Official Tesla Model S thread

[Ogi]

All that is neither here nor there. At this point range is the biggest obstacle to move this product forward -and frankly this was known from before this car went on the market.
- If this platform does not allow for any larger area for battery pack then it was not a good choice for development of a series of EVs.
- if this was never the platform for development of a series, then after all this time on the market...where is the next one from Nissan? Shouldnt they have made it and been selling it by now instead of surveying the owners of a car that has overtaken them, partly by choosing a platform that allows for development of multiple vehicles?

Again you have to sit and and consider that Nissan is a well-established carmaker with no shortage of engineering, design and market research resources. No shortage of car platforms of various sizes either.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

If nissan is lacking vision in electrification what does that say about the other 94% of the industry?

Saying Nissan lacks vision is like saying the match/game is over after first five minutes. We still don't know whether it is better to use inherently dangerous Li Co cells or inherently safe Li Mn cells.

Comparing Tesla & Nissan strategy is like comparing a Corolla & BMW 7 series and declaring that Toyota has no vision compared to BMW. In 3 years we will know - let us see how the next gen Leaf/LE compares to next gen Tesla.

+1
And submitted for your consideration there are tens of thousands of people driving around in leafs who could no more afford a 70k+ model s than to fly around in their own personal G5. It hasn't attracted the spotlight like tesla but it's still progress. IMO both are daring efforts to be commended. I'll reserve my criticism for the majority of other manufacturers who haven't shown one iota of vision or leadership.

And for all the tesla fanboys, a little caution might suit you well. They still face a ton of risks.

 

[evnow]

If Nissan was a US company and Tesla a Japanese company, Nissan would have got a lot more credit & Tesla not as much.

In terms of strategy & vision - both Nissan & Tesla are on the right track. Tesla had to come down from high priced vehicles - they had no other choice.

Given that Nissan is a mass market OEM, they had to start with a low end EV and mass market it. I'm (along with a 100,000 other Leaf owners) are glad that Nissan followed this path - rather than make a $70k land barge.

I'm also very happy with the way Tesla has progressed.

 

[palmermd]

Can we keep this thread about the tesla model s and keep the discussions about tesla versus Nissans business strategies elsewhere.

 

[Berlino]

There's a Tesla-Taxi in operation in Quebec City. In North America, it's believed to be a first (limos don't count.) http://instagram.com/TeslaTaxi#

In any case, after one week the driver estimates that 85% of his clients had never heard of Tesla before. He regrets not being able to broadcast their reactions.

 

[palmermd]

Another blog post from Elon regarding vehicle safety related to the summer fire episode.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesla-adds-titanium-underbody-shield-and-aluminum-deflector-plates-model-s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[edatoakrun]

Another blog post from Elon regarding vehicle safety related to the summer fire episode.

http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesla-adds-titanium-underbody-shield-and-aluminum-deflector-plates-model-s" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Elon Musk:

...We believe these changes will also help prevent a fire resulting from an extremely high speed impact...

It is a near-certainty that an S will eventually crash and burn, killing its occupants, and there will be gory photos, videos, and headlines.

Will this be fair, in consideration of the far higher risks of fire inherent in every ICEV crash?

Of course not.

But how hard will it be for the decedent's (edit) lawyers to convince a jury that Tesla chose to use "cheap flammable" batteries in it's ~$100k cars, even though "safer" batteries were available?

You have to wonder if the consideration of alternate future battery technologies is one of the "risks" holding up Panasonic's investment:

Panasonic Corp. (6752), Tesla Motors Inc. (TSLA)’s primary supplier of lithium-ion cells for its electric Model S sedans, hasn’t committed to investing in a massive U.S. battery plant proposed by Tesla’s Elon Musk.

Joining Tesla’s “Gigafactory” battery project would raise investment risks, Panasonic President Kazuhiro Tsuga told reporters at a briefing in Tokyo. Tesla, which announced plans for the facility in February, said it’s reviewing potential sites in four southwestern U.S. states. The plant may require as much as $5 billion to build and employ about 6,500 people by 2020, the Palo Alto, California-based company said.

“Our approach is to make investments step by step,” Tsuga said yesterday. “Elon plans to produce more affordable models besides Model S, and I understand his thinking and would like to cooperate as much as we can. But the investment risk is definitely larger.”

Musk, who is also Tesla’s co-founder and biggest investor, has said Panasonic may be involved in the factory. However, the Osaka, Japan-based company’s participation is “not 100 percent confirmed,” he told Bloomberg Television last month.

...Tesla relies on Panasonic for the battery materials, said Menahem Anderman, president of Total Battery Consulting Inc., in Oregon House, California. If Panasonic isn’t involved, that will make the factory much more of a challenge, he said.

