in all sorts of litigation:

http://www.ftc.gov/system/files/attachments/quarterly-litigation-status-report/status.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Say what you will about how this just the opinion of some flunkies at the FTC and not any official position, and that the FTC has no authority to do anything in this world, but it looks to me like there's more behind this. The winds of change are blowing.

 

[mkjayakumar]

Tesla is doing absolutely the right thing in this fight. At this stage of the game they are mobilizing public opinion and slowly changing the mindset of politicians that standing behind NADA and these arcane laws will be a losing proposition. Tesla cannot directly work with the legislatures now and change the law, because most of them are in NADA's deep pockets.

So better to a build momentum now and then at some point when it really hurts their sales, they can file a federal suit. And at that time, all these opinions from people who are Subject matter experts in this area would come in extremely handy to fight their case. So in the short term this opinion blog will not immediately give relief, but when the time is right this is exactly the weapon they can take it to Supreme court.

And remember this opinion piece was not published in some pro-Tesla outfit like greencarreports.com or Sanjosemercury news or such site, but right on the FTC government site itself. That really tells you something.

 

[N952JL]

I'm not sure if you were saying my comment was juvenile.

This is from wikipedia on the FTC (and yes, I recognize this was not an FTC position, just opinions of FTC insiders, but it still seems potentially indicative):

The Bureau of Competition is the division of the FTC charged with elimination and prevention of "anticompetitive" business practices. It accomplishes this through the enforcement of antitrust laws, review of proposed mergers, and investigation into other non-merger business practices that may impair competition. Such non-merger practices include horizontal restraints, involving agreements between direct competitors, and vertical restraints, involving agreements among businesses at different levels in the same industry (such as suppliers and commercial buyers).

The FTC shares enforcement of antitrust laws with the Department of Justice. However, while the FTC is responsible for civil enforcement of antitrust laws, the Antitrust Division of the Department of Justice has the power to bring both civil and criminal action in antitrust matters.

Sounds pretty broad to me, but I'm not a lawyer. These franchise laws may have just flown under the radar for a long time before Tesla came along and wouldn't stop rocking the boat.

I was calling the comments made by the FTC staffers juvenile, I will repeat my statement, at this point the FTC has no jurisdiction, no power to force NJ to do anything to change their rulings. for the FTC to try and interject themselves into issue is a complete over stepping of their authority.
if you, tesla, the ftc, the tooth fairy or anyone else thinks that the laws are illegal, are not pertinent or unfair then there are remedies available.
all the caterwauling by the tesla fanboys, by these jerks at the FTC is meaningless.
the path to remedy the problem is either via the legislature or the courts. if the FTC tries to intervene they will be and should be told to go pound sand because the law as it stands in NJ is none of the feds damned business

I have a question, I am not a lawyer nor have I memorized the Constitution, but I seem to remember a clause that states an individual cannot enact laws that restrict interstate commerce. It seems to me there is a case that this Law in NJ as well as the other states, restrict interstate commerce and that is a federal area that might or might not be under the FTC's powers. Just a thought.

 

[apvbguy]

I have a question, I am not a lawyer nor have I memorized the Constitution, but I seem to remember a clause that states an individual cannot enact laws that restrict interstate commerce. It seems to me there is a case that this Law in NJ as well as the other states, restrict interstate commerce and that is a federal area that might or might not be under the FTC's powers. Just a thought.

there is no restriction on interstate commerce, tesla can sell all the cars that they want to in NJ or TX they just can't sell a car directly to a consumer. the laws currently force any AUTO manufacturer to sell through some sort of middle man.
I am sure that it there is a violation of the the commerce clause the lawsuits would have been filed a long time ago.

 

[Zythryn]

I have a question, I am not a lawyer nor have I memorized the Constitution, but I seem to remember a clause that states an individual cannot enact laws that restrict interstate commerce. It seems to me there is a case that this Law in NJ as well as the other states, restrict interstate commerce and that is a federal area that might or might not be under the FTC's powers. Just a thought.

there is no restriction on interstate commerce, tesla can sell all the cars that they want to in NJ or TX they just can't sell a car directly to a consumer. the laws currently force any AUTO manufacturer to sell through some sort of middle man.
I am sure that it there is a violation of the the commerce clause the lawsuits would have been filed a long time ago.