“Our battery production depends on Tesla’s sales, so we have been closely monitoring them,” Tsuga said. “We exchange our opinion on future sales on a monthly basis with Tesla.”

Panasonic fell 2.7 percent to 1,159 yen as of the midday trading break in Tokyo. Tesla declined 2.6 percent to $207.32 at yesterday’s close in New York, trimming its gain this year to 38 percent.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-27/panasonic-hesitant-to-commit-to-musk-s-tesla-battery-gigafactory.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[Stoaty]

But how hard will it be for the decadent's lawyers to convince a jury that Tesla chose to use "cheap flammable" batteries in it's ~$100k cars, even though "safer" batteries were available?

decadent - characterized by decay or decline, as in being self-indulgent or morally corrupt

Are you saying that a Tesla owner is self-indulgent, or does that only apply if they are a decedent?

 

[dgpcolorado]

I have some questions about the Model S and I am finding the Tesla forum difficult to wade through, so I thought I'd ask the owners here.

1) I am aware that the Model S will give a measure of idealized miles of range (right?), which is a useful ruler, but how does the car report fuel: %SOC? kWh? If %SOC, does it show 0% as empty and 100% as full or does the SOC include the restricted portions of the battery?

2) Does the car have any sort of battery capacity measurement — perhaps hidden — as the LEAF does? Even the Tesla battery packs will degrade with time and cycles, albeit more slowly than the LEAF packs. (The reason I ask is that I am curious how one would check the health of a used Tesla before buying it. Not a big deal now while all cars are still fairly new but it would become more important in a few years as older cars hit the used market.)


Like some others here, I consider the Supercharger network a paradigm shift in EV utility (an EV only — no ICE — household becomes practical). And I am hopeful that Tesla will eventually succeed in bringing the Model E to market, although with the delays with the Model X, I suppose that the "E" won't arrive until 2017 at the earliest. And it remains to be seen if it will be "affordable".

The other option, of course, is to pick up a used Model S in a few years when some current owners trade up to the Model X, to a newer "S" (perhaps with AWD), or to another car. As you well know, current used prices are very high since supply hasn't matched demand. That situation should change eventually.

 

[Zythryn]

The Model S will show remaining range in miles. You can either set it for ideal, or rated.
"Ideal" is 55mph, flat highway, no HVAC.
"Rated" is calibrated to the EPA rated range of 265/208.
There is no straight SOC % available to the user at this time without using 3rd party apps.
The service centers can access this info. However, I believe to get a good reading they have to run the battery down to a low SOC and then fully charge it, so it takes some time.

As a rough estimate, I use the rated range after a range charge and compare it to 265. In my case, that is a 4% drop over 18 months and 28,000 miles.

 

[DaveEV]

As a rough estimate, I use the rated range after a range charge and compare it to 265. In my case, that is a 4% drop over 18 months and 28,000 miles.

Are you on the just released 5.9 firmware yet? Many users are reporting a bump in the rated charge reading after upgrading unless they are someone who uses a rated charge frequently and especially if they normally only charge to say 70-80% instead of 90%. Your pack is doing better than it appears.

(I wish my LEAF pack was only at 4% after 28k miles! Heck, I'd be happy with just 4% loss/year instead of 20% after 3 years or about 7%/year!)

 

[dgpcolorado]

The Model S will show remaining range in miles. You can either set it for ideal, or rated.
"Ideal" is 55mph, flat highway, no HVAC.
"Rated" is calibrated to the EPA rated range of 265/208.

I was under the impression that there was a user adjustable setting, so that's not true?

I'm curious, in real use what is the difference between Ideal and Rated? (Examples?) I presume that Ideal gives a higher number than Rated, right?

There is no straight SOC % available to the user at this time without using 3rd party apps.

Do you mean apps that use mileage efficiency numbers and Rated/Ideal miles to estimate SOC, as opposed to something that reads actual data from the car (like our Gid-meters)?

The service centers can access this info. However, I believe to get a good reading they have to run the battery down to a low SOC and then fully charge it, so it takes some time.

As a rough estimate, I use the rated range after a range charge and compare it to 265. In my case, that is a 4% drop over 18 months and 28,000 miles.

That's interesting! So, barring software changes like drees mentioned, you really can track the battery health over time.

Thanks for the info. I had read some suggestions about how to use the Supercharger Network efficiently with respect to time and they make a lot more sense now.

 

[Zythryn]

The Model S will show remaining range in miles. You can either set it for ideal, or rated.
"Ideal" is 55mph, flat highway, no HVAC.
"Rated" is calibrated to the EPA rated range of 265/208.

I was under the impression that there was a user adjustable setting, so that's not true?

There is, unless I am misunderstanding what you are looking for?
As I said, you can set the display for ideal or rated miles.

There is also one other range available on the main console which is the range predicted based on your last 5, 15 or 30 miles.

I'm curious, in real use what is the difference between Ideal and Rated? (Examples?) I presume that Ideal gives a higher number than Rated, right?

For the 85kWh pack ideal is 300, rated is 265. Of course, temp and driving behavior affect both.

There is no straight SOC % available to the user at this time without using 3rd party apps.

Do you mean apps that use mileage efficiency numbers and Rated/Ideal miles to estimate SOC, as opposed to something that reads actual data from the car (like our Gid-meters)?[/quote]

No, there is a program some use to get all sorts of data as well as log it. I have not used it myself. I do believe SOC is one of the pieces of data. I believe it is called Visible Tesla or something like that.
I am not sure how the SOC is calculated though.

 

[Zythryn]

As a rough estimate, I use the rated range after a range charge and compare it to 265. In my case, that is a 4% drop over 18 months and 28,000 miles.

Are you on the just released 5.9 firmware yet? Many users are reporting a bump in the rated charge reading after upgrading unless they are someone who uses a rated charge frequently and especially if they normally only charge to say 70-80% instead of 90%. Your pack is doing better than it appears.

(I wish my LEAF pack was only at 4% after 28k miles! Heck, I'd be happy with just 4% loss/year instead of 20% after 3 years or about 7%/year!)

Yes, I am on 5.9.
Last fall when the tested it at 18k it was just under a 3% loss. If after the initial steep loss which is expected, it has evened out to about 1% per 10,000 miles I will be ecstatic!

 

[dgpcolorado]

...There is also one other range available on the main console which is the range predicted based on your last 5, 15 or 30 miles.

That's sort of the Tesla version of the GOM except that it is more user adjustable. For long freeway trips over simple terrain that could be helpful. When driving through mountains, not so much.

I was wondering if there was a user adjustable setting where it would give you a range based on a driver input of expected miles/kWh. (If I knew, for example, that over the next leg of the trip I would get about 3.5 miles/kWh I could enter that and get a range based on that parameter.) So, I guess not.

I presume that you learn to compare how your rated miles decline versus actual miles traveled and then to extrapolate that to actual range given driving conditions, right? A bit awkward compared to an actual fuel reading but workable.

I realize that none of this matters much in day-to-day use where the range greatly exceeds the planned trips. The reason I ask is that my understanding is that Superchargers are fastest up to 50% SOC, so it is best to arrive at one fairly low on charge and then charge only enough to make the next one, plus a reasonable reserve. I have been mulling over how one would calculate that "on the fly", so-to-speak.

...there is a program some use to get all sorts of data as well as log it. I have not used it myself. I do believe SOC is one of the pieces of data. I believe it is called Visible Tesla or something like that.
I am not sure how the SOC is calculated though.

That program might be quite helpful.

Thanks for the info.

 

[DaveEV]

In addition to rated/ideal miles, doesn't it also let you show estimated miles after averaging for "instant", 5, 15 and 30 miles (or something like that), too?

 

[GeekEV]

Although the Tesla Model S doesn't give you a SOC %, there IS a "progress bar" style readout that effectively gives you an SOC % - you just have to "eyeball it". There is no overall capacity loss meter, as others have said, like there is on the LEAF. Maybe in v6.0.

 

[LTLFTcomposite]

You may hate the guy but a lot of people listen to him. There are worse things in life than having him take your side of the argument:

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/index.html#/v/3419826911001" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

 

[evnow]

There are worse things in life than having him take your side of the argument:...

Like ?!

I miss Glenn Beck

 

[DaveinOlyWA]

As a rough estimate, I use the rated range after a range charge and compare it to 265. In my case, that is a 4% drop over 18 months and 28,000 miles.

Are you on the just released 5.9 firmware yet? Many users are reporting a bump in the rated charge reading after upgrading unless they are someone who uses a rated charge frequently and especially if they normally only charge to say 70-80% instead of 90%. Your pack is doing better than it appears.

(I wish my LEAF pack was only at 4% after 28k miles! Heck, I'd be happy with just 4% loss/year instead of 20% after 3 years or about 7%/year!)

are we seeing the same degradation rates in the 2013's yet or is it still too early to tell not counting the very early releases? i ask because LEAF Spy is telling me I have none yet at 4800 miles which lends fire to the "dropping off a cliff" degradation theory which i have little confidence in. then again with the various readings we are seeing in the 2013's, i am not sure what i think any more

we should have some in the southern areas with LEAFs approaching 7-8k or so...