The question is, why can't an auto manufacturer sell direct.
Many businesses do so. Heck, some businesses do both, sell direct and have franchises.
In MN the laws were written to reinforce the contracts between auto dealers and manufacturers.
They are written to prevent an auto manufacturer from competing with their own dealers.

They are not written to outlaw an otherwise legal business model. I don't know of the other states however I still find it hilarious that conservative states that hold up concepts such as the free market and less government regulation do the exact opposite.

 

[apvbguy]

I have a question, I am not a lawyer nor have I memorized the Constitution, but I seem to remember a clause that states an individual cannot enact laws that restrict interstate commerce. It seems to me there is a case that this Law in NJ as well as the other states, restrict interstate commerce and that is a federal area that might or might not be under the FTC's powers. Just a thought.

there is no restriction on interstate commerce, tesla can sell all the cars that they want to in NJ or TX they just can't sell a car directly to a consumer. the laws currently force any AUTO manufacturer to sell through some sort of middle man.
I am sure that it there is a violation of the the commerce clause the lawsuits would have been filed a long time ago.

The question is, why can't an auto manufacturer sell direct.

you are correct that back in the early days of the mass marketing of autos the dealers used independent dealers, at one point the manufacturers tried to force the independent dealers out of the game so many states enacted these laws in order to protect the "mom and pop" dealerships that dominated the business 7 or 8 decades ago. like many laws they have become obsolete and cumbersome as the technology evolves beyond what was envisioned long ago and change is something that is hard to make happen, especially when the change will appear to damage many local friends of the politicians. why so many people think that it is conservatives or republicans who are at fault, this is where some of the self appointed smart people fall off the rails because in the case of NJ, christie who is the current republican governor is statutorily weak, the power rests with the democrat controlled legislature. unlike the the clowns in DC, in NJ the governor does not have the power to arbitrarily alter or suspend the regs or laws of the state of NJ, there are only 2 ways for the laws to be changed, you can either get the courts to overturn them or the legislature can enacted new laws to supercede the old laws, and did I note that the legislature and the courts in NJ are controlled by democrats, very liberal ones at that

 

[Zythryn]

... there are only 2 ways for the laws to be changed, you can either get the courts to overturn them or the legislature can enacted new laws to supercede the old laws, and did I note that the legislature and the courts in NJ are controlled by democrats, very liberal ones at that

You do realize neither the legislature or courts in NJ outlawed direct sales? It was a group of regulators appointed by Christie.

 

[apvbguy]

... there are only 2 ways for the laws to be changed, you can either get the courts to overturn them or the legislature can enacted new laws to supercede the old laws, and did I note that the legislature and the courts in NJ are controlled by democrats, very liberal ones at that

You do realize neither the legislature or courts in NJ outlawed direct sales? It was a group of regulators appointed by Christie.

that is not correct, get your facts correct! the law has been in place for decades

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

^ Can you cite the NJ statute that prohibits direct sales by manufacturers?

 

[Zythryn]

... there are only 2 ways for the laws to be changed, you can either get the courts to overturn them or the legislature can enacted new laws to supercede the old laws, and did I note that the legislature and the courts in NJ are controlled by democrats, very liberal ones at that

You do realize neither the legislature or courts in NJ outlawed direct sales? It was a group of regulators appointed by Christie.

that is not correct, get your facts correct! the law has been in place for decades

I just double checked. The New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission closed Tesla down with a vote in March.
The law is under review and Tesla has been working with both the legislature and Gov to clarify the law.
Tesla had already been issued two license to sell cars at their two stores in NJ, so they were selling cars there legally.

Most of these laws are very clear that a franchiser can not sell direct in competition with their own franchisees. Tesla is not a franchiser, thus they can sell direct.

 

[apvbguy]

You do realize neither the legislature or courts in NJ outlawed direct sales? It was a group of regulators appointed by Christie.

that is not correct, get your facts correct! the law has been in place for decades

I just double checked. The New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission closed Tesla down with a vote in March.

the motor vehicle commission hasn't the power to enact or make changes to laws that have been enacted.
what the MVC did was that they issued an interpretation of the law on the books.

The law is under review and Tesla has been working with both the legislature and Gov to clarify the law.

the law is under review? exactly who is reviewing the law and exactly who is tesla working with? in the eyes of the state of NJ the law is clear as per the MVC ruling.
the only option open to tesla is to either get the courts to strike down the law in NJ or to get the legislature to enact a new law that will supercede the law currently in effect.

Tesla had already been issued two license to sell cars at their two stores in NJ, so they were selling cars there legally.

not quite right again, Tesla was issued permission to sell in NJ, the NJ dealers association challenged the issuance of the permits, the status of the permits was changed to provisional pending a decision and the decision went against tesla so the license to sell the cars was revoked by the state.

Most of these laws are very clear that a franchiser can not sell direct in competition with their own franchisees. Tesla is not a franchiser, thus they can sell direct.

actually the law in NJ can be seen as being ambiguous, your interpretation could be spot on, now you and or tesla need to prove the point by taking it through the courts. it is time for elon and tesla corp. to begin to behave like adults and go through the long and arduous task of proving the state wrong.

 

[apvbguy]

^ Can you cite the NJ statute that prohibits direct sales by manufacturers?

no, I couldn't be bothered, if you really care it can be found with a bit of digging

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

^ Can you cite the NJ statute that prohibits direct sales by manufacturers?

no, I couldn't be bothered, if you really care it can be found with a bit of digging

I'm not above bothering myself to get to the facts.

NEW JERSEY STATUTES AND CODES
56:10-27 - Sales through franchises only

56:10-27. Sales through franchises only
It shall be a violation of this act for any motor vehicle franchisor, directly or indirectly, through any officer, agent, employee, broker or any shareholder of the franchisor, except a shareholder of 1% or less of the outstanding shares of any class of securities of a franchisor which is a publicly traded corporation, or other person, to offer to sell or sell motor vehicles, to a consumer, other than an employee of the franchisor, except through a motor vehicle franchisee.

Looks pretty cut and dry, that law does not apply to Tesla.

 

[apvbguy]

Looks pretty cut and dry, that law does not apply to Tesla.

why don't you go up there to NJ and tell them a thing or two?
like I noted a few posts ago, you and telsa could be 100% correct that the MVC made an incorrect determination of the law, now all you need to do is find someone with the powers to overturn their decision to hear your case.
please keep me updated on your progress

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

why don't you go up there to NJ and tell them a thing or two?
like I noted a few posts ago, you and telsa could be 100% correct that the MVC made an incorrect determination of the law, now all you need to do is find someone with the powers to overturn their decision to hear your case.
please keep me updated on your progress

no, I couldn't be bothered

 

[apvbguy]

why don't you go up there to NJ and tell them a thing or two?
like I noted a few posts ago, you and telsa could be 100% correct that the MVC made an incorrect determination of the law, now all you need to do is find someone with the powers to overturn their decision to hear your case.
please keep me updated on your progress

no, I couldn't be bothered

hey, you're the one making the assertions of fact.
if you think your position is so strong I am sure that everyone in the tesla world would hail you as a god if you could convince the people in NJ the error of their ways.

 

[WetEV]

if you could convince the people in NJ the error of their ways.

The People of New Jersey? They don't seem to be the problem. Try again. Get more specific.

 

[apvbguy]

if you could convince the people in NJ the error of their ways.

The People of New Jersey? They don't seem to be the problem. Try again. Get more specific.

you are correct, I am at fault for the brevity of my comment, I should have been more specific by saying convincing the people in NJ who have the power to effect changes in the laws that prevent tesla from selling their vehicles directly to the consumer.

there is a a lot of whining over how bad, how out of touch the law preventing the direct sales by tesla but I have not seen ONE person who has a clue as to how to fix the situation.